Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Mandates died yesterday. Sorry no other court to go with now.
With the exception of the mandates for the healthcare workers:


So, it wasn't a complete victory against medical authoritarianism.
 
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FYI Peter Sagan has caught Covid twice. Pretty sure he isn’t fat and lazy? I think it is still preferable to get vaxxed. At least double vaxxed. But I am beginning to wonder about ongoing boosters. What do these do to the body’s natural immune system?
Hey cool...I've got something in common with Peter the Great (and I'm a Sagan fan :cool:). I caught the original strain & the Delta variant recovering from both without needing any medical intervention whatsoever. And I'm definitely not fat & lazy and probably twice Sagan's age. Lol.
 
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he didn't say it doesn't offer protection, he said that it doesn't stop it. If I was a parent of a child or teen, I would weigh the risk vs reward before doing it, and i'd definitely opt for Pfizer over Moderns given the higher myocarditis incident rate.
I clearly said it "can't stop". Why would they mix words? They don't have children so those decisions are not left up to them. That is a good thing. This might be a shock Frank, but they really have no idea what they are talking about.
 
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Vaccines do lead to a reduced chance of getting infected, and also reduce the chance that you will yourself infect someone else. That has been shown again and again in real-life situations. But, yes, they do not stop transmission completely.

Situation here:
69% of adults in Flanders have now received the booster. Across Belgium, hospitalizations have increased somewhat, but IC cases have dropped, even though record infection numbers have been recorded for the past 10 days or so
How much do vaccines slow transmission? It can’t be much based upon what we are seeing with omicron and highly vaccinated populations?

Plus what is occurring in Belgium hospitalisations and ICUs seems similar to what is unfolding in Australia with omicron. But many of us did not receive our 2nd shot until recently so are not yet due for the booster yet.
 
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Sorry to hear this good luck with your recovery. Do you have any idea how you caught it? I am watching nervously around me. No doubt only a matter of time:worried:
No, not sure. But omicron is everywhere (in Melbourne). I wouldn't worry too much about catching it if you don't have any underlying health conditions.

Regarding the vaccine debate, my opinion is that it doesn't do much at all to reduce transmission. In Melbourne we have had around 400,000 (which could be an understatement) cases this year already, so that's close to 10% of the population.

Vaccines do seem to reduce the severity of illness though, as seen by the current low death rates.
 
Hey cool...I've got something in common with Peter the Great (and I'm a Sagan fan :cool:). I caught the original strain & the Delta variant recovering from both without needing any medical intervention whatsoever. And I'm definitely not fat & lazy and probably twice Sagan's age. Lol.
Buy yourself a lottery ticket. But obviously the healthier, the better makes sense even if in some cases even that is not enough.
 
Vaccines do lead to a reduced chance of getting infected, and also reduce the chance that you will yourself infect someone else. That has been shown again and again in real-life situations. But, yes, they do not stop transmission completely.

Situation here:
69% of adults in Flanders have now received the booster. Across Belgium, hospitalizations have increased somewhat, but IC cases have dropped, even though record infection numbers have been recorded for the past 10 days or so. Of the people in hospital where they know it's the omicron variant, 0 of those 60 or so had been vaccinated, and the median age was around 48. Omicron has seemingly stopped at around 90% proportion of infections, meaning that Delta is not fully suppressed, which worries some virologists.

I also read an article with experts from the US and Europe explaining why the situation in the US with Omicron was much worse than in Europe:
  • Americans are less healthy - more diabetes, more overweight
  • less Americans are vaccinated, and less have received a booster
  • healthcare is more uneven in quality (and much higher in cost)
In any case, it should be now be absolutely clear that vaccination is working very well to significantly reduce covid health problems. Those who still deny this, are - in my eyes - fanatics driven by ideology, with disregard for facts.
Seeing the difference between Portugal and the US really underscores how vaccination in the 40+ age groups are the whole ball game. The amazing thing is how many people here are delusional about their own health. So many paunchy middle age dudes in their 40s think they are the picture of health and don't need vaccines.
Protects against and STOP are two different things. Don't play around with how things are worded please. Do and be better.
Vaccines can stop all known variants. You are wrong. But seeing you post antivax talking points is all to common.
I clearly said it "can't stop". Why would they mix words? They don't have children so those decisions are not left up to them. That is a good thing. This might be a shock Frank, but they really have no idea what they are talking about.
Vaccines can stop all known variants. You were wrong then and are FOS now.
With the exception of the mandates for the healthcare workers:


So, it wasn't a complete victory against medical authoritarianism.
My workplace is over 98% vaccinated and there was not a single outbreak all last year. It really is a no brainer for employers to mandate vaccines.

