Contador's fframe of mind and his attacks in the mountain stages

[ggusta]

Alberto does understand that he won the tour and that he can stop complaining. No?

Tour's been over for like 2+ months. AC has REALLY gotten inside your head, hasn't he? Shake it off, dude.

Bummer for you

 

[HL2037]

would have been awesome no see 3 teammates on the podium though, despite how boring it ay have looked, it would be a historic tour

How was that ever going to happen? Even if Contador and Klöden had tied a rope to Armstrongs bike and pulled him, they would not have been able to get him past Andy Schleck.

 

[peloton]

How was that ever going to happen? Even if Contador and Klöden had tied a rope to Armstrongs bike and pulled him, they would not have been able to get him past Andy Schleck.

Exactly.

The fact that Andy beat Lance (& Klöden) made it impossible for Astana to sweep the podium, even with Levi.

They could have ended 1 and 2 with Contador and Leipheimer, but Andy was anyway going to podium since he beat both LA and Klöden, no matter who attacked and where.

 

[HL2037]

Naaah, Andy would have taken Leipheimer too...

 

[peloton]

Naaah, Andy would have taken Leipheimer too...

probably, but we'll never know...

What we do know is that Astana would not have swept the podium, even with LL, thanks to Andy.

 

[Anonymous]

How was that ever going to happen? Even if Contador and Klöden had tied a rope to Armstrongs bike and pulled him, they would not have been able to get him past Andy Schleck.

Armstrong really only lost time on the 17th stage to Schleck. He hesitated to go with the Schleck brothers, Klodi and Contador, and as a result had to mark wiggins and vandevelde like a good teammate! If you were watching, he dropped the garmin boys with ease once he let contador get a better lead.

He admitted it was a tactical error that day (to wait, since contador unnecessarily ended up attacking and dislodging Kloden anyway). Andy Schleck gained about 2 minutes on Armstrong and Kloden that day. Most of this was due to Contador attacking when he didn't need to, since he was never going to take time on the S. brothers on a stage like that.

So IMO, without the attack by contador, Klodi would have finished at the same time (keeping him well and truly on the podium), and armstrong would have lost about a quarter of the time he did to Schleck. In which case, Podium = Astana = History!!

 

[Publicus]

Armstrong really only lost time on the 17th stage to Schleck. He hesitated to go with the Schleck brothers, Klodi and Contador, and as a result had to mark wiggins and vandevelde like a good teammate! If you were watching, he dropped the garmin boys with ease once he let contador get a better lead.

He admitted it was a tactical error that day (to wait, since contador unnecessarily ended up attacking and dislodging Kloden anyway). Andy Schleck gained about 2 minutes on Armstrong and Kloden that day. Most of this was due to Contador attacking when he didn't need to, since he was never going to take time on the S. brothers on a stage like that.

So IMO, without the attack by contador, Klodi would have finished at the same time (keeping him well and truly on the podium), and armstrong would have lost about a quarter of the time he did to Schleck. In which case, Podium = Astana = History!!

He lost time on Stage 15 (Verbier). And he didn't hesitate to go with them, he couldn't follow the attack of Andy, which AC and Kloden did. He got stuck because he was slow-pedaling trying to force Wiggins to lead and looking at his pedals. Frank saw him almost run into the back of Wiggins and took off. Lance was stuck because of his own inattentiveness. Not because he hesitated.

As for Kloden's implosion, you don't know what you are talking about. Kloden was on red for a good bit (he was sucking AC's wheel the entire way) and gave AC the ok to go (how many MJ wearers/Team leaders have you heard ASK before attacking? And how do you divine that he was NEVER going to take time on the Schleck Brothers when he had done it at will on two other stages (Andorra and Verbier)? He didn't NEED to take any more time on them, but it's not clear that before he attacked he wouldn't be successful (the Schleck's looked like they were out of bullets).

But assuming AC doesn't attack and Kloden is able to stay with the group until the finish, Lance ends up in by my calculations 4th Place, 1'38" behind Kloden and 1'29" behind Andy Schleck. Not sure how you surmise that Lance would have lost a quarter of the time he lost. He lost the time he lost because of his tactical error. Not because AC counter-attacked, or Kloden imploded. Assuming those two things don't happen, doesn't change his bone-headed move earlier in the day.

