Critérium du Dauphiné 2012 stage 4, 53.5km, Villié-Morgon-Bourg-en-Bresse, ITT

[Bumeington]

He has had no water since KM 4 or so, he sweats a huge amount, it will be affecting him a huge amount by now.

This annoys me. Dehyration < 8% has been shown to have an insignificant affect on performance, so drinking in a 1 hour time trial shouldn't be neccessary if you come in fully hydrated.

 

[Bumeington]

Thanks

ahskgfjaf lksdgl

It was wrong, he was comparing a plural (time trials) to a singular (a torrent), correct would have been to say watching a time trial....

 

[theyoungest]

So... by outclimbing... you mean taking back about 12 second? Because that's the time Gesink took on JVDB in all the mountainstages combined in 2010. Menchov outclimbed him, yes. But that was two years ago. He's 34 now, JvdB is 29 now.

Gesink rode what was basically his first Tour at the time, and working for Menchov at that. But I'm not getting into this discussion again, I don't consider Gesink a contender for this year's Tour so why bother.

And he never has? If you're talking about Contador and an in-form Andy, sure. But if you mean something else, you need to get your facts straight.

Was he among the 5 best climbers in any major mountain stage? Like on the Madeleine, or on the Tourmalet? I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Even if we take out the cobbled stone stage VDB2 entered in front of Gesink.

If you take the time purely by the climbing stages Gesink was 15 seconds faster over the climbs. This is -TT, -flat stage. Purely the mountain stages. So I'd say they were equal. VDB had his bad days and Gesink had his bad days. But in the mountains they evened eachother out.

Besides, the comparison is usless. Both Gesink and JvdB are different riders than in 2010.
2 year old data won't say much now

 

[JA.Tri]

We all know that the Dutch posters are the best and the German posters, the least biased.

Had to watch that finish delayed and I just knew the result would make WW 3 break out around here.

Tis the Dauphine and only a pointer towards what might take place at the Tour.
2009 Evans was flying around the Dauphine mountains and dying in them, a month later.
Similarly, he was steady, last year in June and ready, come July.

Having said that, it's not a gimme that it will be Evans flying up the Tour hills, with Wiggins hanging on for dear life.
Cadel has had his fair share of collapses on the big cols, in the past.

Seconded.

We have an indication of where the Tour contenders are at in ITT and then we apply our perceptions to our observations leaving a muddy picture of current and future reality.

Assume Martin was near his best.
Therefore:
. Wiggins: awesome ride
. JVDB probably improved if he is at a similar stage to last year?
. Andy has sooo much to learn at ITT, placing him at a significant disadvantage (dead straight road with howling tailwind and he'll be "ok")
. Cadel thereabouts given same caveat as JVDB (Cadel really didn't want to be caught by Brad; going from 1.51 down with 10 km to go to finish 1.43 down)
. Mick R back from the wilderness
. Lulu good ride

Slight aside: Sky looks very impressive ...will Brad hold/maintain/recover so that he peaks appropriately? I figure the last few years have given insight, therefore I assume he will peak as well as (if not better than) last year.

Very intriguing...looking forward to Joux Plane.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Gesink rode what was basically his first Tour at the time, and working for Menchov at that. But I'm not getting into this discussion again, I don't consider Gesink a contender for this year's Tour so why bother.


Was he among the 5 best climbers in any major mountain stage? Like on the Madeleine, or on the Tourmalet? I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

He has a tendency to get outsprinted in the final 200 meters, if that's what you are refering to. He also rode the Giro the previous year, were apart from Contador and a couple of dopers, he was one of the best climbers.

And i didn't see Gesink do a lot of work for Menchov in that tour. Maybe that was originally the plan, but did he ever pull for Menchov? Did he have to carry bottles? Seems more like an excuse than anything else tbh. Just because Menchov was nr1, doesn't mean your nr2 has to do all his dirty work.

If you take the time purely by the climbing stages Gesink was 15 seconds faster over the climbs. This is -TT, -flat stage. Purely the mountain stages. So I'd say they were equal. VDB had his bad days and Gesink had his bad days. But in the mountains they evened eachother out.

Besides, the comparison is usless. Both Gesink and JvdB are different riders than in 2010.
2 year old data won't say much now

Exactly. To be clear, i 'm not arguing JvdB is the better rider/climber. I just don't agree with the statement that Gesink "outclimbed" him in 2010.

 

[El Pistolero]

If you take the time purely by the climbing stages Gesink was 15 seconds faster over the climbs. This is -TT, -flat stage. Purely the mountain stages. So I'd say they were equal. VDB had his bad days and Gesink had his bad days. But in the mountains they evened eachother out.