But vaccines should not be mandatory in the public. But, people should get vaccinated because it is the right thing to do. But, sadly, this country is filled with pathetic people who want to shirk common decency, all while suffering no negative consequences. It is just a delusional mindset. We see it every day in this thread.
 
Seeing the difference between Portugal and the US really underscores how vaccination in the 40+ age groups are the whole ball game. The amazing thing is how many people here are delusional about their own health. So many paunchy middle age dudes in their 40s think they are the picture of health and don't need vaccines.
Vaccines can stop all known variants. You are wrong. But seeing you post antivax talking points is all to common.

Vaccines can stop all known variants. You were wrong then and are FOS now.

My workplace is over 98% vaccinated and there was not a single outbreak all last year. It really is a no brainer for employers to mandate vaccines.

But vaccines should not be mandatory in the public. But, people should get vaccinated because it is the right thing to do. But, sadly, this country is filled with pathetic people who want to shirk common decency, all while suffering no negative consequences. It is just a delusional mindset. We see it every day in this thread.
40's? You are wrong.
 
Vaccines can stop all known variants.
So does natural immunity. I fail to understand why you're so obstinate with the benefits of post-infection immunity? Surely you recognize the power of a healthy immune system in fighting off viral & bacterial infections? I'm sure with your background & expertise, you could easily give a Ted talk about the effectiveness of a healthy adaptive immune system in generating B & T cell lymphocytes in fighting off viral infections.

But vaccines should not be mandatory in the public. But, people should get vaccinated because it is the right thing to do. But, sadly, this country is filled with pathetic people who want to shirk common decency, all while suffering no negative consequences. It is just a delusional mindset. We see it every day in this thread.
Well...at least we agree on one aspect of vaccines not being mandatory. But to Bhattacharya's piece that I posted, I don't think it's the right thing to do for everyone. It isn't necessary for government to demand that those with natural immunity or the young & healthy take the vaccine when those with NI are well protected while the young & healthy have a very low risk of serious illness & death.

Medicine isn't an exact science & these vaccines come with risks. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the risks for most people - especially the elderly & those with underlying health issues who are at a higher risk of developing complications from Covid. But there are people who have suffered serious side-effects from the vaccines, some with permanent damage, who are getting no sympathy nor understanding from the medical community. These people are simply being told you needed to "take one for the team." That's why I'm a strong advocate of "Informed Consent" when it comes to any medical procedure/intervention.
 
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Saying that vaccines can't stop variants is flat out wrong. And is antivax nonsense.

36,000+ people in their 40s have died from covid19 in the US. Thymic involution and the generally poor health of Americans make them a lot more susceptible than U40s.
I thought you were saying I was in my 40's with the offhanded comments about healthy or fit 40 year olds. I said 40's? If you think I'm in my 40's you are so wrong. But you have been wrong before so.
 
So does natural immunity. I fail to understand why you're so obstinate with the benefits of post-infection immunity? Surely you recognize the power of a healthy immune system in fighting off viral & bacterial infections? I'm sure with your background & expertise, you could easily give a Ted talk about the effectiveness of a healthy adaptive immune system in generating B & T cell lymphocytes in fighting off viral infections.

Well...at least we agree on one aspect of vaccines not being mandatory. But to Bhattacharya's piece that I posted, I don't think it's the right thing to do for everyone. It isn't necessary for government to demand that those with natural immunity or the young & healthy take the vaccine when those with NI are well protected while the young & healthy have a very low risk of serious illness & death.

Medicine isn't an exact science & these vaccines come with risks. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the risks for most people - especially the elderly & those with underlying health issues who are at a higher risk of developing complications from Covid. But there are people who have suffered serious side-effects from the vaccines, some with permanent damage, who are getting no sympathy nor understanding from the medical community. These people are simply being told you needed to "take one for the team." That's why I'm a strong advocate of "Informed Consent" when it comes to any medical procedure/intervention.
It's pretty clear that the idea of natural immunity is emerging and waning....it doesn't last forever.
" It isn't necessary for government to demand that those with natural immunity or the young & healthy take the vaccine when those with NI are well protected while the young & healthy have a very low risk of serious illness & death."
My 11 yo Grandson has had Covid twice in 2 months.
While we agree that the knowledge is emerging about prevention and societal adaptation to the various strains. Mandate concepts are equally trailing the actual evolution of spread and impact.
The idea that anyone is protected by "natural immunity" is equally evolving and the facts are clear: natural immunity is fleeting. The argument for it is as well.
Taking a hard stand on a protocol of either extreme is now obviously a political conceit that podcasters and zealots cling to. Healthy people die, young get the bug.
 
