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Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Playing the political angle. No one wants to talk about that in the covid thread.

Again with the tyranny talk. It's a health emergency, not the collapse of all mankind. By the way; did they ever actually lock anybody up? I never heard...
The Omicron variant wasn't a health emergency. And yeah, they're were locking up the unvaccinated, even if you had natural immunity, back in Nov. That's called "following the science." Lol

 
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Still believe lock-downs do not work. Also believe people in power are evil and freaks - tyrants for forcing that on the children.
When someone is outside running in a mask or walking the dog alone all while wearing a mask yes I certainly do believe they are freaks or have issues.

 
It's weird to me all the P words..but previously polio ,pandemic,patriotism,pragmatism,politics didn't have the current disastrous mix. In all branches of the United States military..best guess by all services because of record keeping..less than @300 cases of vaccine anything, so as to say,if you were allergic..okay a problem that needs to be solved, when you enter, no discussion or compromise. You are required to get a standard battery of vaccines or you don't pass go. Simply understood,universal. When you get specific deployment vaccines..you need to get them as the initial part of executing your orders..trust me..getting Africa specific vaccines is not fun..but getting some exotic affliction isn't either. And yes there is complaining..before,during and after vaccination, but again it's just universal understanding that vaccines and military service are not able to be separated. DOD reports are saying that they have never seen anything like this in the history of our military..there was no such thing as widespread vaccine resistance or hesitancy at any measurable numbers before @2..2.5 years ago? Gotta ask why.
in other parts of American history,young and old got vaccines to save their lives,the lives of others and save the country from suffering,despair and death..just what you did,universally understood. That's not revisionist..it's fact. In my years of service and school, getting vaccines was not a issue of debate. Getting a physical for sports,again there was no argument because there was no option.
I get all the free speech,free will,freedom stuff but it looks like some basic benchmarks have been lost in the details..@17,000 before we reach 1 million dead..all those people are not debating anything, no discussion about loss of !liberty..universally understand that dead men tell no tales
I can only speak from my experience, but twice a year when I was in the Army we got several shots (jet injections) on our way to morning chow. I never heard anyone even question it. The only complaints were about being late for food. When I in-processed there were about 500 of us in an armory field house getting shots, and there was no commotion. We also got specific shots for 'trips' to other locations, again, I never heard anyone complain.

As has been widely documented, the USA armed forces have become a hot bed of extremism so its not surprising that vaccine fear has grabbed a few soldiers. Service wide less than .005 percent of soldiers have been discharged over vaccine issues. Alcohol issues wash out about 10X more GIs.
 
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The Omicron variant wasn't a health emergency. And yeah, they're were locking up the unvaccinated, even if you had natural immunity, back in Nov. That's called "following the science." Lol

So the Austrian's were prosecuting and incarcerating citizens for not being immunized? Did they actually fine anybody? Honestly asking because I'd not read that anyone was sent to jail or fined for not taking the vaccine. Almost no one that lives in a democratic society would find it tolerable. By the way; a public safety quarantine is a different thing.

Your lead in to the subject: vaccine compulsory for all adults with a major fine & possible incarceration for those that didn't comply. Not sure what authoritative source provided that information.

All of the talk of tyranny and government overreach has become a chorus of dog-whistles supporting a narrow perspective. That, and when some ridicule and assign derogatory names to anyone that voluntarily and individually choses to protect themselves betrays at total prejudice. Fear makes people go to panic and draw simple conclusions. The more fearful; the simpler the characterizations. While you don't think Omicron represented a health emergency there are people in actual Health Care that still had to tend to the ill and dying...from Omicron.
 
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Something about quoting the Brownstone Institute, founded last year seems a bit less academic than peer-reviewed. Their bias skews pretty much to the narrative some would embrace and others could characterize as self fulfilling.
 