Besides, the comparison is usless. Both Gesink and JvdB are different riders than in 2010.
2 year old data won't say much now

Yeah, I agree. It could go either way. If both are in top form, without any accidents, I think they're extremely close to each other in a Grand Tour. GC wise that is.

 

[goggalor]

This annoys me. Dehyration < 8% has been shown to have an insignificant affect on performance, so drinking in a 1 hour time trial shouldn't be neccessary if you come in fully hydrated.

How about recovery? Could affect his willingness to go all out. It did look like having Wiggins 100 m behind made him pick up the pace a bit from the second checkpoint.

 

[theyoungest]

And i didn't see Gesink do a lot of work for Menchov in that tour. Maybe that was originally the plan, but did he ever pull for Menchov? Did he have to carry bottles? Seems more like an excuse than anything else tbh. Just because Menchov was nr1, doesn't mean your nr2 has to do all his dirty work.

Then you didn't watch. He rode half the Tourmalet on the front of the chase group (which also included VDB, by the way... whom he later dropped). Same goes for the Madeleine, where he led Menchov, Rodriguez, and Leipheimer over the top (VDB wasn't even in that group).

But this VDB-Gesink discussion is really getting old, and totally irrelevant. So once again, why bother. I think VDB will beat him comfortably this year.

 

[Der Effe]

You won't hear the BBC during Wimbledon say Scotland's Andy Murray, its always Britain's Andy Murray just like it is Britain's Bradley Wiggins. A Murray win just like a Wiggins one I am sure will be claimed and celebrated throughout Britain. I guarantee you that.

Murray is only Scottish when he loses, if he wins he's British. Typical English behaviour.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Then you didn't watch. He rode half the Tourmalet on the front of the chase group (which also included VDB, by the way... whom he later dropped). Same goes for the Madeleine, where he led Menchov, Rodriguez, and Leipheimer over the top (VDB wasn't even in that group).

But this VDB-Gesink discussion is really getting old, and totally irrelevant. So once again, why bother. I think VDB will beat him comfortably this year.

Fine. But still he didn't "outclimb" him.

 

[JA.Tri]

This annoys me. Dehyration < 8% has been shown to have an insignificant affect on performance, so drinking in a 1 hour time trial shouldn't be neccessary if you come in fully hydrated.

IIRC:
> 3% noticable effect
> 6% significant impact on health


See (among others):


Human Kinetics / Excerpts
Dehydration and its effects on performance
By Asker Jeukendrup and Micheal Gleeson


Fatigue toward the end of a prolonged sporting event may result as much from dehydration as from fuel substrate depletion. Exercise performance is impaired when an individual is dehydrated by as little as 2% of body weight. Losses in excess of 5% of body weight can decrease the capacity for work by about 30% (Armstrong et al. 1985; Craig and Cummings 1966; Maughan 1991; Sawka and Pandolf 1990).

 

[theyoungest]

Fine. But still he didn't "outclimb" him.

BTW I do hope for your sake that VDB will ride a good Tour, because boy do you have a lot of hopes invested in him

It's good to see such unfailing support. Something the Dutch aren't generally very good at.

 

[Arnout]

Ah so because I'm Dutch I would be better if I also were to support Dutch riders.

 

[Der Effe]

BTW I do hope for your sake that VDB will ride a good Tour, because boy do you have a lot of hopes invested in him

It's good to see such unfailing support. Something the Dutch aren't generally very good at.

Yep, if Kelderman doesn't win the Tour within 3 years he's a spoiled mental trainwreck who should consider retiring while he has some dignity left.

 

[Bumeington]

How about recovery? Could affect his willingness to go all out. It did look like having Wiggins 100 m behind made him pick up the pace a bit from the second checkpoint.

How much water do you think he's going to drink in the stage anyway?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Looks like Vince Nibs got his answer, today and the news wasn't great.
Expect to lose around 6 minutes or more in the Tour ITTs.
That's an awful lot of scary downhilling you have to undertake, there, Mr Squalo.


Loving the way the Aussies are whining about the Brits gloating.
Clearly having the shoe on the other foot is pinching at a nation's nerve.

 

[Bumeington]

IIRC:
> 3% noticable effect
> 6% significant impact on health


See (among others):


Human Kinetics / Excerpts
Dehydration and its effects on performance
By Asker Jeukendrup and Micheal Gleeson


Fatigue toward the end of a prolonged sporting event may result as much from dehydration as from fuel substrate depletion. Exercise performance is impaired when an individual is dehydrated by as little as 2% of body weight. Losses in excess of 5% of body weight can decrease the capacity for work by about 30% (Armstrong et al. 1985; Craig and Cummings 1966; Maughan 1991; Sawka and Pandolf 1990).

