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Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Something that has popped in and out of my head as I've been reading some the vaccine news is: if part of a virus and a cold virus from a chimp are shot into people's blood, can it also lead to some of the C19 side effects we are seeing (heart, lung, neuro.?)? If its strong enough to get an immune response is it strong enough to trigger the side effects? Are chimp viruses safe for us or are those going to lead to other issues? The RNA methods seems similarly loaded to me as well.

dj? MI?
 
Something that has popped in and out of my head as I've been reading some the vaccine news is: if part of a virus and a cold virus from a chimp are shot into people's blood, can it also lead to some of the C19 side effects we are seeing (heart, lung, neuro.?)? If its strong enough to get an immune response is it strong enough to trigger the side effects? Are chimp viruses safe for us or are those going to lead to other issues? The RNA methods seems similarly loaded to me as well.

If you're referring to the Oxford trial, which uses a viral vector from chimps, then no, the vector won't cause any side effects. A vector is basically a large piece of DNA into which is inserted coding regions for proteins that are supposed to trigger antibody formation, in this case, the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2. The advantage is that you can just inject a patient with the vector, and it will seek out cells that it can enter into with its payload.

This particular vector has been used in many other vaccine trials, though I don't believe that any approved vaccines make use of it. It has been engineered so that it can't replicate itself, and therefore can't cause any infection. That doesn't mean their can't be any side effects, but AFAIK, the use of this vector doesn't present any particular hazards. But I'm no expert in vaccines.

RNA vaccines, such as the one Moderna is working on, use the genetic code to produce protein fragments, or peptides, that activate the immune system. The RNA is packaged in a way that allows it to be injected into the person, and possibly, that will allow it to target certain cells, fuse with them, and get inside, where it will be translated into protein.

The main side effect I would worry about is that most of these vaccines are based on the spike protein, which SARS-CoV-2 uses to enter cells. The spike protein binds to a specific receptor, ACE2, on cells. If you make a spike protein, or fragment of the spike protein, and it doesn't trigger an immune response, it will probably be rapidly degraded. But if it weren't, it could bind to cells and block the ACE2 receptor. Many drugs work like this, e.g., beta-blockers for heart patients, and naloxone, the antidote to morphine and other opioids. A protein like this could thus interfere with normal cell function, though it would also prevent the virus itself from entering cells.

In fact, there are known drugs that block the ACE2 receptor, ARBs, that have important medical uses, and I now see that in fact some researchers have suggested they might be used to treat C19:

https://www.ersnet.org/covid-19-blog/ace2-receptor-blockers--a-novel-therapeutic-approach-for-covid-19#:~:text=Therefore, angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs,their infection to host cells.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ddr.21656

One problem, as I alluded to before, is that in the process, the antagonist will interfere with normal cell function. Since the main function of ACE2 is to produced angiotensin, maybe use of an ARB could be done in conjunction with a treatment to elevate angiotensin levels. At the very least, this might be a short-term solution, for someone who might have come into contact with an infected person, and wants to stop the virus immediately. It might also be used in the short term to slow down viral replication, giving the immune system time to get up to speed.

However, there is another major problem with ARBs. If you block a receptor like ACE2, the body quite frequently will compensate by increasing synthesis of that receptor (this is the same kind of feedback mechanism which results when a cyclist transfuses blood, and inhibits reticulocyte formation, only in reverse). So taking ARBs could make a viral infection even worse. In fact, patients often take ARBs for precisely the kind of comorbidities that are associated with increased risk from the virus, and there has been concern that they face a dilemma: they need the ARB for their condition, but it could increase their susceptibility to the virus. Medicine is complicated and messy.
 
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If you're referring to the Oxford trial, which uses a viral vector from chimps, then no, the vector won't cause any side effects. A vector is basically a large piece of DNA into which is inserted coding regions for proteins that are supposed to trigger antibody formation, in this case, the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2. The advantage is that you can just inject a patient with the vector, and it will seek out cells that it can enter into with its payload.

This particular vector has been used in many other vaccine trials, though I don't believe that any approved vaccines make use of it. It has been engineered so that it can't replicate itself, and therefore can't cause any infection. That doesn't mean their can't be any side effects, but AFAIK, the use of this vector doesn't present any particular hazards. But I'm no expert in vaccines.
Agree with this. The benefit to a live vaccine is that it will induce cytotoxic T cells as well as antibody and the phase I results from the Oxford group are consistent with that theory. In general, there is more of a threat to adverse reactions with a live vaccine, but these vectors have been widely tested in people as a vaccine vector for diseases like Malaria, Ebola, etc. One of the reasons that groups were so quick to get vaccines into humans was because the technological framework to make them was well established. The Moderna RNA vaccine had the worst adverse reactions in the early trials despite it being a 'safer' subunit vaccine, so I would be more hesitant about that one. The technology has never led to FDA approval, so it is bit more of a wild card.