Still believe lock-downs do not work. Also believe people in power are evil and freaks - tyrants for forcing that on the children.
When someone is outside running in a mask or walking the dog alone all while wearing a mask yes I certainly do believe they are freaks or have issues.
I believe that lockdowns done properly over a longer period of time do work as a way of reigning in the spread of the virus . As long as most people are compliant and observe the protocols recommended. The shorter lockdowns with less restrictions are a waste of time. Many countries were doing it differently with variable results. As for the side effects and problems of locking down for an extended period of time, there is no doubt for many people its hard to stomach especially for children, people in aged care, and people with medical issues and psychological issues but I also believe that a percentage of people are the ones that just don't like having their lives restricted in any way at all including the wearing of masks, social distancing etc. At least the people with severe medical conditions generally understand why a lockdown is happening. But with the more infectious strains of the virus, lock downs have been less successful although most countries had opened up or were halfway there as Omicron appeared.

Now we are seeing the effect also on the medical system whereby hospital wards were used mainly for Covid patients and general surgery was postponed or cancelled except for the most urgent cases. My state at the moment has a backlog of 90,000 elective surgery cases but staffing was also one of the major issues, not just governments reallocating resources for Covid patients. And some medical staff were sometimes getting re-infected or having to quarantine with family members infected. Many actually died especially during the first year of the pandemic when governments were floundering with their strategies and proper PPE wasn't regularly available. It seems there will never be consensus on the wearing of masks and the need for social distancing even between local cities let alone states and countries. And governments and medical bodies didn't really help, with the constant mixed messaging.
 
Something about quoting the Brownstone Institute, founded last year seems a bit less academic than peer-reviewed. Their bias skews pretty much to the narrative some would embrace and others could characterize as self fulfilling.
Important to note that the founder of the institute claimed that herd immunity could be reached by the end of 2020 without restrictions.
 
So the Austrian's were prosecuting and incarcerating citizens for not being immunized? Did they actually fine anybody? Honestly asking because I'd not read that anyone was sent to jail or fined for not taking the vaccine. Almost no one that lives in a democratic society would find it tolerable. By the way; a public safety quarantine is a different thing.

Your lead in to the subject: vaccine compulsory for all adults with a major fine & possible incarceration for those that didn't comply. Not sure what authoritative source provided that information.

All of the talk of tyranny and government overreach has become a chorus of dog-whistles supporting a narrow perspective. That, and when some ridicule and assign derogatory names to anyone that voluntarily and individually choses to protect themselves betrays at total prejudice. Fear makes people go to panic and draw simple conclusions. The more fearful; the simpler the characterizations. While you don't think Omicron represented a health emergency there are people in actual Health Care that still had to tend to the ill and dying...from Omicron.
Oh, my bad. Omicron didn't have much of an effect, except:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/26/nyregion/police-vaccine-nj.html
 
And to those that think the overweight are at fault for their situation; this example of the opportunists that espouse "alternative" treatments for almost everything and mix in a little Ol Time Religion to reinforce the faith and secure a financial payoff:



The Death of Gwen Shamblin, a Fat-Shaming Cult Leader Whose Plane Crashed on the Way to a MAGA Rally
Nick Schager - 8h ago
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Cults make prophetic promises they can almost never fulfill, which in turn leads them to revise those guarantees in order to keep their flock in line and their scams alive. In that regard, few have faced a bigger obstacle than the Remnant Fellowship Church, whose founder and leader Gwen Shamblin routinely preached that being faithful to God—primarily by maintaining a slim waistline and training children to be docile and subservient—resulted in glorious financial, familial, and spiritual rewards. That was all well and good during the prosperous Remnant Fellowship times, but it became an onerous problem on May 29, 2021, when a plane piloted by Shamblin’s husband Joe Lara crashed on its way to a Florida MAGA rally, instantly killing Shamblin and everyone else on board.