You're numbers are in % of body weight that's not what I meant. Anyway, you think Evans is losing >1.3kg in a one hour effort?

 

[goggalor]

How much water do you think he's going to drink in the stage anyway?

Half a liter? There must be a reason why every rider including Wiggo brings a bottle on a long, hot TT like today.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

BTW I do hope for your sake that VDB will ride a good Tour, because boy do you have a lot of hopes invested in him

It's good to see such unfailing support. Something the Dutch aren't generally very good at.

Like i said above, i will root for him, that doesn't mean i think he will win the tour. The discussion started with a statement that said top 5 is the best he could hope for. I disagree. He could be 2nd or 3rd. He could also be 9th or 10th. And i also disagree that Gesink outclimbed him. I don't think i'm making outlandish claims, just calling 'm like i see 'm. And based on todays ITT, it's looking better than i previously imagined. Now we just have to see if his climbing suffered from his ITT training.

PS: and i'm fed up with the argument some make of him being "less talented" than his opponents. If that were the case, he wouldn't finish his last GC's of the three major GT's in the top 8. The worst placing of those, being a month after he broke his ribs, colarbone and punctured his lung.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Either Wiggins is going to run out of steam come the end of the Tour, or he is doing something spectacular, because he has shown up at every race this year in incredible form. Seriously, he's not missed a step, even once. OK, he hasn't had to climb anything particularly difficult in anger yet, but part of that's because race routes have been more or less universally poor this year, and the Tour's no different. This isn't the Bradley Wiggins we saw in 2009, it's not the Wiggins we saw in 2011 even, and it sure as hell isn't the Bradley Wiggins we saw in 2010. Wiggins has ALWAYS been an excellent time triallist, but he's not been THIS good - he's been 1st in every full length time trial he's entered this year, and 2nd in the prologues except for Romandie. Even when he was purely an ITT specialist who paid no attention to climbing whatsoever, he wasn't this good.

The only times this year he hasn't totally bossed things have been Malhão, when he led out Porte rather than be the leader himself, and Catalunya, where he, along with many other major names, climbed off on the farcical Port-Ainé stage. Everything else? Domination.

 

[JA.Tri]

How about recovery? Could affect his willingness to go all out. It did look like having Wiggins 100 m behind made him pick up the pace a bit from the second checkpoint.

I am guessing:

Cadel was using gut feel and perhaps Martin's time checks to do a solid effort. His time loss over the 20-40km perhaps was down to discomfort associated with lack of water and therefore backing off further. At 40km he "notes" Brad at approx 10sec back and changes tack. "****** it" I don't want Brad catching me so I'll put in. As a result the margin back to Brad increases slightly.

 

[JA.Tri]

You're numbers are in % of body weight that's not what I meant. Anyway, you think Evans is losing >1.3kg in a one hour effort?

Sorry, then I have no idea what you mean. Dehydration is normally expressed as % body weight.

I have no idea as to % body weight loss Cadel may have experienced. I speculate that Cadel experienced discomfort associated with thirst. Certainly 1.3kg is possible.

 

[ElChingon]

Today's Schleck Line, 164, definite Interstate range but much higher than previously guessed, note those were all under the line, not just the highlights. At this rate the Schleck Line is headed to the county road range.

164 ----------------------------------------------
165 Kenny De Haes (Bel) Lotto Belisol Team 0:10:50
166 Frederik Willems (Bel) Lotto Belisol Team 0:11:01
167 Michel Kreder (Ned) Garmin - Barracuda 0:11:09
168 Arnaud Gerard (Fra) FDJ-Big Mat 0:11:50
169 Arnold Jeannesson (Fra) FDJ-Big Mat 0:12:22
170 Nacer Bouhanni (Fra) FDJ-Big Mat 0:13:35
171 Sep Vanmarcke (Bel) Garmin - Barracuda 0:15:20

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Wow... just got caught up on today's stage. Wiggins didn't just win the ITT. He absolutely destroyed his competition. What a display! Only one other rider was even within a minute? Damn. The closest likely TdF GC contender was Evans at 1:43 down. I'm not on the VDB bandwagon. I don't think he has a realistic shot in France. IMO the next contender would be Menchov at over 3 minutes behind today. If Wiggins can hold this form he will be a monster at the TdF.

Hmm. Still I can't help but think many TDF contenders are clearly not 100% yet, including Wiggins himself. After all Kelderman finished just 1'25 down and he's a neo pro