Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Actually, I don't doubt this. That + airconditioning --> places with high temperatures and air conditioning (see also Saudi-Arabia, UAE, etc.) --> people staying mostly indoors, in airconditioned but poorly ventilated rooms = problems

 
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A recent study in Germany reports that about 80% of people not/never infected with SARS-CoV-2 nevertheless have some T-cell mediated immunity to the virus. They believe this is from previously having been infected with a relatively harmless coronavirus responsible for common colds. This could possibly be a factor accounting for why some people fight off this virus much more quickly and easily than others of about the same age and health. Go out and catch a cold!

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-35331/v1
This was discussed on a segment of "The HardWire with Del Bigtree." It sounds like T-cell immunity is more effective against the virus than antibodies.

View: https://youtu.be/Ft4bVtcQcGM


 
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Hmmm- it seems EPO could be helpful for C-19
It makes sense that increasing oxygen/oxygen utilization would help with a respiratory disease. EPO also has some anti-inflammatory affect (maybe simply because of more oxygen).

I was unable to read the article in the link because the subscribe box kept popping up, but here is another that might be similar:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-epo-covid-.html
 
Actually, I don't doubt this. That + airconditioning --> places with high temperatures and air conditioning (see also Saudi-Arabia, UAE, etc.) --> people staying mostly indoors, in airconditioned but poorly ventilated rooms = problems

Some of us have been ranting about this for months already. Its nice that 239 experts are drawing more attention, but its nothing new. I think that I first read about aerosols vs. droplets in April (size, ability/times to 'float' in the air...). Its probably good to emphasize it to encourage people to wear face coverings though.
 
Some of us have been ranting about this for months already. Its nice that 239 experts are drawing more attention, but its nothing new. I think that I first read about aerosols vs. droplets in April (size, ability/times to 'float' in the air...). Its probably good to emphasize it to encourage people to wear face coverings though.
If COVID19 could be spread by aerosols then many more people would be infected - Controlled experiments in indoor settings have little relevance to general environmental conditions that govern our life. Yes, some diseases such as legionnaires disease, tuberculosis are spread by aerosols.
 
As I shared, the Boise mayor signed a mask mandate. There were people marching on city hall yesterday to protests of course. There was lots of "its a free country" which is cover for "I'm selfish", and one guy offered proof of his selfishness by adding "its a free country so I'm free to not wear a mask, and you are free to stay home". HMM, so your freedom to spread C19 means that I am not free to leave my home...is that lost on you?...it probably is. Sure, if you like the sound of "its a free country" chant it all you want, but remember that we have laws and rules to protect each other from each other. For example we have speed limits. Is this guy going to argue that its a free country and he can drive as fast as he wants and if you don't like being run over by him stay home? He probably is.
Keep in the mind that the "experts" on the hierarchy of the Coronavirus task force have given misinformation on the mask issue. Remember back a few months ago, Fauci went on "60 minutes" and said people don't need to wear masks detailing the science that masks do not protect against respiratory viruses. At about the same time, thee Surgeon General said masks also don't work and specifically pointed out that even the "N95 mask won't protect citizens" and "increases the chance of getting a disease."

Since then, Fauci has retracted and basically has implied the whole thing was a lie so people wouldn't go out and buy up all the masks. Lol. We've yet to hear from Adams on whether or not he was sincere or also intentionally misleading:

View: https://youtu.be/fqk_vnqKvBA


So, how can anyone take these guys serious with nonsense like this? The task force has become a clown show.

And now we have Americans at each other's throats over masks. People are harassed for not wearing a mask...people are harassed for wearing a mask. Go search YouTube for videos of people fighting each other over the wearing/not wearing of masks. You've got physical confrontations and downright brawls in many stores with people fighting one another or fighting store employees, and just plain chaos. :eek:

I've had a couple of times while out running on the streets where cars have pulled up along side of me yelling obscenities to wear a mask! And just yesterday at the gym, a middle-aged women was chewing out a young guy in the cardio section for not wearing mask!Though the gym suggests masks but does not require them...I thought WTH? And the MSM just keeps harping on & on about how terrible people are for not wearing masks at the beaches, parks, outdoor gatherings, etc.

Americans have gone completely insane over this mask issue...I've never seen anything like this before. In fact, this whole country is falling apart with so much hostilities. It would be nice to go back to the time when you only wore a mask for Halloween. Lol.
 
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If COVID19 could be spread by aerosols then many more people would be infected - Controlled experiments in indoor settings have little relevance to general environmental conditions that govern our life. Yes, some diseases such as legionnaires disease, tuberculosis are spread by aerosols.
Uhm, what?

So how is it being spread if not through the air? Certainly droplets are more 'potent' than aerosols, but droplets fall more quickly. Imagine the amount of aerosols floating around in a work space after and eight hour day.