It's pretty clear that the idea of natural immunity is emerging and waning....it doesn't last forever.
" It isn't necessary for government to demand that those with natural immunity or the young & healthy take the vaccine when those with NI are well protected while the young & healthy have a very low risk of serious illness & death."
My 11 yo Grandson has had Covid twice in 2 months.
While we agree that the knowledge is emerging about prevention and societal adaptation to the various strains. Mandate concepts are equally trailing the actual evolution of spread and impact.
The idea that anyone is protected by "natural immunity" is equally evolving and the facts are clear: natural immunity is fleeting. The argument for it is as well.
Taking a hard stand on a protocol of either extreme is now obviously a political conceit that podcasters and zealots cling to. Healthy people die, young get the bug.
So your 11 yo grandson's natural immunity helped him twice. I am guessing but I assume he didn't get very ill ? Many millions have been vaccinated and still caught and/or transmitted covid so I am not sure what your point is? Both vaccines and natural immunity don't last forever. But I am certain that natural immunity beats vaccination but is still no guarantee to stop getting ill.

As for this....

Healthy people die, young get the bug.
Of course, but these stats show the young are at far lower risk (scroll down to Cases and deaths by age and sex):-

Coronavirus (COVID-19) case numbers and statistics | Australian Government Department of Health
 
It's pretty clear that the idea of natural immunity is emerging and waning....it doesn't last forever.
Both the antibodies from either infection or vaccines are warning & don't last forever. What I'm talking about are long-lasting "T cells" acquired from infections that prevent serious illness. I had posted over the past couple of months here several studies on this. Perhaps you missed it & didn't get a chance to look over any of this information. Here are some of the links:


"Patients who survived COVID-19 have such strong natural immunity that their chance or reinfection or serious side effects is minimal, according to a new study published in the New England Journal of Medicine."

"Reinfections had 90% lower odds in resulting in hospitalizations, NEJM study found"




Interestingly, Survivors from SARS-CoV-1 back in 2004 showed that those individuals had lasting "memory T cells" today, 17 years after the outbreak which recognized parts of SARS-CoV-2.


"T cells don’t prevent infection, but they do help to prevent the virus from spreading to other cells and to clear an infection that has already started, which could spell the difference between mild and severe disease."


There's more studies that I'm not going to clog up this post with - you're fully capable of researching this probably much better than my research skills can. Keep in mind that I'm just considered by the vaccine extremists as some stupid, ignorant, dumb, moronic anti-vaxxer who just got very lucky surviving two bouts of Covid. Lol. I'm not taken seriously by the extremists and find lately that my only allies are other unvaccinated who survived bouts(s) of Covid without severe illness. So, it goes pretty much with the territory these days with the war against the natural immune.

Que Sera Sera
 
Both vaccines and natural immunity don't last forever. But I am certain that natural immunity beats vaccination but is still no guarantee to stop getting ill.
I don't think the evidence supports that second part. Boosters provide antibody titers much higher than infection induced antibodies. Then this came out the other day, showing that the T cells are even more potent in response to the vaccines.

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1482837513928544256


And if you get long covid from infection, really strong data now shows that vaccination can provide relief from that

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/epi_michael/status/1483143937359495172
 
I don't think the evidence supports that second part. Boosters provide antibody titers much higher than infection induced antibodies. Then this came out the other day, showing that the T cells are even more potent in response to the vaccines
"medrxiv" is funded by the "Chan Zuckerberg Initiative."


Zuckerberg's spouse, Priscilla Chan is the co-founder. She's a liberal & extremist who's made large contributions to Democratic candidates. The Initiative has also given grants to numerous left-of-center and left-wing nonprofits. The study is basised toward natural immunity and again like other industry-funded studies promotes vaccines as the one-size-fits-all montra.

Let's just cut to the case here & dispense with the BS: Liberal leadership is against those with natural immunity because it would derail their agenda of maximizimg vaccination. It's only the states & cities under Democratic control that have implemented these BS unconstitutional vaccine mandates/passports that DISCRIMINATE against the natural immune & unvaccinated infringing on individual freedom of choice in medical decisions!
 
"medrxiv" is funded by the "Chan Zuckerberg Initiative."