That tragedy served as a de facto cliffhanger for The Way Down: God, Greed, and the Cult of Gwen Shamblin, HBO Max’s docuseries from last September, and it’s where director Marina Zenovich picks up with The Way Down Part 2, a two-installment coda that investigates what this calamity has meant for the Remnant Fellowship Church and Shamblin’s attendant Weigh Down Workshop diet business. The latter was the vehicle that first brought fame and fortune to Shamblin herself, a nutritionist who argued that true believers should transfer their hunger for food into devotion to the Almighty. It was a program that contended that shedding pounds was an act of piousness, and via books, VHS tapes, and in-church classes, it made Shamblin a national sensation. Moreover, it allowed her to form the Remnant Fellowship Church, a Brentwood, Tennessee-based religious organization that Zenovich’s exposé revealed to be an insular Christian cult that punished the heavyset, isolated members from friends and relatives, brainwashed children into embracing its Holy Trinity-denying doctrine, oppressed women through misogynistic power structures, and urged parents to abuse and beat their children into obedient submission.
Notable for both her charismatic sermons and her ever-growing hair (which eventually topped out at a remarkable foot-high beehive), Shamblin promoted the notion that splendid things came to those who knelt before God, while bad things were the byproduct of unfaithfulness. Thus, her untimely demise—even more than the prior, sudden death of her granddaughter—was a monumental complication for the church. The Way Down’s second part is curious about how the organization’s leaders will explain this situation to their legions of members, and whether anyone will buy what they’re selling. Yet what it comes up with is more than a bit deflating. Waiting six months before delivering its final two installments was, apparently, not long enough, as director Zenovich offers few insights into the future of Remnant Fellowship Church, whose plans for reconfiguring its doctrine—and hierarchical structure—remain in flux, or at least still largely hidden from public view.
 
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And to those that think the overweight are at fault for their situation; this example of the opportunists that espouse "alternative" treatments for almost everything and mix in a little Ol Time Religion to reinforce the faith and secure a financial payoff:



The Death of Gwen Shamblin, a Fat-Shaming Cult Leader Whose Plane Crashed on the Way to a MAGA Rally
Nick Schager - 8h ago
FollowView Profile
React2k Comments|

Cults make prophetic promises they can almost never fulfill, which in turn leads them to revise those guarantees in order to keep their flock in line and their scams alive. In that regard, few have faced a bigger obstacle than the Remnant Fellowship Church, whose founder and leader Gwen Shamblin routinely preached that being faithful to God—primarily by maintaining a slim waistline and training children to be docile and subservient—resulted in glorious financial, familial, and spiritual rewards. That was all well and good during the prosperous Remnant Fellowship times, but it became an onerous problem on May 29, 2021, when a plane piloted by Shamblin’s husband Joe Lara crashed on its way to a Florida MAGA rally, instantly killing Shamblin and everyone else on board.

That tragedy served as a de facto cliffhanger for The Way Down: God, Greed, and the Cult of Gwen Shamblin, HBO Max’s docuseries from last September, and it’s where director Marina Zenovich picks up with The Way Down Part 2, a two-installment coda that investigates what this calamity has meant for the Remnant Fellowship Church and Shamblin’s attendant Weigh Down Workshop diet business. The latter was the vehicle that first brought fame and fortune to Shamblin herself, a nutritionist who argued that true believers should transfer their hunger for food into devotion to the Almighty. It was a program that contended that shedding pounds was an act of piousness, and via books, VHS tapes, and in-church classes, it made Shamblin a national sensation. Moreover, it allowed her to form the Remnant Fellowship Church, a Brentwood, Tennessee-based religious organization that Zenovich’s exposé revealed to be an insular Christian cult that punished the heavyset, isolated members from friends and relatives, brainwashed children into embracing its Holy Trinity-denying doctrine, oppressed women through misogynistic power structures, and urged parents to abuse and beat their children into obedient submission.
Notable for both her charismatic sermons and her ever-growing hair (which eventually topped out at a remarkable foot-high beehive), Shamblin promoted the notion that splendid things came to those who knelt before God, while bad things were the byproduct of unfaithfulness. Thus, her untimely demise—even more than the prior, sudden death of her granddaughter—was a monumental complication for the church. The Way Down’s second part is curious about how the organization’s leaders will explain this situation to their legions of members, and whether anyone will buy what they’re selling. Yet what it comes up with is more than a bit deflating. Waiting six months before delivering its final two installments was, apparently, not long enough, as director Zenovich offers few insights into the future of Remnant Fellowship Church, whose plans for reconfiguring its doctrine—and hierarchical structure—remain in flux, or at least still largely hidden from public view.
we get it, all fat people are victims. it's never their fault.
 
