Could a clean Cadel Evans get 2nd on uphill TT in Giro?

[Jonathan]

...there comes a time when you have to trust that there are guys that genuinely live up to what they say and in some cases have learned their lesson. Otherwise you just end up bitter and twisted like many who post on here who only live in darkness and see no light at the end of the tunnel.

That is just not true. Having a reality-based view on cycling does not imply becoming twisted or bitter. It just implies acknowledging what has been going on for a long time and transcends any single rider.

Your arguments that Evans and Basso are clean are just not convincing. At most, I'll believe that Basso is, vaguely, attempting to be clean; his twisted lies about Fuentes earlier made it clear that he was willing play the game in any way that allowed him to re-enter the sport at the highest level.

Don't fall back on an argument that any amount of fact-checking will easily debunk: those who disagree with you are not twisted souls. You're falling back on an extremely silly emotional plea that can only be meant to cover up a complete failure of rational arguments. It makes no sense in any other way.

 

[blackcat]

its is an uncritical belief in a mythology. Truth v fiction. I know which I prefer.

The irony is, the riding would be more entertaining, without the gear, without 30 riders reaching the bottom of the final ascent on the Queen stage together. Yes there was doping in Lemond's era, but as Liggett would say, the "heads of state" would detach themselves well before the final ascent on the Queen stage, and it would be truly mano a mano.

And we would not know the difference between the speed of the climbing. It would all be relative. Mano a mano. Now it is, 20 a mano v 20 a mano. The speed is higher. But it is still relative, but there are more.

 

[Roninho]

At the end of the day, where will this end. Under the forum rules no one is innocent. I for one believe that Cadel rides clean and I also believe Basso is too. Call me gullible but there comes a time when you have to trust that there are guys that genuinely live up to what they say and in some cases have learned their lesson. Otherwise you just end up bitter and twisted like many who post on here who only live in darkness and see no light at the end of the tunnel.

It's not that i am bitter, i enjoyed Evans, basso's and others performances this week, it has been a very enjoyable giro. However in the last 5+ years there have been so many riders caught doping including a lot that i didn't expect that it makes me 'cautious' to say a rider is clean. Call me bitter, but saying evans is clean because he looks to be suffering is just silly.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Mancebo always looked like he was suffering - we all know how clean he was.

 

[Von Mises]

That is just not true. Having a reality-based view on cycling does not imply becoming twisted or bitter. It just implies acknowledging what has been going on for a long time and transcends any single rider.

Your arguments that Evans and Basso are clean are just not convincing. At most, I'll believe that Basso is, vaguely, attempting to be clean; his twisted lies about Fuentes earlier made it clear that he was willing play the game in any way that allowed him to re-enter the sport at the highest level.

Don't fall back on an argument that any amount of fact-checking will easily debunk: those who disagree with you are not twisted souls. You're falling back on an extremely silly emotional plea that can only be meant to cover up a complete failure of rational arguments. It makes no sense in any other way.

The thing is that we do not know is the view you are talking about reality-based. We just do not know.

I agree that that arguments like "Evans is suffering=he is clean" is rubbish. But rubbish are also arguments like „Basso is smiling=doper“, „breathing through nose=doper“. „They are all doped crowd“ makes also and quite often stupid and selective arguments.

 

[Jonathan]

The thing is that we do not know is the view you are talking about reality-based. We just do not know.

I agree that that arguments like "Evans is suffering=he is clean" is rubbish. But rubbish are also arguments like „Basso is smiling=doper“, „breathing through nose=doper“. „They are all doped crowd“ makes also and quite often stupid and selective arguments.

The reality is that many investigations and testimonies from within cycling have strongly argued that there is a decades-old culture of doping. The EPO use during the nineties has been established and in the past decade, we've seen the unmasking of large doping networks. The anecdotal evidence is also significant, especially in particular cases. Independent sources have pointed in the same direction.

The evidence that Evans isn't part of all that is weak or nonexistent. You cannot position "Basso is smiling" against "Evans is suffering", because it's ignoring the other evidence. We have many reasons to believe that doping is still prevalent - it is not a conclusion built from scratch starting with Basso's facial expression. Evans, however, doesn't seem to have more going for him than wishful interpretations from his fans.

Note that I am not advocating that Basso or Evans should be suspended - obviously they have not been found formally guilty at this moment and their results should be treated as if they were clean. However, from the viewpoint of someone trying to get an objective in-depth view of what goes on in cycling, it is probable that both men are doping in some way.

 

[Tom T.]

I don't know who's doping and who isn't, but the fact that yesterday's times were significantly slower than 2008 gives me some hope.

Same for the Zoncolan, which was much slower than the last time they went up.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Note that I am not advocating that Basso or Evans should be suspended - obviously they have not been found formally guilty at this moment and their results should be treated as if they were clean. However, from the viewpoint of someone trying to get an objective in-depth view of what goes on in cycling, it is probable that both men are doping in some way.

Well said.

A lot of people seem unable to get their heads around this perspective.

 

[131313]

I don't know who's doping and who isn't, but the fact that yesterday's times were significantly slower than 2008 gives me some hope.

Same for the Zoncolan, which was much slower than the last time they went up.

I'd actually agree. I posted this on the other thread, and while there's definitely some speculation with the numbers, I used a 'slowest case scenario'. The TT times really don't seem unbelievable to me.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=7589&page=6

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I'd actually agree. I posted this on the other thread, and while there's definitely some speculation with the numbers, I used a 'slowest case scenario'. The TT times really don't seem unbelievable to me.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=7589&page=6

That is more likely to mean the better stuff available last year was no longer viable this year due to new tests, biopassport, etc.

