• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

Page 86 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Translated newspaper article about the study discussed here earlier about viral loads in children by Drosten:

That's an awful lot of words with very little meat. The most significant passage seems to be this:

In their own analyzes, statisticians even come to very different conclusions than Drosten and his team. "In this study, children have on average 67 to 85 percent less virus load than adults," Christoph Rothe, a professor at the University of Mannheim specializing in statistics, summarized the findings of a fellow statistician on Twitter last weekend.

So I took a look at Drosten's paper:

https://zoonosen.charite.de/fileadm...s-of-SARS-CoV-2-viral-load-by-patient-age.pdf

They divide the population tested into ten age groups, ten year periods from 1-10 to 91-100. They do an alternative analysis of kindergarten, grade school, high school, university, adult, mature. The two youngest age groups have a much lower positive rate than the other age groups, which they ascribe to children being more likely to be asymptomatic, so more positive cases remain unconfirmed.

(As an aside, they also note that the children who had been hospitalized had lower viral loads than children who tested positive in more general testing regimes. They account for this by noting that hospitalized children will be further beyond initial symptom appearance, when viral loads decline. This supports the point made in my previous post, that infectivity declines rapidly a few days after symptoms appear).

The authors then measure viral loads, where it gets really messy. The two youngest groups have the lowest viral loads, less than half of any of the other age groups, except one, which is still about 50% higher. The same pattern is seen with the other classification, except that the grade school group actually has the highest viral load. But kindergarten and high school are less than half of the others. This is consistent with the quote that the children have 67-85% less loads. In fact, the mean viral load of the 1-10 group is about 70% lower than that of the lowest (but one) of the older groups, and almost 90% lower than the highest of the older groups.

The problem is that there is considerable variability, particularly for the two youngest age groups (and the oldest age group), which have the smallest sample sizes (5-10 times less than the others). This results in a much larger standard error, which obscures the differences between these two youngest ages and the other ages. Looking at the data, if the sample size for these two groups were comparable to that for the other groups, so the standard errors were the same as for the latter, with the same means, the differences definitely would be significant.

To complicate matters further, the authors show that the viral loads are not distributed normally, neither for the entire dataset, nor for each age group. Looking at the data, it appears that as the groups get older, a more normal distribution is approached, but it's never completely normal, and in any case, some of this effect may be because the sample size is generally greater for the older groups.

Why are the viral loads not normally distributed? The authors don't comment on this, but from the infectivity curve I referred to in a Nature Med paper, one would expect that since viral loads start declining after symptoms appear, and people are generally tested only after symptoms appear, viral loads would have to follow a non-normal distribution. They're being measured not along a symmetric curve, but only over the declining half of such a curve (which isn't symmetric, for that matter). Now some people might be tested because they were in close contact with someone with symptoms or who has tested positive, in which case they might be on the ascending portion of the curve. But that's likely to be only a few days, whereas the descending portion goes on for much longer.

Anyway, because of the lack of normality, the authors chose several statistical tests that don't depend on this. They performed pairwise comparisons between each of the groups, and found no significant differences for the ten age groups. Using the other group classification, they found a significant difference between the kindergarten group and the oldest group, but no other significant differences.

I'm not qualified to comment on the statistics, except to repeat, the relatively small sample size of the two youngest groups is a serious problem, but this is clearly where the criticisms of Drosten's study are coming from. The very big differences in means strongly suggest that children do have significantly lower viral loads, but the statistics Drosten uses can't establish this. Whether other statisticians can, just from the data presented, I don't know, but clearly an analysis of more positive children could resolve this.

Hopefully. However, given, as I mentioned before, that viral loads depend critical on when in relationship to symptom emergence the person is tested, the timing of testing is critical. People who get tested because of recent exposure to the virus are likely to have higher loads, whereas people who get tested only several days after symptoms appear will have lower loads. . Drosten doesn't address this, but his study seems to avoid this for the most part by testing people without regard to symptoms, In other words, there is an approximately random distribution of people with regard to where they are relative to symptom appearance. But as in any large-scale testing regime that isn't truly random, we can't rule out that some people were tested because they had symptoms, or because they were in contact with people who were or might be postive. These people could skew lower or higher in viral loads.