Controlled experiments in indoor settings have little relevance? Many people work inside, restaurant/bar opening didn't work because they're inside. Testing these environments IS relevant to people's lives. Sure its not relevant to my house or my mountain bike ride, but it is relevant to indoor spaces that are part of my life (ie: grocery store).

Some diseases are/can be spread by aerosols, but not C19?

Please don't type that its only getting into peoples' lung because they aren't washing their hands enough.
 
Keep in the mind that the "experts" on the hierarchy of the Coronavirus task force have given misinformation on the mask issue. Remember back a few months ago, Fauci went on "60 minutes" and said people don't need to wear masks detailing the science that masks do not protect against respiratory viruses. At about the same time, thee Surgeon General said masks also don't work and specifically pointed out that even the "N95 mask won't protect citizens" and "increases the chance of getting a disease."

Since then, Fauci has retracted and basically has implied the whole thing was a lie so people wouldn't go out and buy up all the masks. Lol. We've yet to hear from Adams on whether or not he was sincere or also intentionally misleading:

View: https://youtu.be/fqk_vnqKvBA


So, how can anyone take these guys serious with nonsense like this? The task force has become a clown show.

And now we have Americans at each other's throats over masks. People are harassed for not wearing a mask...people are harassed for wearing a mask. Go search YouTube for videos of people fighting each other over the wearing/not wearing of masks. You've got physical confrontations and downright brawls in many stores with people fighting one another or fighting store employees, and just plain chaos. :eek:

I've had a couple of times while out running on the streets where cars have pulled up along side of me yelling obscenities to wear a mask! And just yesterday at the gym, a middle-aged women was chewing out a young guy in the cardio section for not wearing mask!Though the gym suggests masks but does not require them...I thought WTH? And the MSM just keeps harping on & on about how terrible people are for not wearing masks at the beaches, parks, outdoor gatherings, etc.

Americans have gone completely insane over this mask issue...I've never seen anything like this before. In fact, this whole country is falling apart with so much hostilities. It would be nice to go back to the time when you only wore a mask for Halloween. Lol.
Let's put aside any outside info and just use some logic: if you wear a face covering less of your droplets/aerosols can get out. Plus, as an added benefit, less of other people's droplets/aerosols can get in. If everyone is wearing a face covering there will be less droplet/aerosol exchange. Its really pretty simple.
 
People here have also been slightly irritated that there was a sudden change from "masks don't help" to "150 Euro if you don't wear a mask". But the virologists simply explained they had been wrong, that was pretty much it. There have been some demonstrations against the measures taken in general, but that's over now. The issue in the US is obviously that wearing a mask or not is considered a political statement.
 
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Uhm, what?

So how is it being spread if not through the air? Certainly droplets are more 'potent' than aerosols, but droplets fall more quickly. Imagine the amount of aerosols floating around in a work space after and eight hour day.

Controlled experiments in indoor settings have little relevance? Many people work inside, restaurant/bar opening didn't work because they're inside. Testing these environments IS relevant to people's lives. Sure its not relevant to my house or my mountain bike ride, but it is relevant to indoor spaces that are part of my life (ie: grocery store).

Some diseases are/can be spread by aerosols, but not C19?

Please don't type that its only getting into peoples' lung because they aren't washing their hands enough.
Droplets and aerosols are different - Droplets are smaller particles which may end up furniture, door handles, buttons etc while aerosols are bigger particles that stay in the air and could be breathed in by people - Though there is only limited evidence that COVID 19 infections are caused by aerosols - I'll also add that masks are misused by many - People walk around in public wearing a mask with a 'badge of honour.' Walking down the street or strolling in the park hardly needs a mask BUT yet these same people don't wear masks in their workplaces, where you are in close confines with others for longer periods of time.

I suggest you do some further research to see what diseases are spread by aerosols - The biggest issue with COVID 19 is it can be spread by asymptomatic people which makes it so difficult to contain - So it's not just a case of identifying a person who is coughing and spluttering - Finally, your last sentence makes no sense at all.
 