we get it, all fat people are victims. it's never their fault.
I didn't for one second suggest that and never have. I've always landed on the side of extreme fitness activity to avoid aging and illness. My point is purely this: exploitation of fear and faith for profit has had as much influence on current covid outcomes as any initiative because that exploitation targets a specific audience. Playing on prejudices has been a strategy of some since Covid first began. In fact; we can look back at attitudes toward Covid early on (posts here) suggesting Covid was a non-existent hoax and a tool for exploitation by...."tyrants". Now, the very same skeptics about Covid would blame current day governments for a higher periodic death rate which boggles the mind on their pretzel-logic! What was "overblown" or a "hoax" is now the fault of their favorite scapegoats. They can't have it both ways.
Debating the evolution and response to a crisis is worthwhile but much energy has been expended on labelling and blaming opposing opinions and warping and overblowing the intentions of those attempting to solve a historically unique problem.

Gwen Shamblin was a small part of the alternative marketing of vitamins, treatments and behaviors that have little to no benefit. They target a market that has reliably listened to a narrow information feed and faithfully will ignore facts simply because they've been taught to "believe". Back to my reference to Dark Ages clergy blaming plague victims for lack of faith because they had no answer and recognized an opportunity to demonize the non-faithful.
 
It's pretty simple - Countries locked down to prevent deaths before the introduction of a vaccine - Once a vaxxed country opens up then deaths still continue allbeit at a lower rate, first amongst the unvaccinated, then to a subset of a vaxxed population - Vaccines are valuable, but they are not infallible.
 
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And to those that think the overweight are at fault for their situation; this example of the opportunists that espouse "alternative" treatments for almost everything and mix in a little Ol Time Religion to reinforce the faith and secure a financial payoff:



The Death of Gwen Shamblin, a Fat-Shaming Cult Leader Whose Plane Crashed on the Way to a MAGA Rally
Nick Schager - 8h ago
FollowView Profile
React2k Comments|

Cults make prophetic promises they can almost never fulfill, which in turn leads them to revise those guarantees in order to keep their flock in line and their scams alive. In that regard, few have faced a bigger obstacle than the Remnant Fellowship Church, whose founder and leader Gwen Shamblin routinely preached that being faithful to God—primarily by maintaining a slim waistline and training children to be docile and subservient—resulted in glorious financial, familial, and spiritual rewards. That was all well and good during the prosperous Remnant Fellowship times, but it became an onerous problem on May 29, 2021, when a plane piloted by Shamblin’s husband Joe Lara crashed on its way to a Florida MAGA rally, instantly killing Shamblin and everyone else on board.

That tragedy served as a de facto cliffhanger for The Way Down: God, Greed, and the Cult of Gwen Shamblin, HBO Max’s docuseries from last September, and it’s where director Marina Zenovich picks up with The Way Down Part 2, a two-installment coda that investigates what this calamity has meant for the Remnant Fellowship Church and Shamblin’s attendant Weigh Down Workshop diet business. The latter was the vehicle that first brought fame and fortune to Shamblin herself, a nutritionist who argued that true believers should transfer their hunger for food into devotion to the Almighty. It was a program that contended that shedding pounds was an act of piousness, and via books, VHS tapes, and in-church classes, it made Shamblin a national sensation. Moreover, it allowed her to form the Remnant Fellowship Church, a Brentwood, Tennessee-based religious organization that Zenovich’s exposé revealed to be an insular Christian cult that punished the heavyset, isolated members from friends and relatives, brainwashed children into embracing its Holy Trinity-denying doctrine, oppressed women through misogynistic power structures, and urged parents to abuse and beat their children into obedient submission.
Notable for both her charismatic sermons and her ever-growing hair (which eventually topped out at a remarkable foot-high beehive), Shamblin promoted the notion that splendid things came to those who knelt before God, while bad things were the byproduct of unfaithfulness. Thus, her untimely demise—even more than the prior, sudden death of her granddaughter—was a monumental complication for the church. The Way Down’s second part is curious about how the organization’s leaders will explain this situation to their legions of members, and whether anyone will buy what they’re selling. Yet what it comes up with is more than a bit deflating. Waiting six months before delivering its final two installments was, apparently, not long enough, as director Zenovich offers few insights into the future of Remnant Fellowship Church, whose plans for reconfiguring its doctrine—and hierarchical structure—remain in flux, or at least still largely hidden from public view.
I watched the first part and enjoyed this. Have not seen part 2.

