- May 5, 2010
- 49,624
- 28,004
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Re: Re:
Maybe they were singing. Who knows?
Probably not, but... it's possible. Though that would have been pretty show-offey...
RattaKuningas said:RedheadDane said:
Oh, I meant stage 7 indeed.
Also signs not sings.
Maybe they were singing. Who knows?
Probably not, but... it's possible. Though that would have been pretty show-offey...
- Feb 20, 2010
- 32,508
- 14,281
- 28,180
Re: Re:
It is too simplistic to claim a direct correlation between short mountain stages and good mountain stages, otherwise we'd all be waxing lyrical about the Vuelta in the early 2000s. The short mountain stages absolutely do work as part of a cohesive whole. I.e., they are not the answer in and of themselves, but only part of the puzzle.
The short mountain stage here - as with Formigal, and Alpe d'Huez back in 2011, works for the same reason the 2009 Vuelta mountain stages did not. In that Vuelta, the best designed multi-climb stage was soft-pedalled because riders had two more mountain stages back to back to follow; then they were tentative in the hardest stage because the third mountain stage ended on the nastiest, steepest climb, which made the riders afraid to take more risks. A common traceur way to get around this problem when you have two or three mountain stages back to back is to make the first one on a seriously tough mountaintop finish, a climb hard enough you will guarantee gaps, so the riders can't soft-pedal it and nuke the stage, even if they are afraid of the days to come. Examples in real life include Zoncolan in the 2011 Giro (meaning everybody was exhausted for the following harder multi-climb stage) and Angliru in the 2008 Vuelta (meaning San Isidro was far more decisive than it had any right to be the following day). Of course, the alternative which has come into vogue is to make the last mountain stage short, so that riders aren't afraid of it. This produces the formula in reverse; because riders aren't afraid of the short stage, there's more chance of the riders going hard in the earlier stages, meaning there are more varied fatigue levels in the ensuing short stage (as opposed to the all-out MTF idea that I previously mentioned, where generally because of the following stages, riders would all show similar fatigue as they would wait until the MTF in the earlier stage) for riders to exploit. It also means there's more of a 'cold open' factor, of riders not yet properly in the rhythm of the day having to respond to early moves. That Formigal stage would not have worked if you hadn't had the Aubisque stage before it and instead you had another 120km mountain stage. Without the fatigue from the queen stage the day before, the Sky domestiques rally, bring Froome back to the leaders, and we get a shootout for 15-20 seconds of time won or lost at the top of the final climb. With a 200km Formigal stage, Contador and Quintana don't have enough helpers to keep them going through the whole stage and eventually get dragged back once Castroviejo and Fernández explode. It's the combination of stages that makes it work.
The reason it works also is partly psychological. Like I've said before about the 2012 Vuelta being a deeply flawed route that succeeded because of a bunch of factors falling into place, the same applies to the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2011 that has led to this latest fashion for espoir-length mountain stages in the major races. There is one man you need to thank if this format works for you, and his name is Andy Schleck. If Andy Schleck hadn't raced like such a lobotomized idiot in the Pyrenees in the 2011 Tour, then descended like Ivan Basso on rollerskates, he doesn't need to go from afar on the Galibier stage; when Contador attacks on the Télégraphe, the péloton doesn't explode, everybody goes over the Galibier in a conventional reduced maillot jaune group and we get the same 14km shoot out as always on the Alpe. Instead, we got a great stage - in fact we got three or four stages that seemingly to this day have enabled people to forget that for two weeks we were served up really poor racing that year. But ASO obviously - and understandably - saw the success that that stage provided, and repeated the formula. Again and again, until it now looks like it's becoming the norm.
But the short stage has to be used well. As a final stage in a prep race? Sure! As a last gasp mountain stage like Alpe d'Huez in 2011 or Sant'Anna di Vinadio in 2016? Great! However, at the same time there have been some very poor uses of such stages. Oropa in this year's Giro was a complete joke, for example. It was poorly designed for these short-sharp mountain stages because it was Unipuerto, which rendered the short stage entirely pointless as no matter what length it was it would come to the final climb, and if you ARE going to go Unipuerto, bigger gaps are more likely with more mileage in the legs before the climb; and it was paced badly because it was BEFORE all the toughest mountain stages, so the riders were more circumspect about taking those risks.
1000x this.vedrafjord said:
It is too simplistic to claim a direct correlation between short mountain stages and good mountain stages, otherwise we'd all be waxing lyrical about the Vuelta in the early 2000s. The short mountain stages absolutely do work as part of a cohesive whole. I.e., they are not the answer in and of themselves, but only part of the puzzle.