On a different note, remember a few weeks ago when the chloroquine study from Detroit came out and made headlines on CNN and was shared widely. Yesterday, the randomized control trial from the UK was released as a pre-print and.... crickets. The Detroit study gave a glimmer of hope, but Recovery douses that entirely.

View: https://twitter.com/Aiims1742/status/1283481992311508999

Worth remembering that drug overdoses are a complex issue and pinning this all on COVID-19 ignores a lot of context.
View: https://twitter.com/sangerkatz/status/1283754780486180864
 
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Why don't they use a human vector (a Chinese Bio company is)? I read one explanation that people already have immunity to human vectors (maybe in the link below).

I knew that they had used chimp virus for other vaccines, and the lead researcher's adult children (triplets) were the first to get the Oxford vaccine so I assumed that they were confident about its safety. Gilbert and/or her kids said that they weren't concerned.
More Here

I read that Brazil healthcare workers will be the next trial.
 
The data is clear,
if children drive themselves to and from school,screen themselves on entry and frequently during the day,the children identify other children who are ill or symptomatic,the children teach all the classes,clean the entire facility and prepare the food for themselves and other children things will be relatively safe..still have not figured out the supply chain management issues.
Second graders on the loading dock receiving pallets from Sysco is a tough one to actualize.
And waste? Small kids receiving mass industrial supplies like cleaners and paper products..?
Are our kids ready for forklift operations and the use of pallet jacks?
Will 8th graders be called upon for shipping and receiving math skills? What 8th graders will take on the nurse or school principal duties?
Anyway,yes schools can be safe without adults,can't wait to see what elementary school kids do parking their cars,SUVs and bicycles in the morning!!!!
Also daily briefings held on the schools PA system will be a hoot!!
4and 5th graders holding fire drills!!!
 
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And just so it's not lots in any discussion about our precious children's safety in the US pandemic plans,
American already made the decision to allow children to be essential front line workers,working in grocery stores,restaurants and delivery positions to name a few..being near 18 was close enough for those assessing risk at every level. When we address safety it should not be left up to the parents to decide their child is composed enough,mature enough to be a front line worker in the pandemic..no child should be a first responder by design..sure in an absolute emergency,but kid's working fast food or in a store is not an emergency,then and now.
 
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The data is clear,
if children drive themselves to and from school,screen themselves on entry and frequently during the day,the children identify other children who are ill or symptomatic,the children teach all the classes,clean the entire facility and prepare the food for themselves and other children things will be relatively safe..still have not figured out the supply chain management issues.
Second graders on the loading dock receiving pallets from Sysco is a tough one to actualize.
And waste? Small kids receiving mass industrial supplies like cleaners and paper products..?
Are our kids ready for forklift operations and the use of pallet jacks?
Will 8th graders be called upon for shipping and receiving math skills? What 8th graders will take on the nurse or school principal duties?
Anyway,yes schools can be safe without adults,can't wait to see what elementary school kids do parking their cars,SUVs and bicycles in the morning!!!!
Also daily briefings held on the schools PA system will be a hoot!!
4and 5th graders holding fire drills!!!

You have nothing to worry about. Kids are not going back to school anytime soon... possibly ever. This is not about kids and their safety.



"LAUSD educators clearly want to get back into schools with their students, but the underlying question at every step must be: Given broader societal conditions, how do we open physical schools in a way that ensures that the benefits outweigh the risks, especially for our most vulnerable students and school communities? The COVID-19 pandemic in the United States underscores the deep equity and justice challenges arising from our profoundly racist, intensely unequal society. Unlike other countries that recognize protecting lives is the key to protecting livelihoods, the United States has chosen to prioritize profits over people. The Trump administration’s attempt to force people to return to work on a large scale depends on restarting physical schools so parents have childcare."

"Safe and Equitable Starting of School: Biology Has Rules, Even If We Choose to Ignore Them. "
(LOL..my emphasis)

1. Federal Bailout:
  • Fully Fund Title I:
  • Fully Fund IDEA:
  • Medicare for All:

  • The California Schools and Local Communities Funding Act of 2020, aka Schools and Communities First:
  • Wealth Tax: A new tax on unrealized capital gains to California billionaires only, 1% a year until capital gains taxes are met. (Unrealized means there hasn't been a taxable transaction yet.).
  • Millionaire Tax:
Defund Police:
  • Housing Security:
  • Paid Sick Leave:
  • Charter Moratorium:
  • Financial Support for Undocumented Students and Families:

In Conclusion: Normal Wasn’t Working For Us Before. We Can’t Go Back



https://www.utla.net/sites/default/files/samestormdiffboats_final.pdf
 
Why don't they use a human vector (a Chinese Bio company is)? I read one explanation that people already have immunity to human vectors (maybe in the link below).

