Cycle of Lies

[elizab]

I don't know how to work this multiple quote thing!!!

well, Kik might be able to help you with that you know, she can go on Oprah and make a prayer and everyone hold hands in kumbaya

you are funny!

 

[elizab]

wow I actually had forgotten about POLISH

@JulietMacur: "Cycle of Lies: The Fall of Lance Armstrong," hit NY Times best seller list in its 1st week! Many thanks to everyone for reading my work.

Wow! I've seen no reviews but for one in America and no publicity. Coupled with bad placing in the book store, that's something!

 

[Granville57]

Wow! I've seen no reviews but for one in America and no publicity. Coupled with bad placing in the book store, that's something!

Actually, forget about Stapleton. Maybe Linda is running around buying up all the copies before too many find out about the myth, within the myth, within the myth.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Actually, forget about Stapleton. Maybe Linda is running around buying up all the copies before too many find out about the myth, within the myth, within the myth.

kumbaya special..it might be Kik buying them..
they'll discuss at their next IF conference.

 

[Granville57]

Betsy, how might you describe your relationship with Juliet Macur?

She seems to praise your tenacity, but also almost depicts you as a bit of a loon at times.
(Although she never called you fat)

Chapter 17
Betsy...supplied background information and texted/emailed/called [Bob] Hamman nearly continuously. Tillotson had to tell Hamman, "Back off from Betsy. She's not on our legal team. She's a witness.

Chapter 25
It was clear that on some days she spoke to reporters nearly nonstop because while we were speaking on her home phone, her cell phone would ring and ring as if she were a switchboard operator. (emphasis mine)

Chapter 25
[Just prior to Oprah]
Armstrong talked to Frankie for ten minutes. For another forty, he spoke to Betsy, only because she made him listen to her tirade against him.

I just wasn't always sure as to how Juliet was trying to portray you.

Thoughts?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

As doping invariably starts (for most) at an early age, say 18-20, I would have gone straight to my parents and told them that Carmichael and friends were injecting me. Any rider who allowed themselves to be injected without either asking questions themselves or talking to a parent/mentor was just conveniently setting aside both the morality of it and the potential dangers to health. You can certainly be coerced into doing very wrong things when you're 18, but there is always an element of "I know this is a bad thing going on here".

In most state and provincial jurisdictions in North America being 18, 19 or 21 is legal age. While I do not discourage any young athlete from getting advice from parents, if you are old enough to vote or fight for your country, you are old enough to know right from wrong,

 

[MarkvW]

In most state and provincial jurisdictions in North America being 18, 19 or 21 is legal age. While I do not discourage any young athlete from getting advice from parents, if you are old enough to vote or fight for your country, you are old enough to know right from wrong,

I think that "responsible" fits in better than "know right from wrong."

 

[Alpe73]

In most state and provincial jurisdictions in North America being 18, 19 or 21 is legal age. While I do not discourage any young athlete from getting advice from parents, if you are old enough to vote or fight for your country, you are old enough to know right from wrong,

Salient point.

 

[Alpe73]

I think that "responsible" fits in better than "know right from wrong."

Yeah ... that's more precise.

 

[Dave_1]

Trust me, a passive weak stay-at-home mom wouldn't have been able to put up with the ongoing smear and attack campaign of the last ten years. I'm a helluva lot stronger than a lot of cyclists who were crying to authorities once they were caught.



As I said, it's all my opinion.



Bingo.

Fair comment elizab
Just meant the female species in general have less aggression, possibly less of the Type A traits that make that the male alpha competitor often so corruptible and odious. Good on you for putting up such a fight. The Macur book suggests you're going to have some more battles ahead sadly as that person is not well clearly and can't see what is wrong with using everyone and breaking all rules.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

kumbaya special..it might be Kik buying them..
they'll discuss at their next IF conference.

The old L Ron Hubbard trick.............

 

[Race Radio]

Betsy, how might you describe your relationship with Juliet Macur?

She seems to praise your tenacity, but also almost depicts you as a bit of a loon at times.
(Although she never called you fat)


I just wasn't always sure as to how Juliet was trying to portray you.

Thoughts?

I can't speak for Betsy but I always find these claims odd.