Now the real question is would JB allow Kloden (or Kloden allow himself) to ride for his own podium position? At Ventoux, he was turning himself inside out to shepard Armstrong up the mountain, so I have my doubts. In any event, you are entitled to your opinion, just not your own facts.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Warning: post contains sarcasm; not suitable for fanboys

Armstrong really only lost time on the 17th stage to Schleck.....had to mark wiggins and vandevelde like a good teammate!

Yeah, that was really sweet of Lance. No way AC could have dealt to Wiggo and CVV without his help. The great thing is that he was rewarded for his selfless and brilliant mano-a-mano with Wiggins, by gaining time on Wiggins, which is what got Lance onto the podium ahead of Wiggins.... I like it when people are rewarded for their good deeds in this life, and don't have to wait to cash in their Karma in the next.

... Andy Schleck gained about 2 minutes on Armstrong and Kloden that day. Most of this was due to Contador attacking when he didn't need to.

Absolutely, because with the possibility of an Astana 123 looming, there is no way the Schlecks would have attacked to see if they could drop Kloden. That's because they don't understand racing, and neither does Riis.

without the attack by contador, Klodi would have finished at the same time (keeping him well and truly on the podium), and Armstrong would have lost about a quarter of the time he did to Schleck.

And IF that happened, no way Andy would have attacked Lance and risked leaving Frank behind on Vontoux. Even if it meant that neither of them would get onto the podium, he would have sacrificed the race to wait for his bro.....

Thanks for bringing this stuff up again guys - the opportunity to vent a bit was just what I needed.

 

[peloton]

He lost time on Stage 15 (Verbier). And he didn't hesitate to go with them, he couldn't follow the attack of Andy, which AC and Kloden did. He got stuck because he was slow-pedaling trying to force Wiggins to lead and looking at his pedals. Frank saw him almost run into the back of Wiggins and took off. Lance was stuck because of his own inattentiveness. Not because he hesitated.

As for Kloden's implosion, you don't know what you are talking about. Kloden was on red for a good bit (he was sucking AC's wheel the entire way) and gave AC the ok to go (how many MJ wearers/Team leaders have you heard ASK before attacking? And how do you divine that he was NEVER going to take time on the Schleck Brothers when he had done it at will on two other stages (Andorra and Verbier)? He didn't NEED to take any more time on them, but it's not clear that before he attacked he wouldn't be successful (the Schleck's looked like they were out of bullets).

But assuming AC doesn't attack and Kloden is able to stay with the group until the finish, Lance ends up in by my calculations 4th Place, 1'38" behind Kloden and 1'29" behind Andy Schleck. Not sure how you surmise that Lance would have lost a quarter of the time he lost. He lost the time he lost because of his tactical error. Not because AC counter-attacked, or Kloden imploded. Assuming those two things don't happen, doesn't change his bone-headed move earlier in the day.

Now the real question is would JB allow Kloden (or Kloden allow himself) to ride for his own podium position? At Ventoux, he was turning himself inside out to shepard Armstrong up the mountain, so I have my doubts. In any event, you are entitled to your opinion, just not your own facts.

+1

The TT was where the Astana podium sweep got finally flushed, had LL been there, Astana might have ended 1-2, but never beat Andy for the podium.

Lance's TT was not as it used to be...

 

[Anonymous]

As for Kloden's implosion, you don't know what you are talking about. Kloden was on red for a good bit (he was sucking AC's wheel the entire way) and gave AC the ok to go (how many MJ wearers/Team leaders have you heard ASK before attacking? And how do you divine that he was NEVER going to take time on the Schleck Brothers when he had done it at will on two other stages (Andorra and Verbier)? He didn't NEED to take any more time on them, but it's not clear that before he attacked he wouldn't be successful (the Schleck's looked like they were out of bullets).

