Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Unbelievable:

The owner of a North Carolina short track is opening his track’s gates to fans on Saturday. But “corona-infested” media members are barred from attending unless they buy a ticket like a regular fan.

311 Speedway in Stokes County is allowing fans in defiance of an executive order by Gov. Roy Cooper barring large events with more than 25 people.
That’s a limit 100 times fewer than the 2,500 capacity of the track’s grandstands, but track owner Mike Fulp is going ahead with his plans to let people watch races in-person on Saturday night.

He does not want media members covering those races, however. Fulp posted to Facebook that the “corona-infested media” was not allowed to be at the track unless they bought a ticket. Why? Because “we don’t have people here with the corona.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/north-caro...ont-allow-coronainfested-media-224138647.html

jmdirt said:
This came up on Flipboard this morning, I don't know anything about Elemental , but this is interesting:

https://elemental.medium.com/corona...isease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2

Maybe one of the people more in the know can evaluate this for us?
Yes, there's a lot of evidence that SARS-CoV-2 can attack the circulatory system, including the heart as well as blood vessels. The fact that it can use furin is also extremely significant, and one of the major ways it's distinguished from (and potentially more deadly than) the original SARS.

That said, i don't think vascular effects explain everything. People seem to die from the virus in a variety of ways, but a lot of deaths occur from respiratory failure. Vascular effects can contribute to that, but so do the effects directly on the lungs.

More on population density. When I made a scatter plot of density vs. case rate, there were six states that were outliers, that seemed to form their own line at a higher rate of cases per population density than the rest. Four of these states—NY, IL, NE and SD—feature one city that contains more than 20% of the state’s entire population. That’s fairly uncommon. AFAIK, there are only three other states like this: Vermont (Burlington), Arizona (Phoenix) and Alaska (Anhcorage, which at 40% of the states’s population, ties NYC.) I’m only considering incorporated cities here, not metropolitan areas.

When I removed these seven states from the others, the correlation between population density and case rate now jumped to 0.87. This tells us that more homogeneously populated states have a more uniform case rate. But even more, it suggests that there is a power law relationship between density and case rate. Let me explain.

Most spread of the virus is thought to result from coughing, breathing or otherwise discharging into the air viral particles by infected people. When this happens, a three-dimensional cloud forms. Like all three-dimensional objects or distributions, its volume is related to a linear dimension, like radius in the case of a sphere, by a cube function. So as the viral cloud expands and spreads into the air, the concentration of virus in it should fall steeply with distance from the infected person.

In other words, as you approach an infected person, your risk of becoming infected does not increase linearly, but by a power function. This suggests to me that population density might be related to infection rate by a power law, and that’s generally consistent with the finding that states with a highly densely populated city tend to have higher case rates. Suppose there are two states with equal land areas and populations, but one has a completely homogeneous population, while the other has 50% of its population concentrated in a relatively small city. Outside that city, the second state will have half the population density of the first state, and somewhat less than half the rate of cases. But inside the city, the case rate will jump dramatically, because the density is far more than twice the density throughout the other state (e.g., the population density in Manhattan is more than 200 times the density of NY state overall). This will more than outweigh the lower case rate outside. This is an extreme example, but it’s what I think states like NY, in particular, face.

By the way, Manila is listed as the densest city in the world, at about 46,000 people per sq km. To put that in perspective, that is 4-5 people per 100 sq meters. In the U.S., the average size of a new home is about 250 sq meters. So the population density in Manila is more than twice that of a suburban family with 2-3 kids when they are locked down in their home (and that’s not even including the yard, which probably doubles or more the available space). Think about that, the next time you’re getting cabin fever.
 
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Masks are effective, if for no other reason than reducing the dose of exposure.


the main point about vaccines is that you are more protected by everybody taking a vaccine than your personal response to the vaccine. Has anybody gone back and tested whether they made antibodies to their myriad of vaccinations? Doubtful. Why is that? Because it is a secondary point compared to universal compliance. Lose that compliance and people who are vaccinated do need to worry. Saying there is no threat is just wrong. Unchained is correct on that point.
 
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"Preliminary research from the University of Edinburgh published May 21, 2020 suggests that face coverings cut the forward distance traveled by a person's exhale by more than 90% -- meaning how far your breath travels after it leaves your mouth or nose. "

I wonder when we it will be OK to buy N95 masks (when will the medical stockpile be restocked)?
 