Somewhat related to this, I am starting to notice a few people exhibiting cult like behavior around long covid. It has the style of a doomsday cult around the belief that reinfections will continue until everyone gets long covid and society as we know it collapses. There are a few educated people involved in this, but they are often derogatively referred to as covidians by their critics (in reference to the Waco folks for those not up on their US religious cults). Personally, I am not very persuaded by their arguments but it is interesting how these little fragmentary groups form thanks to social media.
 
I watched the first part and enjoyed this. Have not seen part 2.

Somewhat related to this, I am starting to notice a few people exhibiting cult like behavior around long covid. It has the style of a doomsday cult around the belief that reinfections will continue until everyone gets long covid and society as we know it collapses. There are a few educated people involved in this, but they are often derogatively referred to as covidians by their critics (in reference to the Waco folks for those not up on their US religious cults). Personally, I am not very persuaded by their arguments but it is interesting how these little fragmentary groups form thanks to social media.
It is likely that many people will have some level of long covid, but I can't imagine society as we know it collapsing because of it. Honestly, I don't really even see society being affected very much by it (maybe a little less productive?).

For example, my friend who had long covid still lived her normal life she was just tired, but she couldn't ride her bike very much because of fatigue and shortness of breath with exertion.
 
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So the Austrian's were prosecuting and incarcerating citizens for not being immunized? Did they actually fine anybody? Honestly asking because I'd not read that anyone was sent to jail or fined for not taking the vaccine. Almost no one that lives in a democratic society would find it tolerable. By the way; a public safety quarantine is a different thing.

Your lead in to the subject: vaccine compulsory for all adults with a major fine & possible incarceration for those that didn't comply. Not sure what authoritative source provided that information.

All of the talk of tyranny and government overreach has become a chorus of dog-whistles supporting a narrow perspective. That, and when some ridicule and assign derogatory names to anyone that voluntarily and individually choses to protect themselves betrays at total prejudice. Fear makes people go to panic and draw simple conclusions. The more fearful; the simpler the characterizations. While you don't think Omicron represented a health emergency there are people in actual Health Care that still had to tend to the ill and dying...from Omicron.
What do you mean you're not sure "what authoritative source provided that information." Try the Austrian government. Lol.


 
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Important to note that the founder of the institute claimed that herd immunity could be reached by the end of 2020 without restrictions.
Yeah...and it's important to note the CDC director said last year that vaccinated people don't carry the virus nor get sick. Lol. Tit for tat Jmdirt.

 
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Something about quoting the Brownstone Institute, founded last year seems a bit less academic than peer-reviewed. Their bias skews pretty much to the narrative some would embrace and others could characterize as self fulfilling.
Meh... of course you're going to make a comment like. Remember we're adversaries; you're pro-Covid vaxx & I'm anti-vaxx Covid vaxx. I have natural immunity protection & you have vaccine-induced immunity. So we're even...we just have different pathways that achieved protection against severe disease & death.

You simply don't like me...and well, you know my answer to that. We'd probably have a pretty good knockdown, dragout, face to face argument over the Covid/vaccine issue. Lol. And I've had a few pretty heated arguments with a couple of "ex-friends" of mine from the gym over the vaxx mandate & natural immunity issues. I don't back down against pro-vaxx mandate bullies...period. When the pro-vaxx extremists start to show some respect for people like me who have natural immunity having survived Covidx2 with flying colors needing no medical intervention whatsoever then I'll start changing my attitude.
 
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What do you mean you're not sure "what authoritative source provided that information." Try the Austrian government. Lol.