Drosten also comments that if infected children are more often asymptomatic (though this is a common assumption, I don't think there are any data that actually support it), then they will be less likely to spread the virus by coughing. Also, because they are physically smaller than adults, they will spread the virus less distance through the air by coughing or breathing. But against those arguments, he also points out that children are more likely to engage in frequent, multiple interactions with others.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jmdirt
Children have terrible personal hygiene. There is a reason why viruses (in general) thrive in daycares and schools. Middle school boys are not much better. Very handsy with each other.

The devil is in the details and statistics have been hotly debated about the Stanford antibody studies and now this one. What I would add is that a decrease in children might be suggestive, but if it is not statistically significant you can't make that claim in a journal article if you want to get it through peer review. Even weasel-y phrasing like 'the trend in the data suggests....' usually does not fly any more. One problem is that reviewers are often not the best judge of biostatistics and this is a problem in the biomedical research field overall. I have no idea whether their use of statistics was appropriate.

Given the three recent studies that have shown that the majority of spread is driven by a minority of the infected, I would also question how relevant the median or average values are to transmission. This is something that needs boots-on-the-ground contact tracing to decipher. Especially in places like Stockholm where elementary schools have been open and the virus is at a relatively high level.

Amazing. I guess we can cross Moderna off from the likely vaccine list.
View: https://twitter.com/HelenBranswell/status/1265642625404743681
 
Last edited:
Given the three recent studies that have shown that the majority of spread is driven by a minority of the infected, I would also question how relevant the median or average values are to transmission.

That is a very good point!

I read the Drosten Paper and the statistical part is fair. Of course you can do fancier stuff but for a first statistical analysis it is appropriate. They even find a difference between the subgroups kindergarten and mature.

But you are right. I do not like comparing the medians. Imagine two rooms. In the first are two persons each has 1000 "units" of the virus. In the second room one person has 1 "unit" and the other 1000000 "units". Then both have the same log_10 average (or median). But I would clearly prefer the first room.
So one should probably look at the extremes, like comparing higher quantiles.
 
How do you get that from the article that you linked?

DJ didn't get past the headline.

The trades, which led to about $80 million in profits, were prescheduled through a legal program that allows company insiders to buy and sell shares at a later date.

Meaning, they were going to happen.

If Moderna’s early-stage vaccine can one day prevent coronavirus infection and the company’s best days lay ahead, why are insiders selling?

Because 1) the trades were pre-scheduled so non-insiders knew what was happening and 2) so the executives could get paid according to their hiring package.

The majority of the sales were at prices below Moderna’s current value, suggesting the executives were more concerned with liquidity than profit, Seyhun said. And each transaction was done through a 10b5-1 plan, meaning the executives weren’t trading on inside information.

This article and the response are classically Fake News.
 
DJ didn't get past the headline.

The trades, which led to about $80 million in profits, were prescheduled through a legal program that allows company insiders to buy and sell shares at a later date.

Meaning, they were going to happen.

If Moderna’s early-stage vaccine can one day prevent coronavirus infection and the company’s best days lay ahead, why are insiders selling?

Because 1) the trades were pre-scheduled so non-insiders knew what was happening and 2) so the executives could get paid according to their hiring package.

The majority of the sales were at prices below Moderna’s current value, suggesting the executives were more concerned with liquidity than profit, Seyhun said. And each transaction was done through a 10b5-1 plan, meaning the executives weren’t trading on inside information.

This article and the response are classically Fake News.
Not necessarily fake news although Jim Cramer is not credible in my book. He was shilling the last Bull market right into the collapse.
The shares are scheduled by each seller. They can decide when to release and they also have some control to release corporate information to the public. Their stock has gone up considerably this year but is down from $80/share to $51 this week on that story.
The devil is in who highlighted the information and who is now buying lots of Moderna. If their product fails, Cramer could actually be right for once.
 
“There’s always that other possibility — that these guys really know this whole thing is bogus and they’re selling while the selling is good,” Lys said. “But you can’t tell from the data which one it is, and they certainly have plausible deniability.”

