Contador vs. Froome

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He was one class above Dumoulin - had Dumoulin been a better descender and/or not waited for Reichenbach, and just taken matters into his own hands, I doubt he would have lost this much. Froome was slightly better than Dumoulin today and yes, because of the sheer insanity of Finestre, it was very likely he was gonna make it.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
He was one class above Dumoulin - had Dumoulin been a better descender and/or not waited for Reichenbach, and just taken matters into his own hands, I doubt he would have lost this much. Froome was slightly better than Dumoulin today and yes, because of the sheer insanity of Finestre, it was very likely he was gonna make it.
He was a class above the combined forces of Dumoulin, Reichenbach and Pinot and after 70+ km in the wind building up a gap of 3.5 minutes, lost what, 10 seconds on the final climb? That is insane.
I've said it before, but I started watching cycling in 2007 and have never ever seen anything even remotely comparable to this.
One of our Eurosport commentators, Karsten Kroon, an ex-pro (so he knows his stuff), was adamant Froome wouldn't make it. "We have 80km to go! We have 70km to go! 60km to go! There is no way he can keep this up!" Imagine how shell-shocked he was once he started realizing Froome would keep that up and in fact, continue building his advantage.
 
one can only fancy what appreciation it would induce if contador delivered similar performance, but ok let's call anything we like glorious and imperious and anything we dislike romotic and unhuman. any yet contador being retired sadly didn't make some posters kinder and smarter. froome still sucks and there is no justuce in the world when he wins.
 
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LaFlorecita said:
dacooley said:
one can only fancy what appreciation it would induce if contador delivered similar performance, but ok let's call anything we like glorious and imperious and anything we dislike romotic and unhuman. any yet contador being retired sadly didn't make some poster kinder and smarter. -)
And unfortunately Contador retiring also didn't stop you from trolling his fans!
what does it have to do with trolling? Contador was smashing the whole field in the last stage of Tirreno 2014 and it was fairly called god-like racing, while froome doing the same becomes a little personal tragedy. I'm just trying to find any logics in this and fail to do it. :confused:
 
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dacooley said:
LaFlorecita said:
dacooley said:
one can only fancy what appreciation it would induce if contador delivered similar performance, but ok let's call anything we like glorious and imperious and anything we dislike romotic and unhuman. any yet contador being retired sadly didn't make some poster kinder and smarter. -)
And unfortunately Contador retiring also didn't stop you from trolling his fans!
what does it have to do with trolling? Contador was smashing the whole field in the last stage of Tirreno 2014 and it was fairly called god-like racing, while froome doing the same becomes a little personal tragedy. I'm just trying to find any logics in this and fail to do it. :confused:
If you can't see why Froome's performance yesterday was 5 classes above Contador's on stage 5 of that Tirreno, I can't help you. It should be obvious.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
He was one class above Dumoulin - had Dumoulin been a better descender and/or not waited for Reichenbach, and just taken matters into his own hands, I doubt he would have lost this much. Froome was slightly better than Dumoulin today and yes, because of the sheer insanity of Finestre, it was very likely he was gonna make it.
Dumoulin would've lost a lot if he'd ridden his own TT. He had spend time waiting for Reichenbach, he had somebody taking turns with him, and when in end he was going all out he pulled back exactly 0 seconds from the highest time gap.

Maybe he can save a minute in the descents, and a little bit because inefficienct cooperation at times, but I don't believe Dumoulin saves the pink jersey if he soloes it.
 
Here's the thing: Froome will never, ever win the hearts-and-minds battle.

And that hurts him. To an extent that's what yesterday was about: this is the first time we've really seen Froome win anything racing from a position of weakness - he's always raced from a position of strength, being the best rider in the race and on the strongest team, laying down a marker early and then controlling everything thereafter. That's always been the Sky way, back since they first started having successes - it was the best way to succeed while Wiggins was leader, and Froome has inherited that template. In fairness, however, if you look at 2008-9 in that Astana team, that was more or less the way that Alberto succeeded, not so much in 2007 as he was still fairly unknown, but if you look at the Vuelta in 2008 and the 2009 Tour, the only intrigue was really created by the fratricide going on within those Astana teams. But ever since then, Alberto hasn't had the best team at his disposal. In 2010 he was still strong enough to get the results with the less strong but still sturdy team he'd assembled with guys like Vino and David de la Fuente alongside his usual running buddies for the mountains, but since then we can safely say that Froome has, almost at all times, had a greater domestique corps at his disposal, and so racing from the front has meant we've never really seen Froome race from behind, and those few times we had have been almost without exception the most interesting races he's done and a far greater proportion of the races won by Froome have been those classed as dull.

