Crashes, what can be done?

[Netserk]

So is this now the most dangerous professional sport when looking at death and serious injuries count per athlete? And in the last couple of years, almost nothing was done to improve safety. Supertuck was banned and that was it. I think at this rate they will reach a breaking point sooner rather than later…

There’s a lot of ideas and nothing ever gets done. It’s amazing, really. Teenagers dying regularly is now the new standard in the sport. Just prescribe stiffer frames, stiffness tests and wider tires. Neutralise wet descends or wet stages in general. Start with something and don’t say nothing can be done.

A lot can be done. All harm can be avoided.

Ban Pro Cycling.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So is this now the most dangerous professional sport when looking at death and serious injuries count per athlete? And in the last couple of years, almost nothing was done to improve safety. Supertuck was banned and that was it. I think at this rate they will reach a breaking point sooner rather than later…

Isle of Man TT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[QueenStagiaire]

So is this now the most dangerous professional sport when looking at death and serious injuries count per athlete? And in the last couple of years, almost nothing was done to improve safety. Supertuck was banned and that was it. I think at this rate they will reach a breaking point sooner rather than later…

There’s a lot of ideas and nothing ever gets done. It’s amazing, really. Teenagers dying regularly is now the new standard in the sport. Just prescribe stiffer frames, stiffness tests and wider tires. Neutralise wet descends or wet stages in general. Start with something and don’t say nothing can be done.

I think banning supertuck has done nothing for safety. Also, sorry guys, the world championships are cancelled this year, it‘s raining. Like what, it‘s raining at Roubaix, no winner this year, or we move it to some point in May where we can safely plan again? Or are the neutralisations only for stage races? If so, why?

 

[Peyroteo94]

So is this now the most dangerous professional sport when looking at death and serious injuries count per athlete? And in the last couple of years, almost nothing was done to improve safety. Supertuck was banned and that was it. I think at this rate they will reach a breaking point sooner rather than later…

There’s a lot of ideas and nothing ever gets done. It’s amazing, really. Teenagers dying regularly is now the new standard in the sport. Just prescribe stiffer frames, stiffness tests and wider tires. Neutralise wet descends or wet stages in general. Start with something and don’t say nothing can be done.

Adam Hansen is that you?

 

[RedheadDane]

Does anyone know where on the route it happened?
Were the guys going past her as she was lying, unnoticed, in the forest? Maybe even multiple times...

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Does anyone know where on the route it happened?
Were the guys going past her as she was lying, unnoticed, in the forest? Maybe even multiple times...

It happened somewhere on the descent down to Küsnacht. There are pictures from the men's C4/5 race of ambulances being at the alleged scene of the accident at around 12:45.

 

[Red Rick]

So is this now the most dangerous professional sport when looking at death and serious injuries count per athlete? And in the last couple of years, almost nothing was done to improve safety. Supertuck was banned and that was it. I think at this rate they will reach a breaking point sooner rather than later…

There’s a lot of ideas and nothing ever gets done. It’s amazing, really. Teenagers dying regularly is now the new standard in the sport. Just prescribe stiffer frames, stiffness tests and wider tires. Neutralise wet descends or wet stages in general. Start with something and don’t say nothing can be done.

Oh yeah supertuck banned.

I've never seen anyone crash in supertuck in my 15 years of watching this sport

 

[Berniece]

Isle of Man TT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are there also a lot of teenagers dying?

 

[Savant12]

Cycling is a dangerous sport. You win by being the fastest and that means, sometimes, taking risks.

I am in favour of neutralizing dangerous descents in wet conditions.
But does that work at all times for one day races? They're not going to neutralizing the descent off the Poggio if its raining cause it's too close to the finish line.

 

[bNator]

Oh yeah supertuck banned.

I've never seen anyone crash in supertuck in my 15 years of watching this sport

Well wasn’t it just a couple of posts ago that you were saying how no one wants to do anything before it happens? Supertuck was dangerous, anyone who’s ever done it knows it. It was rightfully banned. But that was easy. Anyone can ban things. They need to do things…

 

[bNator]

Isle of Man TT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ok but that’s it, probably. So second most dangerous.