The short mountain stage here - as with Formigal, and Alpe d'Huez back in 2011, works for the same reason the 2009 Vuelta mountain stages did not. In that Vuelta, the best designed multi-climb stage was soft-pedalled because riders had two more mountain stages back to back to follow; then they were tentative in the hardest stage because the third mountain stage ended on the nastiest, steepest climb, which made the riders afraid to take more risks. A common traceur way to get around this problem when you have two or three mountain stages back to back is to make the first one on a seriously tough mountaintop finish, a climb hard enough you will guarantee gaps, so the riders can't soft-pedal it and nuke the stage, even if they are afraid of the days to come. Examples in real life include Zoncolan in the 2011 Giro (meaning everybody was exhausted for the following harder multi-climb stage) and Angliru in the 2008 Vuelta (meaning San Isidro was far more decisive than it had any right to be the following day). Of course, the alternative which has come into vogue is to make the last mountain stage short, so that riders aren't afraid of it. This produces the formula in reverse; because riders aren't afraid of the short stage, there's more chance of the riders going hard in the earlier stages, meaning there are more varied fatigue levels in the ensuing short stage (as opposed to the all-out MTF idea that I previously mentioned, where generally because of the following stages, riders would all show similar fatigue as they would wait until the MTF in the earlier stage) for riders to exploit. It also means there's more of a 'cold open' factor, of riders not yet properly in the rhythm of the day having to respond to early moves. That Formigal stage would not have worked if you hadn't had the Aubisque stage before it and instead you had another 120km mountain stage. Without the fatigue from the queen stage the day before, the Sky domestiques rally, bring Froome back to the leaders, and we get a shootout for 15-20 seconds of time won or lost at the top of the final climb. With a 200km Formigal stage, Contador and Quintana don't have enough helpers to keep them going through the whole stage and eventually get dragged back once Castroviejo and Fernández explode. It's the combination of stages that makes it work.
The reason it works also is partly psychological. Like I've said before about the 2012 Vuelta being a deeply flawed route that succeeded because of a bunch of factors falling into place, the same applies to the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2011 that has led to this latest fashion for espoir-length mountain stages in the major races. There is one man you need to thank if this format works for you, and his name is Andy Schleck. If Andy Schleck hadn't raced like such a lobotomized idiot in the Pyrenees in the 2011 Tour, then descended like Ivan Basso on rollerskates, he doesn't need to go from afar on the Galibier stage; when Contador attacks on the Télégraphe, the péloton doesn't explode, everybody goes over the Galibier in a conventional reduced maillot jaune group and we get the same 14km shoot out as always on the Alpe. Instead, we got a great stage - in fact we got three or four stages that seemingly to this day have enabled people to forget that for two weeks we were served up really poor racing that year. But ASO obviously - and understandably - saw the success that that stage provided, and repeated the formula. Again and again, until it now looks like it's becoming the norm.
But the short stage has to be used well. As a final stage in a prep race? Sure! As a last gasp mountain stage like Alpe d'Huez in 2011 or Sant'Anna di Vinadio in 2016? Great! However, at the same time there have been some very poor uses of such stages. Oropa in this year's Giro was a complete joke, for example. It was poorly designed for these short-sharp mountain stages because it was Unipuerto, which rendered the short stage entirely pointless as no matter what length it was it would come to the final climb, and if you ARE going to go Unipuerto, bigger gaps are more likely with more mileage in the legs before the climb; and it was paced badly because it was BEFORE all the toughest mountain stages, so the riders were more circumspect about taking those risks.
- Jun 30, 2014
- 7,060
- 2
- 0
I couldn't watch the stage because of working on the fields only to find ut that I miissed the biggest Danish mountain raid since 2007.
Great ride by Jakob, he deserved it and his name always reminds me of T. C. Boyle's novel Budding Prospects.
Great ride by Jakob, he deserved it and his name always reminds me of T. C. Boyle's novel Budding Prospects.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
- 5,694
- 5,908
- 23,180
Re: Re:
Spot on. BMC did very well for Porte in the days before but today they paid for that and were found badly wanting. Porte will be thankful the team for the Tour should be a lot stronger with Roche, Sanchez, Küng, Caruso, Dennis, Oss, Van Avertmaet. Maybe even Tejay.
vedrafjord said:
Spot on. BMC did very well for Porte in the days before but today they paid for that and were found badly wanting. Porte will be thankful the team for the Tour should be a lot stronger with Roche, Sanchez, Küng, Caruso, Dennis, Oss, Van Avertmaet. Maybe even Tejay.
Netserk
BANNED
- Apr 30, 2011
- 45,459
- 27,940
- 28,180
Re: Re:
It's almost as if I wrote "more likely to" and not "certain to"...