Another factor is, Froome just isn't fun to follow. He doesn't cut a very likable or sympathetic figure, he doesn't come across as very personable in interviews, his team is both a lightning rod for fans' disappointment at racing spectacle and associates him with a number of other unsympathetic characters, like a well-oiled collection of obvious movie villains - you've got the calculating bald boss with the slimy media talk, you've got the Orwellian Newspeak PR department, you used to have the po-faced Aussie career criminal, but his part in the parade of villainy has been taken on by the larger-than-life Italian thug. And that's without Froome himself, or the legions of fans who continue to parrot the team's PR and try to fix and contort reality around a story that will exonerate their man.

Because the problem is, while it will always be on his CV, so to speak, Contador's clinic indiscretion is now a footnote. Yes, Andy Schleck won the 2010 Tour and Michele Scarponi the 2011 Giro. But he got a measure of redemption vis-à-vis racing when not on the strongest team or not the strongest individual, and adding an X factor to races because of his never-say-die attitude, the kind of thing that Froome has only done for the first time just now. But it's not like Contador originally winning the 2011 Giro did not raise eyebrows, and it's not like people didn't baulk at a guy who had a CAS case hanging over him riding like that. Froome has the same air about him at this point - he will always draw that criticism that he shouldn't be on the road right now even if he's legally entitled to be - but that's also a problem of Sky's malfunctioning PR department. And while Contador won that Giro in dominant fashion, that wasn't out of the ordinary at the time, as with Froome, but Contador dominated that Giro start to finish. We have grown accustomed to a more human, more flawed Froome in this Giro, only to then be bludgeoned over the head with possibly his most dominant performance of all time.

It's also worth noting that Contador's popularity, if anything, increased when he ceased to be as dominant; his popularity in 2009-10 was artificially inflated by the fact that he stood up to Armstrong in that 2009 Astana team. It was with the 2011 Tour and the Télégraphe attack, and subsequently the 2012 Vuelta, that his popularity really soared. Sure, he still had his fans long before that, but this whole "Contador is an X factor that adds to races" only really came about once he was no longer the dominant rider in the GTs and stage races and he had to seek other ways to win. Maybe that will happen in time with Froome, but I have my doubts, because he and his ongoing association with such an unlikable team (yes, I know Contador rode for Tinkoff) is just beyond the pale for many fans. But for one more reason, which is one he can't help and which is completely subjective, but for many fans absolutely is important, especially from a clinic point of view even though it shouldn't really be relevant to it - and that's that he just looks bad on a bike.

For many fans accustomed to aspiring to elegant, classical cyclists, his inefficient nodding-dog-on-top-of-an-egg-beater style, elbows akimbo and legs whirring jerkily while staring at the stem, is impossible to swallow, because how can we talk to somebody who is new to the sport, and show them a race, and when they ask "so, who's the best cyclist in the world?" have to say "that guy" and point to the guy who looks so inelegant, clumsy and uncomfortable in the sea of riders who look far more graceful and effortless? It's much easier to explain to somebody why other riders - almost any other rider with a modicum of success - are top riders. Look at Dumoulin's (or before him, Wiggins') TT position, effortless, without motion in the upper body, minimal frontal area, flat back, fluid pedal stroke - ideal. Our hypothetical non-cycling-fan friend could then ask "so why can that guy only just beat Froome, who's rocking from side to side with his knees out and his arms and back up like a spider raising its front legs?" and what can we say? Well, he's just got way more power, evidently, otherwise he'd be losing time hand over fist because they would be benefiting from airflow and efficiency of effort and so on. And it's interesting that it was the time trial position - which had that awkward constant shuffling of his position as he slid forward in the seat over and over - that attracted the most criticism about Contador. Look at Contador's, Quintana's or - let's be fair here - Yates' climbing styles (at least in punchy ascents in the latter's case), and our hypothetical non-cycling-fan friend could say "yes, these guys look like they're comfortable going uphill. It makes sense that they be among the best on a climb". And then they could marvel at the spectacle "ah, but they're losing time hand over fist to the guy who's riding with his legs whirring like a blender and jerking his elbows like he's doing an Ian Curtis dance - so why don't the others ride like that if it's so successful?" "Well, because it's far less efficient" "So if it's less efficient, why would they be losing time to him?" "He clearly has a lot more power than them to be able to overcome the discrepancy in the technique with the wasted motion and still be putting time into them". The hypothetical friend could then wonder, well, if Froome did ride in an efficient TT position, or if he climbed like those graceful pure climbers, just how dominant could he be, seeing as he's already the best and he's leaving all this potential performance benefit untapped?