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I was told many years ago by the top cycling coach and elite team director some pretty simple,brutal advice about advancing to the next level in bike racing it went something like this and lasted this long..and my answers were of zero importance..
Are you riding @300+ plus per week?..if I answered yes it would have been increase your tempo..
Lose 10-12 pounds
Keep racing as often as possible..
Come back for more advice once you achieve these goals..
Brutal,Honest simple,straight forward..
Covid is similar..wash your hands,wash them again
Clean everything
Wear a mask
Stay away from people
Don't go into a group setting at all cost.
If you feel ill isolate.
If Americans followed the simple stuff first things wouldn't look like this..
There is not a liposuction solution for Covid 19 on the immediate horizon..
Hard work and discipline are what is readily available.
Talked to a fellow American yesterday..we shared a Belgian story that was the same experienced at separate times..schit weather..cold drizzly..just plain nasty..the Belgians all finished up their coffee and were ready to train..in my case I looked at them w California eyes and in disappointment and disbelief couldn't believe that the conditions didn't warrant a day off or rollers at a minimum..one kid pointed outside and said..
" You want to be a hard man? Riding and training in this will make you a hard man"
During really nasty rides one of the team supporters used to yell out.. " the guy that you are going to beat is home sitting on his sofa because he is too soft to train in these conditions.. "
Sounds real cowboy,but that story repeats all over Europe..not so much in S. California...
America needs to get back to basics
 
Some of us have been ranting about this for months already. Its nice that 239 experts are drawing more attention, but its nothing new. I think that I first read about aerosols vs. droplets in April (size, ability/times to 'float' in the air...). Its probably good to emphasize it to encourage people to wear face coverings though.
It's amazing how basic knowledge and common sense become debatable while from time to time "experts" reinvent the wheel. It has been proven that the flu, which is highly contagious can spread through aerosols, why not assume corona , which is highly contagious can't? Even if it's not significant for corona, why not use every method of protection/prevention? In the end this illness has no cure so why not wear a mask, avoid closed spaces, wash your hands (even if you don't wash them every five minutes educate yourself to not touch your face, mouth, eyes until you do)? The mask debate is as ridiculous as it gets. Sure it will not save you if you are in a hospital small room with 10 covid patients coughing but it will lower the risk of getting it while you are in a closed space with a few asymptomatics. In the end that's all you can do to protect yourself and those around you. So why do we even discuss this?
 
Droplets and aerosols are different - Droplets are smaller particles which may end up furniture, door handles, buttons etc while aerosols are bigger particles that stay in the air and could be breathed in by people - Though there is only limited evidence that COVID 19 infections are caused by aerosols - I'll also add that masks are misused by many - People walk around in public wearing a mask with a 'badge of honour.' Walking down the street or strolling in the park hardly needs a mask BUT yet these same people don't wear masks in their workplaces, where you are in close confines with others for longer periods of time.

I suggest you do some further research to see what diseases are spread by aerosols - The biggest issue with COVID 19 is it can be spread by asymptomatic people which makes it so difficult to contain - So it's not just a case of identifying a person who is coughing and spluttering - Finally, your last sentence makes no sense at all.
You shouldn't suggest any further research until you check your own assertions...you have droplets and aerosols backward which highlights your misunderstanding of what is happening.

Asymptomatic spread is the reason that masks are important because people who don't know that they are sick can unknowingly spread their C19 to others. Are you arguing for and against protecting people?

EDIT: ranting about improper mask use doesn't change the benefit of proper mask use.
 
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If y'all wanted to argue about airborne vs droplet transmission, you missed your calling. It is a staple argument in infectious disease circles. Remember that I said biomedical sciences does not routinely provide tidy answers. I personally think flu can transmit by aerosols, but that is still not universally agreed upon and flu has been studied for decades. As Yaco notes, it is a bit of semantics and not everybody even agrees what the size cutoff should be (e.g. 5 vs 10). There will be no definitive answer about CoV. But I am inclined to RtD's thinking that we should probably assume that it does.

As for Adams, I don't think we should overstate his expertise. He is an anesthesiologist by practice. His one big foray into infectious disease during the Hiv outbreak in Indiana was pretty disastrous. But it did show that he was a team player and would not rock the boat for the pols. That and having the right connections is how he became surgeon general. There is legit grounds to replace the whole task force, including Fauci and most of the cdc leadership, for the dubious mask messaging and other missteps. I think Scott Gottlieb would be a good choice to lead. That guy has been a straight shooter throughout.
 
If y'all wanted to argue about airborne vs droplet transmission, you missed your calling. It is a staple argument in infectious disease circles. Remember that I said biomedical sciences does not routinely provide tidy answers. I personally think flu can transmit by aerosols, but that is still not universally agreed upon and flu has been studied for decades. As Yaco notes, it is a bit of semantics and not everybody even agrees what the size cutoff should be (e.g. 5 vs 10). There will be no definitive answer about CoV. But I am inclined to RtD's thinking that we should probably assume that it does.

As for Adams, I don't think we should overstate his expertise. He is an anesthesiologist by practice. His one big foray into infectious disease during the Hiv outbreak in Indiana was pretty disastrous. But it did show that he was a team player and would not rock the boat for the pols. That and having the right connections is how he became surgeon general. There is legit grounds to replace the whole task force, including Fauci and most of the cdc leadership, for the dubious mask messaging and other missteps. I think Scott Gottlieb would be a good choice to lead. That guy has been a straight shooter throughout.