 

[bNator]

A lot can be done. All harm can be avoided.

Ban Pro Cycling.

Nothing can be done. No harm can be prevented. No sport has ever been successful at it🙄

 

[Roku]

Ok but that’s it, probably. So second most dangerous.

You still have Dakar rally in which every year someone passes away, usually motocyclists. Motor sports are more dangerous than cycling in general.

There are certain things that can be done, sometimes race designs are a bit too risky, but honestly fatal accidents often happen on lower risk areas (Kivilev, Lambrecht). Gino Mäder accident happened on a descent that had been used for many years without any consequence.

I don't agree at all with the current trend of "everything is risky", "ban everything", "if a fatal crash takes place then it is the organization's fault". Cycling is a dangerous sport that entails risks. Accepting that fact is the first step to improve things. Then, let's concentrate on realistic measures that can really improve safety.

 

[Red Rick]

Well wasn’t it just a couple of posts ago that you were saying how no one wants to do anything before it happens? Supertuck was dangerous, anyone who’s ever done it knows it. It was rightfully banned. But that was easy. Anyone can ban things. They need to do things…

Supertuck was all optics. It's very visual. It's actually a pretty stable position cause your center of gravity gets lower. Riders only using it on straight sections where cornering is very limited, and riders who weren't skilled or brave enough to use it simply didn't use it. The entire danger was self-limiting.

If anything, the supertuck ban just shows you the focus is all on PR, and not on things that are actually dangerous. Twisty technical descents have people shitting their pants when it rains when in reality you can just use your breaks and it also turns out that on narrow technical descents you don't hit 90 per hour and crashes tend to not kill you.

It is so obviously all for PR reasons that the Sormano descent, which everyone knows and has had numerous bad crashes over the years gets instantly banned the moment one of the golden boys decides to be stupid enough to chase Nibali and fall off mountain.

Meanwhile, causing crashes and taking out other riders with dangerous or stupid behavior is almost completely fair dinkum. It's completely ridiculous.

 

[bNator]

You still have Dakar rally in which every year someone passes away, usually motocyclists. Motor sports are more dangerous than cycling in general.

There are certain things that can be done, sometimes race designs are a bit too risky, but honestly fatal accidents often happen on lower risk areas (Kivilev, Lambrecht). Gino Mäder accident happened on a descent that had been used for many years without any consequence.

I don't agree at all with the current trend of "everything is risky", "ban everything", "if a fatal crash takes place then it is the organization's fault". Cycling is a dangerous sport that entails risks. Accepting that fact is the first step to improve things. Then, let's concentrate on realistic measures that can really improve safety.

I agree with your assessment. We need realistic measurements to be implemented but we need to start moving. My question earlier in the thread was: what has been done to improve safety besides banning certain positions on the bike in the recent years? Maybe I can extend that and ask what has been done besides trying to change riders behaviour (a little bit)? I think not a single thing (but I might be wrong).

So we are not talking about knee-jerk reaction here, we are talking about any reaction whatsoever. But everyone just sort of seems to be cool with it - it’s an inherently dangerous sport and as long as it’s other people dying and not me, I really don’t care that much… As long as it’s other people dying, I accept it’s a part of our sport.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

We don't know if it's true.
I love races without radios however when we see radios can probably save a rider's life, I'm all in for radios.
I think the only way to avoid death on the road is by making all stages/classics a TT (without dangerous descents). Of course this is not gonna happen.

I think the safety argument in terms of removing tactical radio support is a total red herring.

All radios on one channel: Race control can speak to all riders, and riders (and maybe some other parties) have access to speak up where necessary. Safety requirements met, remote control tactics removed.

Daft to have transponders attached to the bikes, which can be changed mid-race. These are, I think, tiny (transponders, not bikes), so have the riders carry them.

I do worry a bit about the radios: EF, I have particularly noticed, seem to have huge radios on their backs. Surely they could be a complicating factor in a fall, although not that would make for anything life-changing. Surely they could be smaller, but, in the current context, that is minor.