For a new fan, these answers yield questions, but for experienced fans, they're just part of the price of admission. Suspension of disbelief is always an important factor for cycling fans, due to the long history of doping in the sport - and this is based on a number of factors. And one of these is the riding style as mentioned above. If somebody is beating a long list of former dopers, it's much easier to rationalise this if they are somebody who has been putting out incredible power outputs all through their life, and who rides in an efficient style that allows them the maximum transference of their power output to the road, or have shown great tactical acumen to outsmart the opposition. Now, Froome does not fulfil two out of these three criteria; his results were not sufficient for fans to rationalise him as a great prospect before his breakout Vuelta, and his technique appears at least on the surface to actually hinder transference of power output on the road, meaning his power output has to be higher than others just to match them, which then feels doubly strange when he is kicking them to all parts (especially here when he's been suffering for two weeks). The other one, I think he does just about fulfil; the fact that most of his victories have been predicated on a simple bludgeoning tactic: "have strongest rider in race flanked by strongest helpers. Ride on the front until everybody drops" have rather disguised the fact that he has developed a much stronger tactical mind than he usually gets given credit for - stages such as the Peyresourde descent victory or whatever that stage was he gained a few seconds with Sagan off the front in some wind show that he's capable of riding smart. But I'm not going to be praising Jafferau 2018 as a great tactical masterpiece of a stage in the same way as Piau-Engaly '99, Pajáres '05 or Fuente Dé '12, because it wasn't; those were the team and the riders outsmarting the opposition. Sky didn't outsmart the opposition yesterday, they just did their usual technique, further away. It was more like last year's Alto da Torre stage only Froome was solo rather than having a teammate; he won by being the strongest rider and riding away after the team dropped everybody else - he just had to do it from further away this time.

But the thing is, my hypothetical new fan there is naïve. They don't necessarily know anything at all about cycling, so they don't have access to a number of the external factors, some of which Froome has no control over and some of which he does, that also help explain fans' reluctance to take him to heart or give him the place in cycling's pantheon that his palmarès undoubtedly merits.
 
Red Rick: from a GC perspective, he did not hold the cards until yesterday. He had been forced to race from behind, which has been antithetical to the way he was raced almost all of his GTs to date, where he has generally gone big early in the race, then protected - usually taking the Tour lead around about stage 8, and in the Vuelta leading all the way from stage 3. This banking everything on the final couple of stages has usually been what others have tried to do to Froome - Quintana in 2013 and 2015, for example. The last few days (post-Formigal) in the 2016 Vuelta are the only direct comparison we have since he became the superstar GT rider he has been for the last 6 years or so.

rick: you honestly think Froome is ever going to enjoy the popularity that late-career Contador had in the twilight of his career? Or the popularity and crossover ability that Wiggins had in the UK? He's left plenty of clues over the years that the fact Wiggins remains more popular than him even though he's now far eclipsed Wiggins' (road) achievements has been a source of great frustration to him. I definitely think that the amount of credit he is given as a cyclist is not commensurate with the palmarès he has, and I do think that how he looks on a bike, and the circumstances of his sudden rise to the top of the sport, and the team he rides for, all contribute significantly to that. Remember, Contador had guys with steaks on fishing hooks waving in his face in 2011, but he started off from a position of greater popularity pre-CAS than Froome has ever enjoyed (on a global scale at least, obviously both had pretty significant regional popularity). I don't think it's exactly me making the most absurd of suppositions to say that Froome has not been taken to heart by the general fanbase in the way most riders with his palmarès and staying power have. I thought that was pretty obvious, to be totally honest.
 
Great post LS
I startest watching cycling when Contador became a dominant gt cyclist and I absolutely hated him. I was absolutely raging when he won the 2011 giro and was incredibly happy when he got banned. Now I must say, I was a kid back then so every emotion, no matter if positive or negative was immediately multiplied by ten and rational thinking wasn't my biggest strength back then. So if I was as old as I'm now I probably never would have felt the same kind of hate towards him. Still, even in 2015 I was still rooting against him despite not hating him anymore, but the way he rode just made me like him more and more until I officially declared myself a fan in 2016. in other words, I became a contador fan when he didn't win *** anymore and when he constantly blew himself with suicidal attacks. Froome actually did that kind of stuff before too, in the 2017 Dauphine when he and his team had a perfect plan to crush Porte. The plan worked, Porte got distanced, but Froome wasn't strong enough to win so it was fuglsang who profited and won the gc. I never felt more empathy for Froome than in that stage. Yesterday I thought he has finally taken that attitude to the big stage and would be risking everything in order to get a 1% chance of winning the giro. But the moment he started to gain time on sestriere I realized this isn't a story of heroism, this is a story of Armstrong pretending to be contador. This was Froome showing the world that he is the most aggressive bike racer in the world while in reality making the most calculated attack of his career. I might write this in the heat of the moment (although this moment is already almost a day long, so maybe this actually isn't a moment at all) but right now I'm back to were I was before this giro. Chapeau to Froome for being the strongest but that's it.
 