I agree with you about Scott Gottlieb. The host of the 7pm (est) CNBC show weeknights has had him on most nights to answer questions. I've been listening to him. I'd certainly be considering him for Surgeon General.
 
If y'all wanted to argue about airborne vs droplet transmission, you missed your calling. It is a staple argument in infectious disease circles. Remember that I said biomedical sciences does not routinely provide tidy answers. I personally think flu can transmit by aerosols, but that is still not universally agreed upon and flu has been studied for decades. As Yaco notes, it is a bit of semantics and not everybody even agrees what the size cutoff should be (e.g. 5 vs 10). There will be no definitive answer about CoV. But I am inclined to RtD's thinking that we should probably assume that it does.

As for Adams, I don't think we should overstate his expertise. He is an anesthesiologist by practice. His one big foray into infectious disease during the Hiv outbreak in Indiana was pretty disastrous. But it did show that he was a team player and would not rock the boat for the pols. That and having the right connections is how he became surgeon general. There is legit grounds to replace the whole task force, including Fauci and most of the cdc leadership, for the dubious mask messaging and other missteps. I think Scott Gottlieb would be a good choice to lead. That guy has been a straight shooter throughout.
I really don't want to argue the ins and outs of transmission, I want to stress the importance of keeping our C19 to ourselves as much as possible (reduce transmission). Wear a mask.

EDIT: clarification: no matter what you think is the 'main' type of transmission (aerosols, droplets, contact...), the importance of keeping our bodily fluids to ourselves is the same.

You are correct about droplet size and definition, but yaco claimed that droplets are the smaller and aerosols are the larger. No matter what cut-off you use, that is backward, aerosols are the smaller/floatier. I read one study about the 'old' SARS that used 50 as the line, but most C19 research seems to use below 5 is aerosols, above 5 is droplets (it gets messy as droplets dry and get smaller...).
 
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So, how can anyone take these guys serious with nonsense like this? The task force has become a clown show.
Masks probably won't protect you much from other people who aren't wearing them. They will protect other people from you. That's what Fauci and others missed at the time, they were concerned with giving people advice on how to protect themselves. This is different, it's a way of protecting others.

I have my criticisms of Fauci, he certainly was late in realizing the danger, but so were an awful lot of other people. He was right about HCQ (that the evidence did not warrant people's taking it without a doctor's advice); he appears to have been right about asymptomatics (roughly half of infected people); and he also appears to have been right about the IFR, mortality rate, 0.5 - 1.0%.

Fauci's biggest problem--and this will be inherited by his successor, if one should come anytime soon--is that he can't criticize his clown boss without getting into a lot of trouble. Fauci constantly has to make his points diplomatically, e.g., when Trump said he wanted to open the country by Easter, Fauci said that idea was "aspirational", which is diplo-speak for "insane".

the MSM just keeps harping on & on about how terrible people are for not wearing masks at the beaches, parks, outdoor gatherings, etc.
You think wearing masks should be optional? I guess you run red lights and routinely exceed the speed limit, too, right? I mean, anyone can see when the intersection or road is clear ahead, why should we have to submit to what the government tells us to do? Maybe you *** and piss wherever you are, too? Why should we be compelled to find a bathroom in public, after all, the mess we leave behind won't affect us.

Do you ever eat in a restaurant? Do you think restaurants should be subject to government regulations for sanitation? Why should they care if people get sick from eating their food?

Bad news for older people like me: a vaccine may not have that much effect for us. That would mean we depend on younger people getting vaccinated, and these polls showing large percentages of people won't take the vaccine doesn't give me much comfort. I'm really beginning to think I may have to stay in lockdown for the rest of my life.

https://onezero.medium.com/the-coronavirus-vaccine-may-not-work-on-the-elderly-3fc176f75751
 
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If y'all wanted to argue about airborne vs droplet transmission, you missed your calling. It is a staple argument in infectious disease circles. Remember that I said biomedical sciences does not routinely provide tidy answers. I personally think flu can transmit by aerosols, but that is still not universally agreed upon and flu has been studied for decades. As Yaco notes, it is a bit of semantics and not everybody even agrees what the size cutoff should be (e.g. 5 vs 10). There will be no definitive answer about CoV. But I am inclined to RtD's thinking that we should probably assume that it does.
The precautionary principle seems the best way to approach this: unless you're sure it doesn't transmit via aerosols, assume it does. The WHO seems to apply the opposite approach: until it is proven covid-19 does transmit via aerosols, assume it does not. I find that a very strange line of reasoning. Such thinking may be applied to wild theories, but not for something that is at least very well possible.
 

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