Zuckerberg's spouse, Priscilla Chan is the co-founder. She's a liberal & extremist who's made large contributions to Democratic candidates. The Initiative has also given grants to numerous left-of-center and left-wing nonprofits. The study is basised toward natural immunity and again like other industry-funded studies promotes vaccines as the one-size-fits-all montra.

Let's just cut to the case here & dispense with the BS: Liberal leadership is against those with natural immunity because it would derail their agenda of maximizimg vaccination. It's only the states & cities under Democratic control that have implemented these BS unconstitutional vaccine mandates/passports that DISCRIMINATE against the natural immune & unvaccinated infringing on individual freedom of choice in medical decisions!
While we appreciate the information; you immediately follow with a labelling of Priscilla Chan and a tie to an agenda that may or may not exist and then a general conclusion about certain cities, with a conclusion about legal opinion on constitutionality of local health mandates. That's alot of tied together speculation and opinion that would require a degree in poli-science, constitutional law and bio-chem. Or a cut/paste from a specific news source that would probably not be included in the fake media world.

This is where the "be better" police should remind you about politization and request a ban from the Mods.

We can cut to another chase: as knowledge grows about the viral outbreak genesis and treatment, so to does the policies evolve. Or they should and so should prejudicial attitudes. Wouldn't you agree? Reply before a sensitive person Mods you out.
 
"medrxiv" is funded by the "Chan Zuckerberg Initiative."


Zuckerberg's spouse, Priscilla Chan is the co-founder. She's a liberal & extremist who's made large contributions to Democratic candidates. The Initiative has also given grants to numerous left-of-center and left-wing nonprofits. The study is basised toward natural immunity and again like other industry-funded studies promotes vaccines as the one-size-fits-all montra.

Let's just cut to the case here & dispense with the BS: Liberal leadership is against those with natural immunity because it would derail their agenda of maximizimg vaccination. It's only the states & cities under Democratic control that have implemented these BS unconstitutional vaccine mandates/passports that DISCRIMINATE against the natural immune & unvaccinated infringing on individual freedom of choice in medical decisions!
Don't fall into the political trap like a few here did over and over. Do better be better. Some here want you to fall into it because they want to silence your opinion.
 
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"medrxiv" is funded by the "Chan Zuckerberg Initiative."


Zuckerberg's spouse, Priscilla Chan is the co-founder. She's a liberal & extremist who's made large contributions to Democratic candidates. The Initiative has also given grants to numerous left-of-center and left-wing nonprofits. The study is basised toward natural immunity and again like other industry-funded studies promotes vaccines as the one-size-fits-all montra.

Let's just cut to the case here & dispense with the BS: Liberal leadership is against those with natural immunity because it would derail their agenda of maximizimg vaccination. It's only the states & cities under Democratic control that have implemented these BS unconstitutional vaccine mandates/passports that DISCRIMINATE against the natural immune & unvaccinated infringing on individual freedom of choice in medical decisions!
Maybe this is not clear, but medrxiv is just a place to upload preprints that people can read for free before they are reviewed, edited, and published in journals where many might not have access outside of academic subscriptions. The research was not funded by medrxiv or industry. It lists grants from the U.S. Govt (like the majority of biomedical labs in this country) as the source of funding.
 
"medrxiv" is funded by the "Chan Zuckerberg Initiative."


Zuckerberg's spouse, Priscilla Chan is the co-founder. She's a liberal & extremist who's made large contributions to Democratic candidates. The Initiative has also given grants to numerous left-of-center and left-wing nonprofits. The study is basised toward natural immunity and again like other industry-funded studies promotes vaccines as the one-size-fits-all montra.

Let's just cut to the case here & dispense with the BS: Liberal leadership is against those with natural immunity because it would derail their agenda of maximizimg vaccination. It's only the states & cities under Democratic control that have implemented these BS unconstitutional vaccine mandates/passports that DISCRIMINATE against the natural immune & unvaccinated infringing on individual freedom of choice in medical decisions!
After my previous reply you need to come at me like the other people here in the thread with these few attacks.
Tell me I am huffing gas or something along those lines.
After the gas comments come at me with the subtle use of the word Facist. Disguise it like you are Facistnated with a post of mine. All of those are acceptable here.
 
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Maybe this is not clear, but medrxiv is just a place to upload preprints that people can read for free before they are reviewed, edited, and published in journals where many might not have access outside of academic subscriptions. The research was not funded by medrxiv or industry. It lists grants from the U.S. Govt (like the majority of biomedical labs in this country) as the source of funding.
Exactly like the majority of biomed. Its all funded by the U.S. Gov. Which was the case with covid and the NIH. Show me the money.
 

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