But assuming AC doesn't attack and Kloden is able to stay with the group until the finish, Lance ends up in by my calculations 4th Place, 1'38" behind Kloden and 1'29" behind Andy Schleck. Not sure how you surmise that Lance would have lost a quarter of the time he lost. He lost the time he lost because of his tactical error. Not because AC counter-attacked, or Kloden imploded. Assuming those two things don't happen, doesn't change his bone-headed move earlier in the day.
QUOTE]

He was NEVER going to take time on Schleck on a stage like that, purely becoz on the stages like that he DIDNT take time on Schleck!!

Verbier and Andorra were mountain top finishes. stage 17 was NOT!! Hence, on a descent finish, Contador was NEVER going to take time on Schlecks.

So when he attacked, he dropped Kloden, and as a result, the Schlecks upped the pace big time, which put time into lance and kloden and resulted in Andy being on the podium.

Before Contador attacked, the "virtual" GC had lance at least 30 seconds above Andy Schleck. And, as you said, the Schlecks had run out of bullets. This is where I think armstrong 'would have' lost a quarter of the time he did. They were so tired and the gap to armstrong was going to fall, given how easily he dislogded the garmin boys. This is why I said Armstrong would have lost a quarter of the time, becoz if he is up 30 seconds on virtual GC, and both the schleck contador group were travelling at the same speed as the armstrong/garmin group, I honestly think Armstrong would have stayed above Andy. (30 seconds virtual had contador not attacked divided by 2 minutes lost in reality = one quarter )

IMO contadors attack separated the schlecks from the astana boys. Had he not done it, I doubt Andy could have gotten 2nd place (obviously, he may have attacked the ventoux stage, but we will never know) and I think it would have been Contador, Armstrong, Kloden on the podium in that order.

 

[progressor]

There is certainly a lot of dudes here getting some serious wood over the mere thought of Saint Contador - not that theres any thing wrong with that - but it seems to have affected their brains and made them attack anyone who remotely suggests that perfect contador vs evil lance is a just a tad imbalanced.

Not that there's anything wrong with convincing yourself that a guy who won the tour 7 times isn't really any good at what he does They all know he was doped beyond anything any of his rivals could ever dream of - and would have been last every day of any tour if he hadn't

 

[Runitout]

He was NEVER going to take time on Schleck on a stage like that, purely becoz on the stages like that he DIDNT take time on Schleck!!

Verbier and Andorra were mountain top finishes. stage 17 was NOT!! Hence, on a descent finish, Contador was NEVER going to take time on Schlecks.

So when he attacked, he dropped Kloden, and as a result, the Schlecks upped the pace big time, which put time into lance and kloden and resulted in Andy being on the podium.

Before Contador attacked, the "virtual" GC had lance at least 30 seconds above Andy Schleck. And, as you said, the Schlecks had run out of bullets. This is where I think armstrong 'would have' lost a quarter of the time he did. They were so tired and the gap to armstrong was going to fall, given how easily he dislogded the garmin boys. This is why I said Armstrong would have lost a quarter of the time, becoz if he is up 30 seconds on virtual GC, and both the schleck contador group were travelling at the same speed as the armstrong/garmin group, I honestly think Armstrong would have stayed above Andy. (30 seconds virtual had contador not attacked divided by 2 minutes lost in reality = one quarter )

IMO contadors attack separated the schlecks from the astana boys. Had he not done it, I doubt Andy could have gotten 2nd place (obviously, he may have attacked the ventoux stage, but we will never know) and I think it would have been Contador, Armstrong, Kloden on the podium in that order.

It was an aborted ten second dig that had no affect on the stage, let alone worth talking about two months, one world championship, and a grand tour later.

You're not going to change anyone's mind now.

 

[Publicus]

As for Kloden's implosion, you don't know what you are talking about. Kloden was on red for a good bit (he was sucking AC's wheel the entire way) and gave AC the ok to go (how many MJ wearers/Team leaders have you heard ASK before attacking? And how do you divine that he was NEVER going to take time on the Schleck Brothers when he had done it at will on two other stages (Andorra and Verbier)? He didn't NEED to take any more time on them, but it's not clear that before he attacked he wouldn't be successful (the Schleck's looked like they were out of bullets).