I'm far from being an anti-vaccinationist. But I would not like to get a vaccination that seems hurried. I guess there's a reason that studies usually take years and it's not only money. We better wait half a year more before we use a vaccination that could do more damage than good. The mortality rate of this seems to be around 1% at most, not 10 oder 20%.
Well, I guess I'm not going to be among the first to get a vaccination anyway, but if I have to decide whether to get it, I will look a little closer: who made it under which circumstances and does the time of the trial phases seem reasonable to me.
+1
I'm on board with that. Here's some interesting interviews with Dr. Paul Offit, a top vaccine expert and co-inventor of the rotavirus vaccine:

View: https://youtu.be/ZxqQgdE3yn0



He clearly states that 2 yrs is about the appropriate time to develop a safe & effective vaccine. 12-18 months, he says, and some major steps would have to be skipped. Like he says, there's desperation for a vaccine because so many people are terrified by the virus that it's being rushed.

And with the WH code name of "Operation Warp Speed" (could just as well be called "Operation Rush Job") that should tell you how much pressure is being put on pharma to have something available by this fall...frightening!
 
Masks are effective, if for no other reason than reducing the dose of exposure.


the main point about vaccines is that you are more protected by everybody taking a vaccine than your personal response to the vaccine. Has anybody gone back and tested whether they made antibodies to their myriad of vaccinations? Doubtful. Why is that? Because it is a secondary point compared to universal compliance. Lose that compliance and people who are vaccinated do need to worry. Saying there is no threat is just wrong. Unchained is correct on that point.
The first three references in that article are much more speculative than they imply, and one of the main references they quote doesn’t really say what they imply it says. I’ll read the rest when I get chance, but that’s not a great start.
 
What are you disputing about this reference?

 
What are you disputing about this reference?

That is not one of the first three references. From the abstract, my first problem would be that presence of viral RNA is not proof of either presence of viable virus or indication of a load high enough to cause infection, but I’ve not read it.
 
You did say one of the main references, which is why I asked. We don't know the load that is required for a viable infection as the science article addresses at the end. I do think they put the wrong hamster reference, so that was a good catch by you. The follow-up showed that surgical mask material prevented non contact infections. The one they reference is the paper that presents the development and clinical relevance of animal model as far as I can tell without access to my institute subscription.

Your rna argument is a little thin. My point is that the dose will be decreased. Rna is a pretty good surrogate of that. Whether that is infective is unknown, but I don't think many would argue that lowering the inoculum wouldn't be effective at some level.
 
I meant one of the main references from the first three references, sorry if that wasn’t clear. As I said, I’ve not read the rest of the article but falling down on their first 3 references isn’t a good look.

It is only a good surrogate when it’s known that the virus is viable. For example, if the virus envelope requires larger droplets than those that can be airbourne, rna testing is not a good surrogate. All of the epidemiological data I’ve read commentary on suggests contact or non-contact surface transferral transmission are the main factors. I’ll wait to comment once I’ve read the paper to see if they cover the balance of risk between face touching increasing these more likely factors against the possibly smaller benefits of wearing a mask.

As to lowering the viral load, if it’s below the level of infection then lowering it is pretty irrelevant.


I’m not saying masks are bad or good, I’m just saying that from reading around it certainly doesn’t seem to Ben decided yet and it’s probably going to be quite specific to locations and usage if they are.
 
Dirt I have used N95 and KN95 masks w a half dollar sized valve device..I cannot distinguish any real difference between between valved and non valved.
I listened to a researcher talk about a possible Covid susceptibility ..@13% of worlds population considered obese and @34% of Americans under that category it was made clear that the data was strictly observational..but informally it looks like obesity could be a component of the overall outcome profile of U.S. deaths.
there are a few high profile doctors..like Katz as an example that have been talking about general fitness level,general overall calorie and content of the American diet as the contributors to poor US..health..that was pre pandemic and will probably be a virtually unchanged fact after effects of Covid 19 have subsided to whatever degree.
And it's rumored that beer will begin to be available in Mexico this Monday.
 
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I hope in the near future,w data available,the U.S. Government starts to post estimates of exposure. I have read that by the end of June using current modelling that @15% of the American population will have been exposed to the virus..
also not sure were the public - private partnerships start and end but the US population reliance on data mostly from John's Hopkins. looks odd..why is the data from federal agencies not the benchmark?
 
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The rest of the world may get some examples of virus spread and containment as military personnel are deployed nationwide w what looks to be a pre pandemic outfitting..face shields and uniforms that appear to be designed to ward off rocks,bottles and other similar sized debris but w little to no visual filtration for smoke and contaminated air..
there are other global examples of rioting and it will be interesting to see if Covid cases stay steady,rise or decrease in areas where rioting takes place on scale.
 
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the main point about vaccines is that you are more protected by everybody taking a vaccine than your personal response to the vaccine.

You can really say the same thing about masks, at least the common, homemade types. It isn't that they offer much protection from airborne virus as that they prevent you and others from making the virus airborne. Even if the material can block droplets in the air, they can still get around your mask, but when you breathe, the droplets you exhale go directly into the mask. Again and again, we see that the most important measures are not for the protection of the individual from the group, but for the protection of the group from the individual. Unfortunately, this is a difficult lesson for many individualistic Americans to grasp or accept.

All of the epidemiological data I’ve read commentary on suggests contact or non-contact surface transferral transmission are the main factors.

There are others that say just the opposite. i frankly have trouble seeing how there could be much spread through surfaces. If the droplets fall rather than staying in the air, most will fall to the ground or a floor, which people of course ordinarily don't touch with their hands. The objects that people most commonly touch, such as doorknobs and handrails, offer relatively little surface, so i would think the virus concentration would usually not be that high on them.

if the virus envelope requires larger droplets than those that can be airbourne, rna testing is not a good surrogate.

If that's the case, there won't be any RNA to measure in the air. Unless you're thinking infected people breathe out a lot of degraded virus.

Some encouraging preliminary data from Scandinavia indicate re-opening schools did not lead to a surge in cases:

Following a one-month lockdown, Denmark allowed children between two to 12 years back in day cares and schools on April 15. Based on five weeks’ worth of data, health authorities are now for the first time saying the move did not make the virus proliferate.

“You cannot see any negative effects from the reopening of schools,” Peter Andersen, doctor of infectious disease epidemiology and prevention at the Danish Serum Institute said on Thursday told Reuters.

In Finland, a top official announced similar findings on Wednesday, saying nothing so far suggested the coronavirus had spread faster since schools reopened in mid-May.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-not-worsen-outbreak-data-shows-idUSKBN2341N7
 
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You can really say the same thing about masks, at least the common, homemade types. It isn't that they offer much protection from airborne virus as that they prevent you and others from making the virus airborne. Even if the material can block droplets in the air, they can still get around your mask, but when you breathe, the droplets you exhale go directly into the mask. Again and again, we see that the most important measures are not for the protection of the individual from the group, but for the protection of the group from the individual. Unfortunately, this is a difficult lesson for many individualistic Americans to grasp or accept.
Agree with all this. The best protection for people with makeshift masks are other people wearing masks too. Two imperfect barriers are probably better than none, so I think universal compliance with masks would help a lot, especially considering how relatively painless this is compared to many of the alternatives. I am sure there are people who are concerned with individual freedoms, but I think the mask reticence is more to do with the other obvious reason as profoundly depressing as that is to contemplate.
 
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Agree with all this. The best protection for people with makeshift masks are other people wearing masks too. Two imperfect barriers are probably better than none, so I think universal compliance with masks would help a lot, especially considering how relatively painless this is compared to many of the alternatives. I am sure there are people who are concerned with individual freedoms, but I think the mask reticence is more to do with the other obvious reason as profoundly depressing as that is to contemplate.
Your implication is correct IMO.

Several of the people who I have seen (on TV) refusing to wearing a mask spout: "its a free country". OK, for the sake of argument let's go with that. We have laws to protect people, for example, speed limits. When you get pulled over for doing 75 in a school zone you get a ticket even in a free country.

All that people are asking is that we respect our fellow person, and trap some snot drops in a mask. Its just a simple thing.
 
Your implication is correct IMO.

Several of the people who I have seen (on TV) refusing to wearing a mask spout: "its a free country". OK, for the sake of argument let's go with that. We have laws to protect people, for example, speed limits. When you get pulled over for doing 75 in a school zone you get a ticket even in a free country.