 

[Extinction]

Compulsory helmets were introduced in the 90s, which was a major advance in rider safety measures. Think about it, prior to that cyclists rode the same decents, the same corners, the same cobbles, with nothing protecting their heads. Beyond this there really isn't much else to do in terms of what a rider can wear to diminish the risk of serious or fatal injury after a fall. I'd have to look at old footage, but it seems to me that road furniture (which has increased over the years) is generally more padded than it was in the past. There was also less policing of sprint finishes to relogate riders for physical contact or moving from a line. Overall there is more awareness about having to take safety seriously in the peloton.

And yet the speeds have increased considerably, the riders seemingly compelled to take big risks to get results or be out of a contract. Sure it was like this in the past, but the sponsorship and management pressure today placed on the riders has probably increased, as larger investments and performance science to eke out every possible advantage have created an environment of hyper-expectations.

So, in short, I honestly don't know what can be done to make a sport safer that is inherently one of the most dangerous by its very nature: ride as fast as you can, shoulder to shoulder, elbow to elbow, on often narrow, twisty roads, under physical and mental duress, with little protective gear on your body.

 

[RedheadDane]

Compulsory helmets were introduced in the 90s, which was a major advance in rider safety measures.

Huh? Here I was, thinking they were introduced after the Kivilev crash, in 2003...

 

[Extinction]

Huh? Here I was, thinking they were introduced after the Kivilev crash, in 2003...

I just remember rider protests over being made to ride with a helment in like 1993. But you may be correct that compulsory helmets didn't actually take effect until 2003.

 

[Axel Hangleck]

I fear it's going to take a 'name' to have a horrific crash for any proper meaningful action to happen. Rather like Senna in 1994 in F1/ Motorsport.......

 

[RedheadDane]

I just remember rider protests over being made to ride with a helment in like 1993. But you may be correct that compulsory helmets didn't actually take effect until 2003.

There might have been country-based mandatory helmet use before then, but crazy that it took UCI a decade to realise that "Hmm... these people are on to something. Maybe we should make helmet use mandatory everywhere."

 

[awavey]

Oh yeah supertuck banned.

I've never seen anyone crash in supertuck in my 15 years of watching this sport

The logic for the ban was that it was us mere amateurs copying it and crashing.

 

[Ricco']

A lot of devices (helmets, bike computers, etc.) have now crash detectors that can send distress signals to emergency contacts in case of a fall. Don't think it will be hard, at least in major events like World Tour races and World Championships, to have this kind of devices that relay a warning sign to race control or team car in case of a fall.

Wasn't this how Steven de Jongh (I believe) was found and presumably saved when he fell out during a alone ride a few years ago?

 

[bNator]

Supertuck was all optics. It's very visual. It's actually a pretty stable position cause your center of gravity gets lower. Riders only using it on straight sections where cornering is very limited, and riders who weren't skilled or brave enough to use it simply didn't use it. The entire danger was self-limiting.

If anything, the supertuck ban just shows you the focus is all on PR, and not on things that are actually dangerous. Twisty technical descents have people shitting their pants when it rains when in reality you can just use your breaks and it also turns out that on narrow technical descents you don't hit 90 per hour and crashes tend to not kill you.

It is so obviously all for PR reasons that the Sormano descent, which everyone knows and has had numerous bad crashes over the years gets instantly banned the moment one of the golden boys decides to be stupid enough to chase Nibali and fall off mountain.

Meanwhile, causing crashes and taking out other riders with dangerous or stupid behavior is almost completely fair dinkum. It's completely ridiculous.

There is no way you can react to unpredictable situations on the road in supertuck position. Any animal or other obstacle comes on the road and you’re gone. What’s worse, those practices translated to lower categories. There were kids doing supertuck in U13 which now they don’t anymore.

You try to relieve UCI of any responsibility and focus 100% on the riders which is just as problematic as saying it’s all UCI

 

[Red Rick]

The logic for the ban was that it was us mere amateurs copying it and crashing.

"Logic" indeed.