But assuming AC doesn't attack and Kloden is able to stay with the group until the finish, Lance ends up in by my calculations 4th Place, 1'38" behind Kloden and 1'29" behind Andy Schleck. Not sure how you surmise that Lance would have lost a quarter of the time he lost. He lost the time he lost because of his tactical error. Not because AC counter-attacked, or Kloden imploded. Assuming those two things don't happen, doesn't change his bone-headed move earlier in the day.
QUOTE]

He was NEVER going to take time on Schleck on a stage like that, purely becoz on the stages like that he DIDNT take time on Schleck!!

Verbier and Andorra were mountain top finishes. stage 17 was NOT!! Hence, on a descent finish, Contador was NEVER going to take time on Schlecks.

So when he attacked, he dropped Kloden, and as a result, the Schlecks upped the pace big time, which put time into lance and kloden and resulted in Andy being on the podium.

Before Contador attacked, the "virtual" GC had lance at least 30 seconds above Andy Schleck. And, as you said, the Schlecks had run out of bullets. This is where I think armstrong 'would have' lost a quarter of the time he did. They were so tired and the gap to armstrong was going to fall, given how easily he dislogded the garmin boys. This is why I said Armstrong would have lost a quarter of the time, becoz if he is up 30 seconds on virtual GC, and both the schleck contador group were travelling at the same speed as the armstrong/garmin group, I honestly think Armstrong would have stayed above Andy. (30 seconds virtual had contador not attacked divided by 2 minutes lost in reality = one quarter )

IMO contadors attack separated the schlecks from the astana boys. Had he not done it, I doubt Andy could have gotten 2nd place (obviously, he may have attacked the ventoux stage, but we will never know) and I think it would have been Contador, Armstrong, Kloden on the podium in that order.

This is some iron-clad logic. AC's attack apparently infused the Schlecks, who were out of bullets, with enough energy to up the pace and increase their lead over Lance by an additional one minute. I know AC is good, but I didn't think he was THAT good!

 

[Anonymous]

This is some iron-clad logic. AC's attack apparently infused the Schlecks, who were out of bullets, with enough energy to up the pace and increase their lead over Lance by an additional one minute. I know AC is good, but I didn't think he was THAT good!

Close. AC's attack dropped Kloden. The Schlecks had given up trying to dislodge AC as they had 'ran out of bullets' capable of dislodging AC.

Once, AC dropped Kloden, the brothers had enough reserves to put time into Kloden, which inadvertently put time into Armstrong.

I wouldn't call it "infusing" the Schlecks, but before he attacked, their tactic was to drop AC. After AC attacked, they realised their best strategy was to put time into the other Astanas and secure a podium position. Very logical in my eyes, don't know how you couldn't follow it

The jist of the story is - in my opinion, AC cost astana 3 on the podium when he'd already secured the yellow himself. He's a great rider, I like watching him, but I don't think he rewarded bruyneel for having a strong team who arguable is the best GT director around. 3 on the podium is probably the only thing in a GT that JB hasnt achieved yet

 

[Hugh Januss]

Close. AC's attack dropped Kloden. The Schlecks had given up trying to dislodge AC as they had 'ran out of bullets' capable of dislodging AC.

Once, AC dropped Kloden, the brothers had enough reserves to put time into Kloden, which inadvertently put time into Armstrong.

I wouldn't call it "infusing" the Schlecks, but before he attacked, their tactic was to drop AC. After AC attacked, they realised their best strategy was to put time into the other Astanas and secure a podium position. Very logical in my eyes, don't know how you couldn't follow it

The jist of the story is - in my opinion, AC cost astana 3 on the podium when he'd already secured the yellow himself. He's a great rider, I like watching him, but I don't think he rewarded bruyneel for having a strong team who arguable is the best GT director around. 3 on the podium is probably the only thing in a GT that JB hasnt achieved yet

I really can't believe we are still flogging this dead horse, but since we are I'm in. If you really think that the fact that Kloden was or wasn't clinging to the back of their train made any difference in the brothers Schleck focus or strength then you are either delusional or you have never raced a bike other than around the block.
Their focus the whole time was on gaining as much as possible over everybody and anybody they could. I think they had long since given up hope of any gains on Contador, but at the same time Kloden had already slid off the back a little on a couple of previous accelerations and I'm sure they had noted that. They did not have to worry about Kloden whether he was still hanging on or not, he was a dead soldier.
The only things that kept Astana from sweeping the podium were LL's inablity to keep upright and LA's inability to keep up.