Gosh! :surprised:Valv.Piti said:Thats not the point at all, gosh.. point being that some riders didn't go all out on a short stage, Contador decided for whatever reason to do it the day before.Netserk said:Oh, the 167.5km long stage
It's almost as if I wrote "more likely to" and not "certain to"...
- Apr 16, 2009
- 17,455
- 6,600
- 28,180
Re:
The key is to put it after the queen stage, a very hard stage or the last stage. Otherwise it loses the edge. But all in al it has delivered great spectacles lately.
This.tobydawq said:
The key is to put it after the queen stage, a very hard stage or the last stage. Otherwise it loses the edge. But all in al it has delivered great spectacles lately.
- Jun 30, 2014
- 7,060
- 2
- 0
Also, monster ride by Meintjes, the guy is really a great diesel for the high mountains.
You could say the same about Buchmann, also a great pure climber for the high mountains and top 10 on gc in Trentino, Romandie and the Dauphine, that's good for him. Too bad that h'l probably hae to work for Majka duning the Tour, the guy could go for stages in the high mountains and/or the Polka Dot jersey.
Buchmann performing so well is not a srprise, I saw him training hard in the Dolomites.
For real, the rest of the Bora squad that wasn't riding the Giro or California was training in the Dolomites, I saw them in Toblach on stage 8 of the Giro.
You could say the same about Buchmann, also a great pure climber for the high mountains and top 10 on gc in Trentino, Romandie and the Dauphine, that's good for him. Too bad that h'l probably hae to work for Majka duning the Tour, the guy could go for stages in the high mountains and/or the Polka Dot jersey.
Buchmann performing so well is not a srprise, I saw him training hard in the Dolomites.
For real, the rest of the Bora squad that wasn't riding the Giro or California was training in the Dolomites, I saw them in Toblach on stage 8 of the Giro.
- Apr 16, 2009
- 17,455
- 6,600
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Re:
The problem with that stage is that the finish is too far from the last mountain. Just like the Mont du Chat stage. The blew the two stages.Valv.Piti said:
- May 13, 2015
- 2,165
- 63
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Great racing today.
Have the riders finally learned that they have to attack Froome from further out instead of waiting for the last 5k?
Mulitiple attacks from far out from main GC riders seem to weaken Froome a lot. Especially when his team is not that strong.
Have the riders finally learned that they have to attack Froome from further out instead of waiting for the last 5k?
Mulitiple attacks from far out from main GC riders seem to weaken Froome a lot. Especially when his team is not that strong.
- Nov 7, 2010
- 8,820
- 246
- 17,880
Re:
As always though, it's up to the riders if we get a spectacle or not. There's certainly a chance on any short stage - especially in the mountains - if enough teams are committed to creating chaos.
Yeah, it's at least an effort to include a stage where the best tactics haven't been worked out years ago as well. So has the potential to be unpredictable. I'm just not sure on the Foix stage of the wisdom of putting a proper little murito followed by a long, almost false flat at times. I'd probably prefer to see either a proper HC climb followed by the false flat, or a murito followed by a fast descent.Valv.Piti said:
As always though, it's up to the riders if we get a spectacle or not. There's certainly a chance on any short stage - especially in the mountains - if enough teams are committed to creating chaos.
- Sep 29, 2013
- 252
- 0
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Yes the team in the Tour will be stronger, but they don´t have even 1 guy at the level of the 4 top domestiques of the Sky train. I hope at least they protect well Richie before the mountains, where he is by far inferior to a guy like froome.
Cookster15 said:
Yes the team in the Tour will be stronger, but they don´t have even 1 guy at the level of the 4 top domestiques of the Sky train. I hope at least they protect well Richie before the mountains, where he is by far inferior to a guy like froome.
- Aug 3, 2015
- 22,055
- 9,528
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Re: Re:
Don't get me wrong, I too do think the stage to Foix is laughable, but stranger things have happened. We mocked the stage to Formigal almost to the same extent. But if they will open on the first mountain, then Agnes, there are possiblities.DFA123 said:
- May 13, 2015
- 2,165
- 63
- 11,580
Re:
He can't sprint for ***
He's also yet to take a pro win. Hope he finally takes it.
WheelofGear said:
He can't sprint for ***
He's also yet to take a pro win. Hope he finally takes it.
- Nov 16, 2013
- 25,913
- 26,529
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Re:
Those guys are winning/won races...
But I agree, it was a crazy ride by him throughout the race. I really hope he finally erases that big ugly zero in his professional victories tally in the Tour.