Armstrong, and Livestrong, spends millions of $$$$ on a media campaign designed to create a myth and protect him from questioning/justice. He enlists hundreds of trolls to go online to prop up this myth and smear his various enemies.

Meanwhile Frankie's career is derail, Betsy's mental capacity is questioned...... and she painted as "obsessed" because she returns a few phone calls?

Odd, just odd

 

[elizab]

Betsy, how might you describe your relationship with Juliet Macur?

She seems to praise your tenacity, but also almost depicts you as a bit of a loon at times.
(Although she never called you fat)

Chapter 25
[Just prior to Oprah]
Armstrong talked to Frankie for ten minutes. For another forty, he spoke to Betsy, only because she made him listen to her tirade against him.

I just wasn't always sure as to how Juliet was trying to portray you.

Thoughts?

I'm not there in the book yet so this is very surprising. I'm presuming that Juliet is writing lance's summation here. She pleaded with me to tell her about that phone call and I refused. I talked to lance for 22 minutes that initial call and there was no tirade. I cried and I laughed and was very calm; I didn't even raise my voice. I was hopeful at that time that he wanted to make things right.

There are inaccuracies in Juliet's book regarding us the most egregious being in relation to George. I don't know why she didn't include Frankie's rebuttal to George's outright lies - unless she thought the reader would see the inconsistencies on his/her own.

I'll go so far as to say that Juliet doesn't think I'm nuts nor did she ever. Obsessed with clearing my name? Absolutely. She was one of the first Americans to contact me. She had tons of information from the beginning and never did anything with it which I can't figure out. She says it wasn't proof enough; David Walsh considered the same evidence proof.

From where I'm at in the book, I don't think I come out as a loon at all. I'm sorry you see it that way. Given what I've been living through these past 15 years, it's incredible that I'm not only sane but have kept a damn good sense of humor through this all.

I can't speak for Betsy but I always find these claims odd.

Armstrong, and Livestrong, spends millions of $$$$ on a media campaign designed to create a myth and protect him from questioning/justice. He enlists hundreds of trolls to go online to prop up this myth and smear his various enemies.

Meanwhile Frankie's career is derail, Betsy's mental capacity is questioned...... and she painted as "obsessed" because she returns a few phone calls?

Odd, just odd

Amen!

 

[Berzin]

Too bad Frankie Andreu didn't dope long enough to buy Betsy a nice set of gleaming, phosphorescent horse teeth so she could do the "Ladies Who Lunch" talk show circuit alongside Kristen.

I can't believe this preening, entitled, botox-injected, donkey-faced, perpetual victim is now talking about religion.

Makes me want to vomit.

 

[Granville57]

Odd, just odd

Amen!

Not half as odd as you trying to vortex me. I suppose I’ll have to answer these in tandem. If I have time, I may even have to shed the Maserati mask and throw back on my Granville cape.

This is precisely how this little tree fort of ours gets shaken off its branches, it’s precisely what provokes ChrisE to come out with guns blazin’, and it’s precisely what forges an unholy alliance between BroDeal and BPC.

Allow me to break this down point by point, if I may.

she painted as "obsessed" because she returns a few phone calls?

Um, you just invented that...out of thin air. But if that’s today’s soundtrack, then let’s dance.

I was quoting Juilet Macur, directly from her book. Not once, on any of those pages, does she describe Betsy as “retuning a few phone calls.” Frankly, I think that’s a disservice to Betsy. She’s done a helluva lot more than just “return a few phone calls” and she has earned my respect because of it. She was relentless, by all accounts, and that has proven itself to be unique among the spineless “men” who stood by and either directly enabled, or passively allowed, Lance & Co. to bully all those who stood in their way. But we all know this, so trying to spin it any other way is, well...don’t try to vortex a vortician.

I always find these claims odd.

But nobody made any “claims” about anything. Unless you’re directing that at Macur? Mine isn’t an attack on Betsy. It’s a question, as I’m attempting to discern exactly what message Juliet was trying to convey.

Turning this:
“It was clear that on some days she spoke to reporters nearly nonstop because while we were speaking on her home phone, her cell would ring and ring as if she were a switchboard operator.”

Into:
“returning a few calls”
is, indeed, extremely odd. So I guess we’re in agreement then.