I knew that they had used chimp virus for other vaccines, and the lead researcher's adult children (triplets) were the first to get the Oxford vaccine so I assumed that they were confident about its safety. Gilbert and/or her kids said that they weren't concerned.
More Here

I read that Brazil healthcare workers will be the next trial.
One of my favorite concepts in Immunology is "original antigenic sin". To make a long story short and sweet, people who are exposed to a viral vector that is similar to a virus they have been infected with before, they will mount their immune response to the vector itself and not the COVID-19 spike protein that was added to the vector. They respond to the old parts that they have seen before and not the new ones. Human adenoviruses are pretty common, so you might have a lot of people who would not respond well to a vaccine like that. Theoretically, the chimp viruses should be more unknown to populations, so people would respond to the "right" part of the vaccine. But people who received the chimp vaccine vector with Ebola surface protein would not be expected to mount an effective response to a COVID-19 vaccine with that same vector. In theory.

The study found that one dose of the vaccine, tested at three different levels, appeared to induce a good immune response in some subjects. But about half of the volunteers — people who already had immunity to the backbone of the vaccine — had a dampened immune response.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/22...accine-developed-in-china-sees-mixed-results/
 
On a different note, remember a few weeks ago when the chloroquine study from Detroit came out and made headlines on CNN and was shared widely. Yesterday, the randomized control trial from the UK was released as a pre-print and.... crickets. The Detroit study gave a glimmer of hope, but Recovery douses that entirely.

Have to avoid politics, but I think it's relevant enough to our general discussion of the pandemic to note that Fauci has been under attack by the Administration, to the point where one of the top economic (not scientific/medical) advisors, Peter Navarro, wrote an op ed piece claiming Fauci has always been wrong. One of his points, predictably, was HCQ.

Not only was Navarro dead wrong about the Henry Ford study validating HCQ, but no one in the Administration seems to understand that all Fauci ever said was that there wasn't scientifically rigorous evidence for the use of HCQ. Which was totally the case at the time, and the only responsible thing to point out. Even if every major trial had validated HCQ--and obviously, that didn't happen--what he said still stands as correct.

It would be exactly as if anyone who right now said we don't yet have a safe, effective vaccine was called wrong later if/when such a vaccine is developed. This is the kind of twisted logic that results when you want something, and someone points out that that something doesn't yet exist. Equating someone's telling the truth about the situation with that person's not wanting it to happen, and saying it never will happen. This is children's logic. You're mean because you say it's raining out, and I don't want it to rain.
 
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Have to avoid politics, but I think it's relevant enough to our general discussion of the pandemic to note that Fauci has been under attack by the Administration, to the point where one of the top economic (not scientific/medical) advisors, Peter Navarro, wrote an op ed piece claiming Fauci has always been wrong. One of his points, predictably, was HCQ.

Not only was Navarro dead wrong about the Henry Ford study validating HCQ, but no one in the Administration seems to understand that all Fauci ever said was that there wasn't scientifically rigorous evidence for the use of HCQ. Which was totally the case at the time, and the only responsible thing to point out. Even if every major trial had validated HCQ--and obviously, that didn't happen--what he said still stands as correct.

It would be exactly as if anyone who right now said we don't yet have a safe, effective vaccine was called wrong later if/when such a vaccine is developed. This is the kind of twisted logic that results when you want something, and someone points out that that something doesn't yet exist. Equating someone's telling the truth about the situation with that person's not wanting it to happen, and saying it never will happen. This is children's logic. You're mean because you say it's raining out, and I don't want it to rain.
Everyone is clear that "ignore science and open the schools" is shooting kids on 5th Avenue, right?
 
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The nation has simply gone crazy. As posted, the Georgia govenor is suing the Mayor of Atlanta over the mask mandate. Numerous law enforcement agencies across the nation still refuse to enforce mask mandates enacted by local leaders. People are now getting assaulted and even shot & killed over the mask issue. Texas bar owners have file a $10 million federal lawsuit against Abbott over the recent shutdown & rollbacks. And some businesses in California are ignoring Newsom's second lockdown order.

The nation has reached a boiling point - stress levels with Americans are at an all-time high. The economic collapse, the uncertainty of school openings, the looming loss of the Fed unemployment payments/PPP program, the possibility of a stay-at-home orders being reactivated in many states, the polarization of the political parties, etc., have people on the brink of losing it. It's probably going to get worse before it gets better.
 
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The nation has simply gone crazy. As posted, the Georgia govenor is suing the Mayor of Atlanta over the mask mandate. Numerous law enforcement agencies across the nation still refuse to enforce mask mandates enacted by local leaders. People are now getting assaulted and even shot & killed over the mask issue. Texas bar owners have file a $10 million federal lawsuit against Abbott over the recent shutdown & rollbacks. And some businesses in California are ignoring Newsom's second lockdown order.