Regarding the discussion I initiated of the short stage conundrum. Thanks for the inputs; it's nice to understand your motivation for the critique a little better, even though I am not sure I completely get why it's fair to assume that a short stage can only be acceptable if preceded by long, hard ones (it's not exactly like the development of the Formigal stage was anything that could have been predicted by anybody, even though the previous stage had been badcrap crazy). It's true that in that specific instance, the Sky train was probably derailed because of the hard stage before (because the initial race-shattering terrain was very mellow), but I think that a stage like today's would have developed like it did even if yesterday's had been a flat stage. And the Oropa stage obviously sucked - these kinds of stages need to be saw-toothed (or close to it) in order to work, that's pretty axiomatic. I also agree that the Foix stage looks stupid.
I wonder whether some of the magic with these short stages also has something to do with the fact that a big group of early-day attackers cannot establish itself due to time constraints, and we then see the captains duke it out for a long time at the very front of the race. That is very appealing to me, at least.
WheelofGear said:
Those guys are winning/won races...
But I agree, it was a crazy ride by him throughout the race. I really hope he finally erases that big ugly zero in his professional victories tally in the Tour.
Regarding the discussion I initiated of the short stage conundrum. Thanks for the inputs; it's nice to understand your motivation for the critique a little better, even though I am not sure I completely get why it's fair to assume that a short stage can only be acceptable if preceded by long, hard ones (it's not exactly like the development of the Formigal stage was anything that could have been predicted by anybody, even though the previous stage had been badcrap crazy). It's true that in that specific instance, the Sky train was probably derailed because of the hard stage before (because the initial race-shattering terrain was very mellow), but I think that a stage like today's would have developed like it did even if yesterday's had been a flat stage. And the Oropa stage obviously sucked - these kinds of stages need to be saw-toothed (or close to it) in order to work, that's pretty axiomatic. I also agree that the Foix stage looks stupid.
I wonder whether some of the magic with these short stages also has something to do with the fact that a big group of early-day attackers cannot establish itself due to time constraints, and we then see the captains duke it out for a long time at the very front of the race. That is very appealing to me, at least.
- Feb 18, 2015
- 13,655
- 9,431
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Re:
I generally wouldn't even complain about a stage like that under different circumstances. As the 3rd mountain stage in a row after a super hard pyrenees stage, just like described by LS, this could be interesting. However I have to say that even in this situation that stage wouldn't be perfect, because of the finale of the stage, especially the final climb. I'm a big fan of the Mur de Peguere, but not in this stage. There won't be attacks on the climb before the final ramp, the final ramp won't be hard enough to cause really big gaps if the legs aren't already tired and the false flat descent after the climb is very long so if the time gaps are as small as I expect they will nullify after the top.
@Libertine Seguros
I completely agree with your post with one exception. Using Sant Anna di Vinadio stage as an example for a very good short mountain stage is exactly as wrong as using the tdf 2011 as an example for a good gt.
The finale was amazing but besides that the rest was rather boring. I also think this isn't a good example for the stage design of a short mountain stage because this stage was actually too hard. You had one climb with 1100m of climbing and two passes with around 1500m of climbing plus a very steep ramp at the end. Such a stage is anything but perfect for an ambush and is so hard that it can easily scare riders on the stages before. The only reason why the stage before this one was so amazing were the big time gaps which meant that Chavez and Nibali had to attack although there was still another mountain stage to come.
A lot depends on the gc situation. Froome leads, there is a 0.0001% chance that stage gets epic. A rider with a very vulnerable team leads and there is still only a small chance for a really good stage but at least its there.Valv.Piti said:
I generally wouldn't even complain about a stage like that under different circumstances. As the 3rd mountain stage in a row after a super hard pyrenees stage, just like described by LS, this could be interesting. However I have to say that even in this situation that stage wouldn't be perfect, because of the finale of the stage, especially the final climb. I'm a big fan of the Mur de Peguere, but not in this stage. There won't be attacks on the climb before the final ramp, the final ramp won't be hard enough to cause really big gaps if the legs aren't already tired and the false flat descent after the climb is very long so if the time gaps are as small as I expect they will nullify after the top.
@Libertine Seguros
I completely agree with your post with one exception. Using Sant Anna di Vinadio stage as an example for a very good short mountain stage is exactly as wrong as using the tdf 2011 as an example for a good gt.
The finale was amazing but besides that the rest was rather boring. I also think this isn't a good example for the stage design of a short mountain stage because this stage was actually too hard. You had one climb with 1100m of climbing and two passes with around 1500m of climbing plus a very steep ramp at the end. Such a stage is anything but perfect for an ambush and is so hard that it can easily scare riders on the stages before. The only reason why the stage before this one was so amazing were the big time gaps which meant that Chavez and Nibali had to attack although there was still another mountain stage to come.
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