I'm not there in the book yet so this is very surprising. I'm presuming that Juliet is writing lance's summation here. She pleaded with me to tell her about that phone call and I refused. I talked to lance for 22 minutes that initial call and there was no tirade.

Thank you. This is exactly why I put these question to you. There are many, many things in the book that I question for accuracy. I have no reason to believe that Macur is deliberately distorting things, as I imagine that the job of sorting fact from fiction in this saga would be a difficult one for any reporter. I'm simply tying to sort these things out.

I'll go so far as to say that Juliet doesn't think I'm nuts nor did she ever.

OK, thanks again. That is what I was wondering. I genuinely wasn’t sure if she was trying to play both sides of the fence by, on one hand, depicting you as a trusted accomplice, as member of the Sister Hood of Traveling Pants (or something), while at the same time suggesting that you were a bit over-the-top, and to let the reader’s imagination decide.

I HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT! I WASN’T TAKING SIDES!

I was just curious if there was any history between you and Juliet that might further clarify this.

I don't think I come out as a loon at all. I'm sorry you see it that way.

No need to apologize, BECAUSE I DIDN’T SEE IT THAT WAY! Don't let Race Radio distort my position on this. I was simply asking if you think she meant to imply as much.

I'm not only sane but have kept a damn good sense of humor through this all.

Then did you miss my little emoticon? This one:

It was used (as they often are) to interject a bit of light humor into an otherwise very serious subject. The humor part being that maybe (I wasn’t really sure) Macur was tying to slip in the suggestion that you were a bit wacky. The serious subject, of course, would be the fact that a proven sociopath has been actively trying to destroy you family for several years now. Nothing funny about, whatsoever.

For what it’s worth (sorry, I’m generally not one for acronyms), I find it hysterical, in a very inspiring way, that both you and Race Radio presented Lance & Co. with something they probably never imagined in their worst nightmares. A stubborn persistence that would rival, and in the end surpass, their own. People have often tried to paint both you and RR as “obsessed” over Armstrong. But it is clear to anyone with half a brain that it was the Camp Lance that was “obsessed” with maintaining their deceitful and destructive ways, even in the face of mounting evidence that could only lead to one conclusion: the truth.

The more they continued to lie, the more the two of you pushed back. If that spanned decades, then Armstrong has only himself to blame for that. And you know what?

F’ck him.

Now, can we all share a beer or three together?

 

[DirtyWorks]

In most state and provincial jurisdictions in North America being 18, 19 or 21 is legal age. While I do not discourage any young athlete from getting advice from parents, if you are old enough to vote or fight for your country, you are old enough to know right from wrong,

Again, you are assuming the sports federation is promoting some sort of fair game. "Right" and "wrong" have a completely different meaning in this kind of environment. "Right" is winning and never testing positive. "Wrong" is testing positive.

I'd argue that's a very difficult environment in which a young person is required to make a decision that will probably end his/her elite career in the short term, but long term, be the right thing to do. So, any kind of discussion with a more mature person, maybe a parent, is very important.

 

[elizab]

Few thoughts:
Linda was not 'a poor single mom'. Yet, that is what still is perpetuated.
Lance's paternal family helped care for him early on. He still refused to see his 90 something grandmother who did nothing but love him?
Lance's adoptive father was not a TOTAL jerk. The man who adopted him and wanted to apologize to his son was shunned by the very same son who now wants the world to forgive him?
Linda was not nearly as involved in her son's early racing as she's said.
Lance screwed over his mentor JT when JT was being treated for cancer. Partying with a popular at the time rock band was more important.
Catlin's quote (295) "...and I maintain you can get away with stuff with everybody looking right at you."
Levi and George stonewalled USADA. No offense but the lack of education screams here. "you know...you don't have to talk to those people," Leipheimer said, meaning the federal agents (333).
George didn't return Novitzky's calls at first (328).
Tygart had trouble convincing GH and Levi to come forward (354) & when usada asked george if he would provide testimony against Armstrong he said, "Hell no." (356). Then he whines that usada took advantage of his relationship with armstrong (356).

I don't believe, however, that any of these guys were sick of doping - bar livingston - especially George. His transfusions and cocktails of drugs gave him the lifestyle he now has.
Also disconcerting is the Allen Lim stuff. Just doesn't make sense that she makes him out to be an anti-doper when he wasn't.