The nation has reached a boiling point - stress levels with Americans are at an all-time high. The economic collapse, the uncertainty of school openings, the looming loss of the Fed unemployment payments/PPP program, the possibility of a stay-at-home orders being reactivated in many states, the polarization of the political parties, etc., have people on the brink of losing it. It's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

With WalMart issuing a mask mandate for their stores, things are going to get interesting very quickly.

In NC schools have been give two options. I is full on line learning and the second is a partial reopening with on line learning options. Basically we have a few counties with very low numbers. Also at least one district that is due to some law is required to have the first two weeks in class before it can go to on line. I also know at least 2 of our Universities never fully closed due to being medical schools. UNC (Chapel Hill) and Duke U are both medical schools. Some students have stayed to continue working in the labs doing research.
 
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I understand and agree with Merckx's points,but I dismiss most of the premise about education leading t to where we are at now. An example this week..Peter Navarro is an economic advisor within the US White House staff, surprisingly dependent on your point of view, Navarro was one of the initial US government personal to do an assessment on a wide variety of details of Covid 19.
So your education about the pandemic maybe coming from people in positions of authority but no expertise. And there we have the tug of war for valid information,science based,not science fiction. Reality or another type of TV star would normally defer to medical and scientific professionals in matters of grave,life or death importance. But currently those giving and those receiving information from non science types are not only not alarmed,but look to relish the competition of competing data. A scientist \ doctor tells you of dire forecast and dead bodies,a multitude of eye witnesses warn about the virus.
One group listens and the other laughs it off.
The problem with this type of education derived from non medical people is that even a small minority of followers of falsehood will keep all of us sick for months if not years to come..
We as a planet are nowhere close to herd immunity. And the dynamic of encouraged bad behavior because a rapidly available vaccine is imminent..is plain crazy from a world medical historical perspective.
Probably best example..the deadliest..there still is no vaccine for the AIDS virus..and not for lack of trying.
I think American behavior about AIDS being a predictor of our course on Covid, we are going to be at this for a while
 
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Cases significantly going up in Hong Kong - much worse than back in the spring. Since this is a culture with a high mask compliance (a "masked metropolis" as they're known), what other factors could be involved here with the spreading of the virus?


"The epidemic is at its worst, as compared with (the previous surge of cases in) March," Chuang Shuk-kwan, head of the Communicable Disease Branch of the Center for Health Protection, told a press briefing."

"The epidemic had yet to spread into the community in March, now there are more people infected, like taxi drivers, public estates residents, even schools and an elderly home," Chuang said."

"We are in the midst of a community outbreak, which could get worse if we do not tighten up infection control measures," she said."

Also, this developing story is very interesting:

View: https://youtu.be/7voTUuVT5i4
 
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The nation has simply gone crazy. As posted, the Georgia govenor is suing the Mayor of Atlanta over the mask mandate. Numerous law enforcement agencies across the nation still refuse to enforce mask mandates enacted by local leaders. People are now getting assaulted and even shot & killed over the mask issue. Texas bar owners have file a $10 million federal lawsuit against Abbott over the recent shutdown & rollbacks. And some businesses in California are ignoring Newsom's second lockdown order.

The nation has reached a boiling point - stress levels with Americans are at an all-time high. The economic collapse, the uncertainty of school openings, the looming loss of the Fed unemployment payments/PPP program, the possibility of a stay-at-home orders being reactivated in many states, the polarization of the political parties, etc., have people on the brink of losing it. It's probably going to get worse before it gets better.
When people are pulling guns and knives on each other because a stranger suggests that they should be wearing a mask.......... well..................even worse some people are not just flashing such weapons thay are using them ! Australia has seen fistfights in shopping centres over the same and people being assaulted over a packet of toilet paper or a tin of baby formula. The suburbs have become the wild west for arguments over nothing. As if older people don't have enough good reasons not to go out at the moment .............don't think I would want to be delivering pizzas at the moment ...............
 
Florida representative says his state is doing fine, the number of deaths is no big deal, says he doesn't wear a mask in public. Says masks should not be mandated. When asked to compare them with seat belts, he replies that driving a car is potentially a dangerous situation, so the state has an interest in reducing the danger.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KlxT9RNfcs


But there's more...no, I am not making this up. Talk show Rush Limbaugh suggests that America will have to "adapt" to living with the virus. As an analogy, he references the Donner party, a group of 19th century settlers who were trying to get to California. They got stuck in the mountains in the dead of winter, and to survive, they ate the corpses of the members who died. He says there was nothing they could do, they had to suck it up, and in the same way, there's nothing we can do about the virus, and we have to suck it up.