131313 said:
My premise is that many of the haters have as difficult a time of looking at things critically as the chamois-sniffers. Case in point is your TT reference. If you actually look at the prior results, you point is simply not sustainable.
You'll always believe what you want to believe, and will a lot of people. I'd rather look objectively at the facts. I'd like it better if I could say he was a total no-talent hack or "clydesdale", but the evidence suggests otherwise.
Your issue is one of semantics. Armstrong was a "clydesdale"
in comparison to other Tour contenders. Armstrong had what it took to contest one-day races and shorter weeklong stage races of smaller stature, but never the Tour.
In comparison to Tour contenders, who must show proficiency in climbing mountains over 2,000 meters day in and day out, the pedigree was never there. Neither was his time trialing.
131313 said:
My opinion: we'll never know how he'd have fared in a clean peloton, but I imagine he'd have won the tour, probably more than once, in years that suited him. I highly doubt he'd have won 7.
He was no more a "donkey" than Indurain. They both appeared to be good one-day racers who showed promise for stage racing, and they both appeared to go down the dark path to get what they wanted. Big Tex was a lot more Machiavellian about it, though, and a lot bigger d-bag, which is why we're talking about him instead of Indurain.
I seriously beg to differ on this one. Indurain had a natural progression up the TdF standings, from...
DNF in 1984 (stage 4)
DNF in 1985 (stage 8) to...
...97th place in '87
47th in ''88
17th in 1989 (including a solo breakaway tour stage in the mountains)
10th in 1990 and then the rest was history.
He made his mark in smaller stage races like the Tour de L'Avenir (1986)
Paris-Nice (1989-1990)
Criterium International (1989)
Volta a Catalunya (1988).
During his time at Banesto Indurain was groomed for stage races by riding as a domestique for Pedro Delgado. The pedigree was there. For you to dismiss his climb up the ranks as a Tour rider and compare it to Armstrongs' is simply incorrect.
If you've ever read what other riders said about riding against Indurain in the '86 Tour de L'Avenir, you will see that his motor for grand Tours was there the whole time. Other riders clearly noticed it, and his palmares over time suggested the same.
Compare this with Armstrong's ascension up the Tour ranks. One minute he's getting blown out of the water by Indurain in a time trial by over 5 minutes and then in 1999 he's overtaking Abraham Olano and passing him like he's standing still.
One minute he's riding in the gruppetto in the mountains and then in 2000 Pantani is hanging on for dear life riding against him up Mont Ventoux.
The issue goes off the rails with the comparison of Indurain to Armstrong. They were two totally different riders with different styles and differing strengths and weaknesses. Indurain, though he did win San Sebastian, was NEVER groomed as a one-day rider. NEVER. His strengths were climbing and time trialing for three week Tours. This was evident from the get-go.
As for doping making a champion out of a donkey, yes it can happen. Perfect example is Claudio Chiappucci. An anonymous pro rider until the 1990 Tour, the first year of the so-called "Italian Renaissance" in cycling. Look at the record books to see how Italians were winning almost everything for a few years on trot.
I would say this is an objective take on the situation. I don't see what else I could have provided to prove my point. You may not agree with it, but like I said you began by incorrectly comparing two riders who could not be more dissimilar at the start of their respective careers. What I mean by this is, given the way both riders started off, Indurain becoming a Tour champion was not a stretch. Armstrong? No one would have fathomed one win much less seven, especially given the highly unlikely excuses given at the time which any sports physiologist worth half his salt could have poked holes in (the higher cadence, the dubious weight loss, etc.).
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