 

[Anonymous]

If you really think that the fact that Kloden was or wasn't clinging to the back of their train made any difference in the brothers Schleck focus or strength then you are either delusional or you have never raced a bike other than around the block.

I find it interesting that people on these forums always say something like what's in the bold when they have little or no contribution to the forum topic

We're talking about racing because we find it interesting, and the nature of a forum is to offer different opinions, but there's always someone who feels the need to resort to tacky lines like that

Just because you'ved raced amatuers doesn't mean you're a genius, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with me observing the racing in the tour and offering my opinion.

You're bold opinion of me is noted, but i'm really more interested in the racing!

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

I find it interesting that people on these forums always say something like what's in the bold when they have little or no contribution to the forum topic

We're talking about racing because we find it interesting, and the nature of a forum is to offer different opinions, but there's always someone who feels the need to resort to tacky lines like that

Just because you'ved raced amatuers doesn't mean you're a genius, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with me observing the racing in the tour and offering my opinion.

You're bold opinion of me is noted, but i'm really more interested in the racing!

Hugh's post contributes a great deal to this topic.

If Saxobank were only interested in dropping Contador, they would have sat up when he was able to follow along. I think they did that a couple of times on that stage, but then they switched strategies and began riding very hard tempo. Why? Probably to distance the guys that had been dropped.

As for Kloden, the extent to which he blew strongly suggests that he would have been dropped very soon regardless of how Contador rode.

If I was as cooked as Kloden was, and Contador asked me if he could make an attack, I'd probably say sure... I'm gonna get dropped anyway, and you'd best get those two back on their heels.

 

[Angliru]

The only things that kept Astana from sweeping the podium were LL's inablity to keep upright and LA's inability to keep up.

The primary thing that kept Astana from sweeping the podium was Armstrong/Bruyneel's insistence that Kloden still ride for Armstrong inspite of his having shown in the earlier ITT and mountainous stages that he was the stronger rider. Armstrong's ego and Bruyneel's genuflecting to his master was the real reason although I doubt it would have happened anyway with Andy Schleck being so strong in the mountains and having showed improvement in the ITT's.

 

[Publicus]

Close. AC's attack dropped Kloden. The Schlecks had given up trying to dislodge AC as they had 'ran out of bullets' capable of dislodging AC.

Once, AC dropped Kloden, the brothers had enough reserves to put time into Kloden, which inadvertently put time into Armstrong.

I wouldn't call it "infusing" the Schlecks, but before he attacked, their tactic was to drop AC. After AC attacked, they realised their best strategy was to put time into the other Astanas and secure a podium position. Very logical in my eyes, don't know how you couldn't follow it

The jist of the story is - in my opinion, AC cost astana 3 on the podium when he'd already secured the yellow himself. He's a great rider, I like watching him, but I don't think he rewarded bruyneel for having a strong team who arguable is the best GT director around. 3 on the podium is probably the only thing in a GT that JB hasnt achieved yet

You really don't know what you are talking about. On the one hand you argue that they were too tired and thus Armstrong would have been able to close the gap because Wiggans imploded. On the other hand, because AC attacked, somehow they found new energy and put more time into Armstrong. I've copied your original argument below.

So when he attacked, he dropped Kloden, and as a result, the Schlecks upped the pace big time, which put time into lance and kloden and resulted in Andy being on the podium.

Before Contador attacked, the "virtual" GC had lance at least 30 seconds above Andy Schleck. And, as you said, the Schlecks had run out of bullets. This is where I think armstrong 'would have' lost a quarter of the time he did. They were so tired and the gap to armstrong was going to fall, given how easily he dislogded the garmin boys. This is why I said Armstrong would have lost a quarter of the time, becoz if he is up 30 seconds on virtual GC, and both the schleck contador group were travelling at the same speed as the armstrong/garmin group, I honestly think Armstrong would have stayed above Andy. (30 seconds virtual had contador not attacked divided by 2 minutes lost in reality = one quarter )

The mind reels.