That seems to be the cycle...

1) Riders use something new and performances start going up
2) use of the something new gets more and more prevalent.
3) new tests are developed and finally put into place
4) small dip in performance
5) goto #1

Per this cycle, something new and exciting might be rolling out by July (I can smell the aroma from Ferrari's lab from here, across the ocean), and Giro TT times will be back up next year because new tests will probably not yet be developed.

 

[Tom T.]

I don't seem to ever remember seeing one to two minute dips in performance on the same climbs over the span of a few years. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If anybody wants to believe that the technique on the bike and the strenuous effort put in by Evans is a sign that he's clean, then I urge you to rewatch the end of the 2008 Tour stage to Prato Nervoso. The one where Bernhard Kohl collapses at the end from exhaustion. He was up to his eyeballs, and he was still at his absolute limit.

 

[Frosty]

If anybody wants to believe that the technique on the bike and the strenuous effort put in by Evans is a sign that he's clean, then I urge you to rewatch the end of the 2008 Tour stage to Prato Nervoso. The one where Bernhard Kohl collapses at the end from exhaustion. He was up to his eyeballs, and he was still at his absolute limit.

Yeah, i remember that but i think it was the alpe d'huez stage?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You could well be right. It was definitely one of the two. I thought it was before the descent finish to Jausiers, but if it was Alpe d'Huez I acknowledge my mistake and accept the correction.

 

[shanspan]

If anybody wants to believe that the technique on the bike and the strenuous effort put in by Evans is a sign that he's clean, then I urge you to rewatch the end of the 2008 Tour stage to Prato Nervoso. The one where Bernhard Kohl collapses at the end from exhaustion. He was up to his eyeballs, and he was still at his absolute limit.

Why pull apart an argument made by another poster, pick the least rational point they made, and then make an equally, or even less plausible rebuttal.

You are talking about rags to riches Bernard Kohl.

Seems many of us think out loud on a recurring perpetual basis.

I am trying to understand that truth may be perspective. For some this seems more relevant than others.

If you have an argument to make, make it worth our time to read it.

 

[DJ Sprtsch]

New thread - new username - all the same

 

[luckyboy]

I can't say I think he's clean tbh.

 

[issoisso]

I continue to be amazed that anyone can be so completely removed from all rational logic to the point of believing that how much a guy suffers has anything to do with whether or not he's on drugs.

As insanity goes, it's right up there with "He doesn't dope because he's a nice guy" and "He doesn't dope because he has bad days sometimes"

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why pull apart an argument made by another poster, pick the least rational point they made, and then make an equally, or even less plausible rebuttal.

You are talking about rags to riches Bernard Kohl.

Seems many of us think out loud on a recurring perpetual basis.

I am trying to understand that truth may be perspective. For some this seems more relevant than others.

If you have an argument to make, make it worth our time to read it.

What? The point is, somebody used a very poor case. With recourse to the rest of Evans' history and other factors, then you can make a case that the two are comparable. But when 'suffering' is taken IN ISOLATION as a potential indicator, then that deserves to be pulled apart, and I picked an extreme example of that (using Kohl as somebody we all knew was up to his eyeballs long before he actually popped) to demonstrate how ridiculous that part of the argument is.

Just the same as I would use Isidro Nozal or the still-popular-in-the-péloton Alejandro Valverde as evidence against the "he's a nice guy, he wouldn't dope" argument if that was peddled.

I didn't attempt to make a point-by-point rebuttal because sometimes the points are good. But using 'suffering' as an indicator of innocence is romanticised and sentimental at best, and putting your head in the sand at worst. It may well be that Evans is clean, and the rest of the points may be salient, but that doesn't excuse using an argument with a huge hole in the middle of it.

 

[Jonathan]

As insanity goes, it's right up there with "He doesn't dope because he's a nice guy" and "He doesn't dope because he has bad days sometimes"

Don't be so harsh, I believed that last one for some time! The one that broke it down was Botero, who was notorious for his bad days, and later Vinokourov. The list 'bad days and doping' may, I suspect, also come to include the name of (sigh) Michael Boogerd.

 

[blackcat]

I met him at Philly, shook his hand, great guy, no way he'd dope.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

not to mention that fella Valverde, who always seemed to find an excuse to lose a packet where he shouldn't in every Grand Tour he entered until he actually got banned.

 

[issoisso]

Don't be so harsh, I believed that last one for some time! The one that broke it down was Botero, who was notorious for his bad days, and later Vinokourov. The list 'bad days and doping' may, I suspect, also come to include the name of (sigh) Michael Boogerd.

Look at the 90s. Notice how More EPO = Complete collapses are actually more common

I met him at Philly, shook his hand, great guy, no way he'd dope.

Better:

I know the guy. I know he wouldn't dope.

 

[luckyboy]

I once saw him smile. He wouldn't dope.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Cadel has been my favourite rider for years, and I was starting to doubt as well... Seeing him attack with power he never seemed to have had before was quite suspicious. But the Zoncolan relieved my worries. It was Cadel, the way Cadel had always been: suffering deeply, only barely being able to keep up with the masters, and getting there because of his willpower. Also, I still strongly believe in his chances to win this Giro. I'd love to see him win.

wonderfully said