If I were the Baltimore Orioles, I would not bet on my chances of winning the world series either.

From a different article.

"In the 45-person Moderna study, four participants experienced what are known as “Grade 3” adverse events — side effects that are severe or medically significant but not immediately life-threatening. Neither the company nor the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which is running the trial, have previously detailed the nature of those incidents, but Moderna did disclose that three, likely including Haydon, received the highest dose of the vaccine that was tested, and had reactions that involved their whole bodies. A fourth received a lower dose and had a rash at the injection site."

Their technique has the biggest regulatory hurdles as it has never been approved for use in humans by anyone. Lots of red flags. Their current 0% success rate foremost among them.
 
“There’s always that other possibility — that these guys really know this whole thing is bogus and they’re selling while the selling is good,” Lys said. “But you can’t tell from the data which one it is, and they certainly have plausible deniability.”

If I were the Baltimore Orioles, I would not bet on my chances of winning the world series either.

From a different article.

"In the 45-person Moderna study, four participants experienced what are known as “Grade 3” adverse events — side effects that are severe or medically significant but not immediately life-threatening. Neither the company nor the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which is running the trial, have previously detailed the nature of those incidents, but Moderna did disclose that three, likely including Haydon, received the highest dose of the vaccine that was tested, and had reactions that involved their whole bodies. A fourth received a lower dose and had a rash at the injection site."

Their technique has the biggest regulatory hurdles as it has never been approved for use in humans by anyone. Lots of red flags. Their current 0% success rate foremost among them.

There's a graphic in the article you posted showing the predetermined timing of stock liquidation. The selling started well before COVID 19.

Maybe read your articles before you post them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GVFTA
Agreed. There will be options that are better than what we have now for mild and serious cases. And Regeneron is basically following the trail they blazed for Ebola therapeutics. They know what they are doing.

Exactly. The reality is we got lucky that Remdesivir (which had been sitting on a self because it didn't work for what it was developed for) actually works for coronavirus. I also think Remdesivir working (even if only just helping getting people to recover faster) has helped to buy time for other treatments to be made. (I'm also of the opinion that the shut down orders in general were to buy time for treatments to become available. Italy, Madrid, NYC obviously had to shut down due to overwhelming hospitals.) I also have confidence in Regereron to develop a good treatment.
 
The devil is in the details and statistics have been hotly debated about the Stanford antibody studies and now this one. What I would add is that a decrease in children might be suggestive, but if it is not statistically significant you can't make that claim in a journal article if you want to get it through peer review. Even weasel-y phrasing like 'the trend in the data suggests....' usually does not fly any more. One problem is that reviewers are often not the best judge of biostatistics and this is a problem in the biomedical research field overall. I have no idea whether their use of statistics was appropriate.

Of course. Every scientist wants to publish a study that definitely shows an effect, or definitely rules out an effect. The data here--the relatively small number of positives for the youngest groups, plus the lack of a normal distribution--make that very difficult. But I think Drosten should have emphasized this, rather than implying that his study clearly indicated that children have viral loads as high as older people. You can say, the study provides no evidence that children have lower loads, rather than, we should assume that children are just as infectious as adults.

As I noted earlier, the analysis using the second classification, actually found the highest mean viral load for the grade school students. Drosten never points this out, though for anyone looking at the means, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Why is that one group so high? There were only 16 subjects, 15 - more than 100 times fewer than for the older age groups. This is the kind of outlier you can get when you work with small sample sizes.

You could lump the first two groups together. That would provide a larger sample size and a smaller standard error. Just doing a rough calculation, I find a mean of 4.74. a SE of 0.16, and 95% confidence limits of 4.42 - 5.06. The upper bound of that is lower than the lower bound of all the other groups except 5, 8 and 10, with 10 being ruled out because of small sample size. And if you lumped all eight of the older groups together (just do 7, the oldest group is way too small, and the numbers it does provide indicate it's about the same as the other seven, anyway), you get a mean of 5.26, a SE of around 0.03, and 95% limits of 5.20-5.32.