 

[Angliru]

There is certainly a lot of dudes here getting some serious wood over the mere thought of Saint Contador - not that theres any thing wrong with that - but it seems to have affected their brains and made them attack anyone who remotely suggests that perfect contador vs evil lance is a just a tad imbalanced.

Not that there's anything wrong with convincing yourself that a guy who won the tour 7 times isn't really any good at what he does They all know he was doped beyond anything any of his rivals could ever dream of - and would have been last every day of any tour if he hadn't

You're post insinuates that you're just as biased as the folks that you criticize, just against Contador and for Armstrong. What makes you any different or for that matter any better?

 

[Publicus]

The primary thing that kept Astana from sweeping the podium was Armstrong/Bruyneel's insistence that Kloden still ride for Armstrong inspite of his having shown in the earlier ITT and mountainous stages that he was the stronger rider. Armstrong's ego and Bruyneel's genuflecting to his master was the real reason although I doubt it would have happened anyway with Andy Schleck being so strong in the mountains and having showed improvement in the ITT's.

Kloden sacrificed a lot of energy on Verbier and Ventoux on Armstrong's behalf. A lot.

 

[Angliru]

This is some iron-clad logic. AC's attack apparently infused the Schlecks, who were out of bullets, with enough energy to up the pace and increase their lead over Lance by an additional one minute. I know AC is good, but I didn't think he was THAT good!

Being "out of bullets" implies that they didn't have anything left to mount an attack. So are you implying that Contador's attack gave the Schleck's some form of an adrenaline rush that fueled their supposed increase in tempo? The sentence itself is in conflict.

 

[Angliru]

The jist of the story is - in my opinion, AC cost astana 3 on the podium when he'd already secured the yellow himself. He's a great rider, I like watching him, but I don't think he rewarded bruyneel for having a strong team who arguable is the best GT director around. 3 on the podium is probably the only thing in a GT that JB hasnt achieved yet

All can say is frak Johan. When he allowed the bs to continue throughout the Tour that was being subjected upon Contador without putting a stop to it, chose to follow Armstrong during the ITT's and not Contador, and even earlier in the year made it clear that he was rooting for Armstrong's 8th Tour win, he lost the chance to have any of his supposed strategies to be taken seriously. Contador was there to win the Tour. Everyone on the team knew he was the strongest rider, even Armstrong. To expect an attacking rider to not attack on summit finishes when he can and senses weakness in his opponents (Armstrong is included in that), is quite ridiculous. A rider like Contador gains his time on his opponents in the mountains. Any strategy that compromises that advantage is one the is contrary to his success. I'm quite proud that he rode his own race.

If they wanted to sweep the podium they shouldn't have had Kloden, who was the 2nd strongest rider on the team, riding as a domestique. They wasted his talents earlier in the race and then expected him to have something left to make his move for a podium spot. Kloden's willingness to go along with this plan and from what I haven't heard since the Tour, his lack of comment regarding having missed out on the podium seems to me to be a case of him realizing the completely unrealistic expectation of this bs Tour podium sweep talk that was coming from trio of LL/Bruyneel/Armstrong. Pile on the negative Contador comments in hopes that it will further sully his rep and thus lessen the chance that he'll be able to latch on to a decent squad. Thus leaving him stuck with Astana and their unstable finances & limited roster after mass exodus of quality riders to the Shack, and bad rep.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Being "out of bullets" implies that they didn't have anything left to mount an attack. So are you implying that Contador's attack gave the Schleck's some form of an adrenaline rush that fueled their supposed increase in tempo? The sentence itself is in conflict.

They were only out of Contador bullets. When they saw Kloden in trouble the Schleck brothers grabbed for their Kloden guns - which had still had lots of bullets - and opened fire.

 

[progressor]

You're post insinuates that you're just as biased as the folks that you criticize, just against Contador and for Armstrong. What makes you any different or for that matter any better?

No it doesn't. It reads pretty simple. I'm stating theres a pretty serious slant around here deifying contador and demonising armstrong. Where do I insinuate I'm either pro or anti either? You're misreading is just another example of the problem.