LOL, yourself. I asked:
Your lead in to the subject: vaccine compulsory for all adults with a major fine & possible incarceration for those that didn't comply. Not sure what authoritative source provided that information.
Your gleeful response is a Nov '21 story from CNBC, Dec.'21 story from Al Jazeera. Neither story represented that any citizen had been fined or jailed. That's the question I've asked because, at the time; almost every reasonable source was discouraging application of those government measures. Proposed measures and programs not applied do not equal "tyranny". If there was someone jailed for refusing to get vaccinated your outrage at government would be better placed and we'd all appreciate the confirmation.
 
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Meh... of course you're going to make a comment like. Remember we're adversaries; you're pro-Covid vaxx & I'm anti-vaxx Covid vaxx. I have natural immunity protection & you have vaccine-induced immunity. So we're even...we just have different pathways that achieved protection against severe disease & death.

You simply don't like me...and well, you know my answer to that. We'd probably have a pretty good knockdown, dragout, face to face argument over the Covid/vaccine issue. Lol. And I've had a few pretty heated arguments with a couple of "ex-friends" of mine from the gym over the vaxx mandate & natural immunity issues. I don't back down against pro-vaxx mandate bullies...period. When the pro-vaxx extremists start to show some respect for people like me who have natural immunity having survived Covidx2 with flying colors needing no medical intervention whatsoever then I'll start changing my attitude.
Sorry to disappoint you but you don't know sh*t about me. Your prejudice prevents you from reading reasonable arguments and grouping me with "extremists" is ignorant. I've been an advocate for the rights of anyone that doesn't want to be vaccinated as long as they respected the health of others and have posted here repeatedly.

I believe I got Covid in February '20. No testing or vaccines were available so the infection date could be different. Testing in current times suggests I was infected and have the antibodies you represent as the zenith of athletic and healty well-being. I have also taken vaccines because I am older and around folks far less healthy and at risk. It's me being careful for their behalf and assuring that if I got another Covid variant I wouldn't suffer so much. No losers in that situation IMO. My wife tested positive for Omicron with no consequences to her health. I didn't get it; likely because I had been vaccinated.

I am pro-health and, if you'd read my responses you'd know my brother followed your path and presumed he'd never get it. He did and Omicron had him on his knees. He apologized for not seeking testing after he had symptoms; placing my wife's employment at risk. He's better now and he assumes he has forever immunity. He has your profile down. I still like him but certainly don't know you.
I wouldn't bully you but, if you proudly took no precautions and weren't vaccinated around my at-risk family or friends I'd invite you to go your gym or wherever folks that don't know sht and don't care sht about the health of others and stay there.
 
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LOL, yourself. I asked:
Your lead in to the subject: vaccine compulsory for all adults with a major fine & possible incarceration for those that didn't comply. Not sure what authoritative source provided that information.
Your gleeful response is a Nov '21 story from CNBC, Dec.'21 story from Al Jazeera. Neither story represented that any citizen had been fined or jailed. That's the question I've asked because, at the time; almost every reasonable source was discouraging application of those government measures. Proposed measures and programs not applied do not equal "tyranny". If there was someone jailed for refusing to get vaccinated your outrage at government would be better placed and we'd all appreciate the confirmation.
What do you not understand about the Austrian lockdown of the UNVACCINATED implemented by the government last November? FFS, the unvaccinated weren't asked to kindly stay home - they were ORDERED to stay home with the only exception being going to work, getting groceries, medical treatment, etc. If you left for any other reason other than the above, and you were stopped by the police, you could be fined. I would imagine if you resisted the stop & detainment, were uncooperative, ran from the police, etc. - you'd be arrested & charged. I doubt if someone who is stopped by the police & asked to see their vaccination papers - who decides to give the police the finger & just walk off, that the Police will just let them walk away wishing them a nice day. Lol. Watch the video here where the police are walking the streets randomly stopping people & checking their papers. Not something that would be tolerated in the U.S. (at least now but who knows in the future).

View: https://youtu.be/ju57g4446DU

5 officers surrounding this elderly lady - I'm sure she's a real threat to their safety:

View: https://youtu.be/a4UMhyCOGNk
 
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