Statisticians would probably say that's an arbitrary comparison, but 20 is about the age when humans reach physical and mental maturity. i think it's entirely reasonable to compare people below that age with people above. The ten year groups Drosten uses are arbitrary, too. Suppose we use five 20 year groups instead?

1-20: 4.42 - 5.06
21-40: 5.12 - 5.34
41-60: 5.02 - 5.24
61-80: 5.10 - 5.34
81-100: 5.12 - 5.52

Complete separation between 1-20 and all the other 20 year groups except 41-60, which is really close,.

Given the three recent studies that have shown that the majority of spread is driven by a minority of the infected, I would also question how relevant the median or average values are to transmission. This is something that needs boots-on-the-ground contact tracing to decipher. Especially in places like Stockholm where elementary schools have been open and the virus is at a relatively high level.

Yes, that's an important point. But probably there are multiple factors involved. Just a high viral load could be due to several. factors, including time in relation to symptoms, and infectivity could be due to other factors than high viral load. We really don't know if certain individuals are super-spreaders because of intrinsic characteristics, or if it was just a chance event.

CDC now estimating significantly lower fatality ratio than previously: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

0.05% for under 50 - much closer to the flu

Except that every major country that has estimated prevalence of infection has come up with a far higher estimate (than the 0.26% cited by CDC):

Spain: 1.1%
France: 0.70%
Netherlands: 0.67%
Belgium: 0.65%
Sweden: 0.47%
Denmark: 0.38%

Wrt the flu, in 2017-18, one of the worst recent seasons, the U.S. mortality rates were:

18-49: 0.02%
50-65: 0.05%
65+: 0.86%

The under 50 rates of the flu and C19 do seem to be roughly comparable, though different studies do vary widely. And of course, C19 is more contagious, so mortality rates per overall population are higher. Over 50, though, there is a huge gap. The studies in the Netherlands, France and Spain indicate rates of 0.3-0.5% for 50-70. And keep in mind that we still don't know what the long-term consequences may be for many survivors of C19.
 
Last edited:
Here are a few things that I can't digest..not able to wrap my head around..
school guidelines that have children bringing their own ball to school in some attempt to self recreat e..? Kids eating lunch in the classroom?
Non..guidance about face covering on airplanes..passengers bringing their own..?
but I think what has really rocked my day..and I will set a reference..we planned to watch the space launch..it was semi democratically decided that Kentucky Fried chicken was the company sponsored meal..as I finished my 700+ grams of fat..weather caused cancellation..I was bummed out on multiple levels..
I watched Newshour on PBS..as the story changed the displayed a survey result..
@31% of Americans who they surveyed would NOT take a vaccine if one was available.
And that as we reached @100,000 dead..
It's been said by many..David Bowie's version I took in..
When you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel..sometimes it's a train..
 
@31% of Americans who they surveyed would NOT take a vaccine if one was available.

Actually, it may be worse:

In reply to the question, “If a vaccine against the coronavirus becomes available, do you plan to get vaccinated?”, 49% of respondents said yes and 20% said no. About one-third said they weren’t sure.{/quote]

If 'not sure" was a choice, I imagine that would be the one picked by people who are concerned about a rushed vaccine not sufficiently vetted for side effects.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/27/americans-covid-19-vaccine-poll

So even a vaccine might not be enough to establish herd immunity. On the positive side, those of us who do want to get vaccinated won't have to wait as long.

Imagine if the virus suddenly became super-lethal, like MERS. Many of the non-vaccinated people would be eliminated. Darwin scores again.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jmdirt
"Would not take a vaccine", as in "ever", or as in "right away"? I think I would first want to see if it is really causing no bad side-effects. This fast-tracked approach is understandable, but it does mean that there is less data on secondary effects. If you're in a group (such as I am) where the covid-mortality is very low, I think I would wait a few months (and my children definitely) to see whether anything out of the ordinary surfaces.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jmdirt and GVFTA
I don't think waiting a few months is going to accomplish anything. Such short-term impact is likely to have been detected in the trials, and side effects could show up years down the line anyway. And regardless, you are not likely to be among the first to receive a vaccine. Waiting would do little more than increase the risk for vulnerable people who can't get vaccinated.
 
Last edited: