correct way to pedal

[avanti]

Good to see the UCI step in and limit the bikes at World Track Champs. All parts must be available for anyone to purchase.
...................

The problem is interpreting this rule - anyone can buy a $100,000 track bike if they have the money. That why I was amazed to read about a new bike by Specialized that a pro team is using yet will not be available for anyone else untill the fall.

 

[coapman]

Found that statement funny as Coach Fergie supporting anegdotal evidence of Alex performance. How could you do that at 100 rpm, please plain English.

Why not, when you have perfected a technique, your brain has stored the necessary muscle action and regardless of what technique you are using, you only have think a different one that has also been perfected and your muscles will instantly set to work. Frank appears to believe that muscles have to be retrained every time you decide to change pedalling styles.

 

[CoachFergie]

Oh yes there is evidience. Anquetil's pedalling technique did in fact cost him winning that eight tour or rather his lack of opportunity to use his pedalling. Knowing that Anquetil's secret weapon lay in his TT pedalling technique, the organizers reduced TT's in the Tour. In other stages Anquetil technique does not give a significant advantages, it needs high gear pedalling if it is to gain most benefit from the increased power it makes available, so that rules out mountainy stages. On the flat stages there is not much sense in using max power output if you have a group of twenty riders sitting on your wheel and it is not suitable for sprinting.

More speculation. Although interesting you say he had more "power" but shy away from using a power meter to prove the "obvious" benefits of this technique.

 

[FrankDay]

Frank appears to believe that muscles have to be retrained every time you decide to change pedalling styles.

I don't appear to believe that, I do believe that. Different pedaling styles use the different muscles differently. Whatever the new style is one cannot achieve its full potential until the "undertrained" muscles for that style are brought up to speed for the new technique.

 

[CoachFergie]

Why not, when you have perfected a technique, your brain has stored the necessary muscle action and regardless of what technique you are using, you only have think a different one that has also been perfected and your muscles will instantly set to work. Frank appears to believe that muscles have to be retrained every time you decide to change pedalling styles.

I thought Frank appears to believe that pedalling is a spinal reflex, a response at the PNS level to some external stimuli. I guess Frank believes that muddy waters are the best environment for the Snake Oil Salesman to ply his trade.

Ha ha good to see cowardly Oldborn can't spell anecdote let alone understand the concept.

 

[oldborn]

Why not, when you have perfected a technique, your brain has stored the necessary muscle action and regardless of what technique you are using, you only have think a different one that has also been perfected and your muscles will instantly set to work. Frank appears to believe that muscles have to be retrained every time you decide to change pedalling styles.

Dude i am not dogmatic guy at all, but!
Someone says that cycling is most non technique endurance sport on the world, just look at the swimming, rowing, running etc, lots of neuromuscular works has to be done from child age to perfect technique.
I never heard or see any cyclist who is working on technique from child age, of course we can recognize advance cyclist by his hips, knees and all legs work from a mile, it looks natural.

So the reason why we are doing theese workouts from early age is to make a most automatic technique without thinking about it when we are under stress or fatigue, i just can not imagine athlete thinking of his pedaling 5 or 6 hours, or me thinking of stroke in 1,5km swimming race, or stride techique in marathon race, i just thinking how to stay focused and alive .

Maybe the reason lie in fact that those activites requires more joint, muscles, body parts and complex work then cycling, which is really just two legs work.

I am all open for new ideas and training principles, but i questions these.

When we look on train swimmers or 5km runner and non trained ones there is a big difference in style, technique and efficiency between them wright?

Maybe i am wrong and all this would be a history, and cycling will be sport in which technique gonna play huge role, as i said before i am all open.

P.S. I am tired of English.

 

[FrankDay]

I thought Frank appears to believe that pedalling is a spinal reflex,

Ugh, you don't? If it is not a spinal reflex, then it must be under conscious control, unless you have another mechanism you would like to propose. While conscious control can over come the spinal reflex part of the stroke I would submit that most never think about the pedaling action. Therefore, I submit, it is mostly under spinal reflex control, similar to walking and running. But, I look forward to you correcting me and telling me what is really going on.

I might add, it is a learned spinal reflex (just like running and walking). Therefore, any particular coordination can be relearned to a different coordination if one cares to do so and put in enough time to do so and has the proper stimulus to effect the change.

 

[coapman]

More speculation. Although interesting you say he had more "power" but shy away from using a power meter to prove the "obvious" benefits of this technique.

It's time to draw this to a conclusion. More "power" ? Take this for example. While in the seated racing drops position with back wheel locked, using Anquetil's GM muscles/ankle technique it's possible to apply almost equipment breaking fully tangential force to the crank around the 1 o'c position and that's only the upper portion of the stroke. If you try this around 3 o'c, using the natural thigh muscles/knee technique, you will lift yourself out of the saddle with only a fraction of that 1 o'c force applied. When this new PM becomes available it will supply the proof.

 

[FrankDay]

Dude i am not dogmatic guy at all, but!
Someone says that cycling is most non technique endurance sport on the world, just look at the swimming, rowing, running etc, lots of neuromuscular works has to be done from child age to perfect technique.…
Maybe i am wrong and all this would be a history, and cycling will be sport in which technique gonna play huge role, as i said before i am all open.

The problem that I see in cycling is differences in technique are not obvious to the observer because the feet are fixed to the pedals and so they can only move in a circular direction. The forces the rider exerts on the pedals, the result of different techniques, are not obvious to the observer because the movement of the feet or legs doesn't change regardless of what the rider does. So, Neal's feet move the same as mine and as yours yet we may all use different techniques even though some may look smoother for some reason compared to others. So, when compared to runners, because we all pretty much look the same, it is easy to say technique doesn't matter when it very well might and, in fact, probably does, because otherwise cycling would be the only sport in the world where technique didn't matter. The only two questions in my mind are: What is the best technique? And, How does the cyclist best achieve this best technique?

 

[CoachFergie]

Ugh, you don't?

No motor cortex and cerebellum.

While conscious control can over come the spinal reflex part of the stroke I would submit that most never think about the pedaling action.

You are confusing a reflex with automatic behaviour. One is a response to a stimulus and the other is a learned behaviour which in time becomes automatic.

Therefore, I submit, it is mostly under spinal reflex control, similar to walking and running. But, I look forward to you correcting me and telling me what is really going on.

Can you explain the stimulus that leads to the spinal reflexes for walking, running or pedalling.

I might add, it is a learned spinal reflex (just like running and walking). Therefore, any particular coordination can be relearned to a different coordination if one cares to do so and put in enough time to do so and has the proper stimulus to effect the change.

Care to produce evidence that a spinal reflex can be relearned.

I think one aspect of behavioural science believed that all behaviour was a series of reflexes and all one had to do to elicit any particular reflex was find the appropriate stimulus. Years of cognitive and neurophysiology research put those theories to rest.

What is of interest to me is that there are several studies that change the pedalling stimulus by the use of a crank that forces a greater emphasis on the upstroke and alter the pedalling behaviour and after a suitable training period fail to elicit an increase in any performance variable in cycling.

 

[CoachFergie]

It's time to draw this to a conclusion. More "power" ? Take this for example. While in the seated racing drops position with back wheel locked, using Anquetil's GM muscles/ankle technique it's possible to apply almost equipment breaking fully tangential force to the crank around the 1 o'c position and that's only the upper portion of the stroke. If you try this around 3 o'c, using the natural thigh muscles/knee technique, you will lift yourself out of the saddle with only a fraction of that 1 o'c force applied. When this new PM becomes available it will supply the proof.

Just tried this on the trainer with max resistance and biggest gear. Applying maximal power from either 1oclock or 3oclock forced me to lift out of the saddle either resting on the bars or sitting upright.

Any power meter will show if a pedalling technique more is effective stimulus. In the short term like using aerodynamic equipment (at a given speed aerobars reduce the wattage required to sustain that pace), equipment that claims to improve performance (elliptical rings do not decrease the power needed to sustain a given pace) or training method (short intensity intervals show an increase in power one can sustain after only two weeks of training while training with an independent crank after 5 weeks does not).

 

[CoachFergie]

The problem that I see in cycling is differences in technique are not obvious to the observer because the feet are fixed to the pedals and so they can only move in a circular direction. The forces the rider exerts on the pedals, the result of different techniques, are not obvious to the observer because the movement of the feet or legs doesn't change regardless of what the rider does. So, Neal's feet move the same as mine and as yours yet we may all use different techniques even though some may look smoother for some reason compared to others. So, when compared to runners, because we all pretty much look the same, it is easy to say technique doesn't matter when it very well might and, in fact, probably does, because otherwise cycling would be the only sport in the world where technique didn't matter. The only two questions in my mind are: What is the best technique? And, How does the cyclist best achieve this best technique?

Technique matters in cycling Frank, just not in the limited fashion you would like it to to benefit Gimmickcrank sales.

Now Noel has piqued my interest with his comment that Coyle 1991 showing that pedalling technique does matter and supported by Broker (chapter in High Tech Cycling) raises the question "how do we teach people to mash better".

 

[FrankDay]

Can you explain the stimulus that leads to the spinal reflexes for walking, running or pedalling.

Sure, it is a learned behavior that comes about from trial and error when we are young. We keep falling until we get it right when it comes to walking and running. The problem in cycling comes about because our CNS "learns" how to pedal a bike when we are young on platform pedals. Therefore we "learn" that in order to "best" pedal a bike we must keep some back pressure on the upstroke to keep contact with the pedal so we can rapidly apply max down force on the pedals when they come into the position for us to do so. When we are on platform pedals it is difficult, if not impossible, to apply any force at the top, bottom, or back of the stroke and maintain contact with the pedals. My contention is this is not necessarily the best pattern if one is actually attached to the pedals, which doesn't occur typically until one is an adult, after the earlier pattern is totally ingrained. So, if there is a better pattern, how does the adult unlearn the pattern ingrained as a child? The only way I know is multiple repetitions with appropriate feedback (trial and error) of the new pattern trying to be ingrained. Such change does not come quickly or easily.

 

[FrankDay]

Just tried this on the trainer with max resistance and biggest gear. Applying maximal power from either 1oclock or 3oclock forced me to lift out of the saddle either resting on the bars or sitting upright.

If you were lifting out of the saddle when the pedal was at 1 o'clock the forces applied were obviously not tangential to the pedal circle. That would suggest that you were not applying max power at that point, only, perhaps, max force (most of which was being wasted lifting you out of the saddle). Unless you are actually measuring pedal forces (which takes something more than a simple power meter) you don't really have a clue what you are really doing.

 

[CoachFergie]

If you were lifting out of the saddle when the pedal was at 1 o'clock the forces applied were obviously not tangential to the pedal circle. That would suggest that you were not applying max power at that point, only, perhaps, max force (most of which was being wasted lifting you out of the saddle). Unless you are actually measuring pedal forces (which takes something more than a simple power meter) you don't really have a clue what you are really doing.

That should have read neither 1oclock or 3oclock forced me to rise out of the saddle.

 

[CoachFergie]

Sure, it is a learned behavior that comes about from trial and error when we are young. We keep falling until we get it right when it comes to walking and running. The problem in cycling comes about because our CNS "learns" how to pedal a bike when we are young on platform pedals. Therefore we "learn" that in order to "best" pedal a bike we must keep some back pressure on the upstroke to keep contact with the pedal so we can rapidly apply max down force on the pedals when they come into the position for us to do so. When we are on platform pedals it is difficult, if not impossible, to apply any force at the top, bottom, or back of the stroke and maintain contact with the pedals. My contention is this is not necessarily the best pattern if one is actually attached to the pedals, which doesn't occur typically until one is an adult, after the earlier pattern is totally ingrained. So, if there is a better pattern, how does the adult unlearn the pattern ingrained as a child? The only way I know is multiple repetitions with appropriate feedback (trial and error) of the new pattern trying to be ingrained. Such change does not come quickly or easily.

None of those examples imply that pedalling, walking or running is a spinal reflex. Try again.

 

[FrankDay]

None of those examples imply that pedalling, walking or running is a spinal reflex. Try again.

I don't have to imply, they are, nothing above the cerebellum needed. Ask any doctor. You don't consciously think about actually moving the legs, you only have to think about where you are going and how fast.

 

[FrankDay]

That should have read neither 1oclock or 3oclock forced me to rise out of the saddle.

Nothing should cause you to rise out off of the saddle unless the net vertical force is more than the weight of the body. Such forces are possible but rarely happen in real cycling.

 

[CoachFergie]

Now what you appear to be referring to is a stereotypic motor response which is learned early in life. A reflex would imply that popping a kid on a bicycle and putting the feet on the pedals would be all the stimulus required for them to push the pedals. Having done this several times my experience is it takes a little more than that to get them to start pedalling.

Now you postulate that these stereotypes are hard to change but I would like to bring to your attention a study done in 2009 by Fernandez-Pena showed that cyclists training on an independent crank system were able to relearn how to pedal in a different fashion in just two weeks. This illustrates that while some stereotypic motor responses are hard to change pedalling isn't one of them.

What does interest me is that a several studies have covered changing the stereotypic motor response that is pedalling and this has not been the stimulus for any positive performance adaptations.

 

[CoachFergie]

Nothing should cause you to rise out off of the saddle unless the net vertical force is more than the weight of the body. Such forces are possible but rarely happen in real cycling.

Noel suggested that at 3oclock it would. My N=1 suggests this doesn't have to occur.

 

[FrankDay]

Noel suggested that at 3oclock it would. My N=1 suggests this doesn't have to occur.

Do you believe everything you read on the interweb? If you had done just the least little bit of thinking about this you would have known it didn't happen. But, alas, this is your way. Shame on you.

 

[FrankDay]

Now what you appear to be referring to is a stereotypic motor response which is learned early in life. A reflex would imply that popping a kid on a bicycle and putting the feet on the pedals would be all the stimulus required for them to push the pedals. Having done this several times my experience is it takes a little more than that to get them to start pedalling.

"Sterotypic motor response" phoey! Walking primarily occurs as part of a rhythmic reflexic action occurring at the spinal cord / cerebellar level. One thing leads to another. It is not quite the same as hitting the knee with the reflex hammer and watching the contraction, but it is properly described, IMHO, as a reflexic action, since there is no conscious effort involved. The higher (conscious) parts of the CNS are mostly involved in "initiating" or "modifying" actions. I know you think that what I learned in medical school has no bearing on what you have learned as a coach an in your undergraduate exercise physiology classes but, come on, get real. You are so intent on showing that I am wrong about everything I say that you look silly and it makes me look better (might want to think about that). Anyhow, here is a little something that might help you put a little bit of this complicated issue in perspective.

 

[CoachFergie]

Do you believe everything you read on the interweb? If you had done just the least little bit of thinking about this you would have known it didn't happen. But, alas, this is your way. Shame on you.

I think the last 2-3 years of pointing out the errors in your claims shows I don't believe everything I read on the Net.

 

[CoachFergie]

"Sterotypic motor response" phoey! Walking primarily occurs as part of a rhythmic reflexic action occurring at the spinal cord / cerebellar level.

Nice addition of the cerebellum there Frank. Where is that located again?

The higher (conscious) parts of the CNS are mostly involved in "initiating" or "modifying" actions. I know you think that what I learned in medical school has no bearing on what you have learned as a coach an in your undergraduate exercise physiology classes but, come on, get real. You are so intent on showing that I am wrong about everything I say that you look silly and it makes me look better (might want to think about that).

Nice meaningless rant Frank.

Anyhow, here is a little something that might help you put a little bit of this complicated issue in perspective.

Yeah supports my claim that motor behaviour apart from very basic reflexes is controlled the motor cortex and cerebellum. As evidenced by damage to the cerebellum leading to loss of motor control.

I have some pretty big doubts about the quality of the medical school you went to Frank.

 

[FrankDay]

I have some pretty big doubts about the quality of the medical school you went to Frank.

So be it. Is there anything you don't have severe doubts about with the exception of the power meter to … measure power.