All that people are asking is that we respect our fellow person, and trap some snot drops in a mask. Its just a simple thing.

Those refusing to wear a mask are the same ones who get mad at people not doing things their way. There's a gun store in TX saying that masks aren't allowed and he'll shoot anyone wearing one.
 
"Preliminary research from the University of Edinburgh published May 21, 2020 suggests that face coverings cut the forward distance traveled by a person's exhale by more than 90% -- meaning how far your breath travels after it leaves your mouth or nose. "

I wonder when we it will be OK to buy N95 masks (when will the medical stockpile be restocked)?
I searched "N95 Mask" and there are many places on the www to buy them. I would like an official "all clear" from the medical community that they have enough stockpile before I buy any. My job is work from home for at least 60 more days, but at some point after July/Aug I assume I will be going back to the mother ship (at least some days). The rumor is that surgical masks will be supplied by the company, but do I want more protection? I guess that I will have more info by then to help me decide.
 
Did the sites specify a delivery date? As labs are starting to stock up on PPE in preparation of opening, I've heard that everything is being backordered to infinity (hyperbole). I don't think that typically includes the higher end masks, but I would be somewhat surprised to see anybody with a stash ready to ship. A couple ER docs i follow on Twitter have mentioned that they are using their masks for 3 shifts.
 
On the 3rd travel between regions will be allowed in Italy. I think the centralistic one size fits all approach is still wrong. If a single Region (the Lombardia region) constantly has at least 50% of all daily new positives allowing them to travel around like people from regions with really good numbers sounds reckless to me. I hope that they will still change the rules a bit, otherwise the other regions will have to use the right to have more restrictive measures and enforce a travel ban from the Lombardia region for the next 2-3 weeks, until their numbers improve.
 
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On the 3rd travel between regions will be allowed in Italy. I think the centralistic one size fits all approach is still wrong. If a single Region (the Lombardia region) constantly has at least 50% of all daily new positives allowing them to travel around like people from regions with really good numbers sounds reckless to me. I hope that they will still change the rules a bit, otherwise the other regions will have to use the right to have more restrictive measures and enforce a travel ban from the Lombardia region for the next 2-3 weeks, until their numbers improve.

I happen to agree with the idea that one size fits all doesn't work as some areas of each country are affected differently. Also some areas with low numbers in some places don't really want people from other areas coming in due to fear of them bringing the virus with them. Spain has allowed for different areas to open at different rates due to 3 regions being harder hit than the rest of the country and I think Italy would be better off with that approach.
 
Did the sites specify a delivery date? As labs are starting to stock up on PPE in preparation of opening, I've heard that everything is being backordered to infinity (hyperbole). I don't think that typically includes the higher end masks, but I would be somewhat surprised to see anybody with a stash ready to ship. A couple ER docs i follow on Twitter have mentioned that they are using their masks for 3 shifts.
I din't look for a delivery date, but one site said ships in 3-5 days.
 
This head of IC, has said some strange things on RAI (Italy):

Basically, he says that the virus has changed, that the viral loads in new patients are much lower than before. But, it's unclear why he claims that and what proof he has.
 
There are others that say just the opposite. i frankly have trouble seeing how there could be much spread through surfaces. If the droplets fall rather than staying in the air, most will fall to the ground or a floor, which people of course ordinarily don't touch with their hands. The objects that people most commonly touch, such as doorknobs and handrails, offer relatively little surface, so i would think the virus concentration would usually not be that high on them.

Beryl goes to the shop to buy beans. Before she picks up a can, she absent-mindedly wipes her lips/face and then picks the can up. As she goes to put it in her basket she notices it has been dented, so she puts it back, just like she normally would and takes a different one. After paying, her basket is returned but the staff forget to clean the handle. Enter Steve and Mary. Steve picks up Beryl's basket and Mary picks up the same tin of beans. Repeat ad nauseum in many different situations.

It's a trite example and the places I've read that were noted as hotspots in South Korea were places like gyms and call centres, where people are together for extended periods and sharing equipment, but it makes the point. It's not about droplets from peoples breath landing on things.


If that's the case, there won't be any RNA to measure in the air. Unless you're thinking infected people breathe out a lot of degraded virus.

Yes.