Nov 29, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Another factor is, Froome just isn't fun to follow.

I've been watching cycling since 2000 (TDF) or 2007 (all races) and I can honestly say I've never had as much fun "following" another rider.

You made a nice post but at the end of the day it's just an opinion. Some people will agree, some will not but you can't state it as a fact.
 
Gigs_98 said:
But the moment he started to gain time on sestriere I realized this isn't a story of heroism, this is a story of Armstrong pretending to be contador. This was Froome showing the world that he is the most aggressive bike racer in the world while in reality making the most calculated attack of his career. I might write this in the heat of the moment (although this moment is already almost a day long, so maybe this actually isn't a moment at all) but right now I'm back to were I was before this giro. Chapeau to Froome for being the strongest but that's it.

I think that's a very, very good way of putting it
 
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rick james said:
I don't think he cares one bit about popularity...its only Bertie fans want everyone to love their idol
a) are you possibly mistaking me for a Contador fan?
b) that former bit is just as subjective an assessment as mine. I've always got the impression that he really resented Wiggins' popularity. Maybe part of that is by conflation with Michelle, in fairness, because she's always voiced that annoyance at Chris' not being beloved a lot more than he himself has. However, I also neglected to mention her as another factor in why Froome is difficult for a lot of fans to warm to. I always found his interviews fairly bland but inoffensive and he seemed like a decent enough guy, before she started muscling in on them, and we know that she and Cath Wiggins have had their disagreements.
 
Red Rick said:
Gigs_98 said:
But the moment he started to gain time on sestriere I realized this isn't a story of heroism, this is a story of Armstrong pretending to be contador. This was Froome showing the world that he is the most aggressive bike racer in the world while in reality making the most calculated attack of his career. I might write this in the heat of the moment (although this moment is already almost a day long, so maybe this actually isn't a moment at all) but right now I'm back to were I was before this giro. Chapeau to Froome for being the strongest but that's it.

I think that's a very, very good way of putting it

Utterly, utterly, utterly ridiculous post. Unless you also think that 80km solos for 2,5 hours to make up 3 minutes can be calculated.

Says it all that yet another Contador fan is struggling to give it credit.
 
Red Rick said:
Gigs_98 said:
But the moment he started to gain time on sestriere I realized this isn't a story of heroism, this is a story of Armstrong pretending to be contador. This was Froome showing the world that he is the most aggressive bike racer in the world while in reality making the most calculated attack of his career. I might write this in the heat of the moment (although this moment is already almost a day long, so maybe this actually isn't a moment at all) but right now I'm back to were I was before this giro. Chapeau to Froome for being the strongest but that's it.

I think that's a very, very good way of putting it

He at least didn't give up and pack his bags for the Tour, like most people thought he would and suggested he do

You gotta at least give him kudos for fighting on, if nothing else
 
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rick james said:
you seem to think Froome wants to be loved from everyone...I don't think he cares one bit
And as I said, while you're calling me out for making subjective assessments, that's precisely what you've just made. And I just pointed out that it's an assessment I don't share, although also softening my position on further consideration due to factors I hadn't taken into account in my initial post.
 
Red Rick said:
Gigs_98 said:
But the moment he started to gain time on sestriere I realized this isn't a story of heroism, this is a story of Armstrong pretending to be contador. This was Froome showing the world that he is the most aggressive bike racer in the world while in reality making the most calculated attack of his career. I might write this in the heat of the moment (although this moment is already almost a day long, so maybe this actually isn't a moment at all) but right now I'm back to were I was before this giro. Chapeau to Froome for being the strongest but that's it.

I think that's a very, very good way of putting it
of course you would
 
roundabout said:
Red Rick said:
Gigs_98 said:
But the moment he started to gain time on sestriere I realized this isn't a story of heroism, this is a story of Armstrong pretending to be contador. This was Froome showing the world that he is the most aggressive bike racer in the world while in reality making the most calculated attack of his career. I might write this in the heat of the moment (although this moment is already almost a day long, so maybe this actually isn't a moment at all) but right now I'm back to were I was before this giro. Chapeau to Froome for being the strongest but that's it.

I think that's a very, very good way of putting it

Utterly, utterly, utterly ridiculous post. Unless you also think that 80km solos for 2,5 hours to make up 3 minutes can be calculated.

Says it all that yet another Contador fan is struggling to give it credit.
I give credit for brutal strength alright

But given the GC standings at that point and how good Froome was yesterday, going solo from 80km out was a very simple decision once the break didn't get away.

It's the Colle delle Finestre. You're not caught by a peloton of 30 riders chasing you, it's tiny groups where noone is fresh. Worst case scenario, he gets caught by the Dumoulin group and still gains time in GC.

I don't think this was some genius, super brave move. I think it was the logical thing to try.