 

[elizab]

The more they continued to lie, the more the two of you pushed back. If that spanned decades, then Armstrong has only himself to blame for that. And you know what?

F’ck him.

Now, can we all share a beer or three together?

I know you're a good guy/gal. No one I've talked to who has read the book questions Juliet's take on me. It's interesting albeit surprising you had a different take. I do think Juliet played both sides at times. In the end, however, if lance thought he was playing her, he was played. He lost again. boo hoo hoo.
Cycle of Lies turned out to be a nightmare for him. If only he'd stop trying to do whatever he can to get back into the sport - it's a losing effort. Losing, buddy, L O S I N G

 

[Berzin]

Also disconcerting is the Allen Lim stuff. Just doesn't make sense that she makes him out to be an anti-doper when he wasn't.

Maybe it's because Juliet Macur didn't have any testimony to contradict Lim's role. She did say that Landis didn't speak much (or at all) with her for the book, and so the whole Floyd/Lim relationship is told from a very one-sided perspective.

It's not a stretch that Lim is looking to protect his future selling pig swill nutritional supplements to aging yuppie weekend warriors, so it didn't surprise me that he painted himself as an anti-doping crusader dealing with a mentally unstable client who wasn't paying him.

The copy of that check Floyd gave to Lim that was featured in the Cycling News article should have been in the book.

If only he'd stop trying to do whatever he can to get back into the sport - it's a losing effort.

He could very easily come back to the sport. All he has to do is sit down with Travis Tygart and tell the truth. But that's not in him.

I see him selling popcorn and cotton candy at the local rodeo in Austin before that happens.

 

[elizab]

Maybe it's because Juliet Macur didn't have any testimony to contradict Lim's role. She did say that Landis didn't speak much (or at all) with her for the book, and so the whole Floyd/Lim relationship is told from a very one-sided perspective.

It's not a stretch that Lim is looking to protect his future selling pig swill nutritional supplements to aging yuppie weekend warriors, so it didn't surprise me that he painted himself as an anti-doping crusader dealing with a mentally unstable client who wasn't paying him.

The copy of that check Floyd gave to Lim that was featured in the Cycling News article should have been in the book.

He could very easily come back to the sport. All he has to do is sit down with Travis Tygart and tell the truth. But that's not in him.

I see him selling popcorn and cotton candy at the local rodeo in Austin before that happens.

Juliet did email Floyd but didn't ask about Lim in those emails. Yes, the checks should've been in the book but Lim lied to her and she didn't counter it.

Lifetime means lifetime. Armstrong owes it to the sport and to USADA to sit down and talk without getting anything in return. However, I'd venture to say he's pretty irrelevant to usada. He just doesn't want that irrelevance becoming widespread.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Maybe it's because Juliet Macur didn't have any testimony to contradict Lim's role. She did say that Landis didn't speak much (or at all) with her for the book, and so the whole Floyd/Lim relationship is told from a very one-sided perspective.

It's not a stretch that Lim is looking to protect his future selling pig swill nutritional supplements to aging yuppie weekend warriors, so it didn't surprise me that he painted himself as an anti-doping crusader dealing with a mentally unstable client who wasn't paying him.

The copy of that check Floyd gave to Lim that was featured in the Cycling News article should have been in the book.



He could very easily come back to the sport. All he has to do is sit down with Travis Tygart and tell the truth. But that's not in him.

I see him selling popcorn and cotton candy at the local rodeo in Austin before that happens.

To the first bolded..yes I think this is exactly the outcome..Juliet just didn't have anything to report from those in the know about Lim's real life and what makes him tick. From things I have only heard around here nothing stacks up with what was in the book.

To the second…spot on! but I see that he is also driven to keep his profile high among pro cyclists..he needs them to affirm his reputation as a 'wizard' and guru of sports nutrition..

 

[kingjr]

However, I'd venture to say he's pretty irrelevant to usada. He just doesn't want that irrelevance becoming widespread.

That pretty much nails it i think.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Just to add a couple remarks about Lim..why he actually went to work with Armstrong when anyone including himself knew exactly the score with Lance's program??..and then crafts his explanation to fit the narrative that he wanted to see if he could 'clean up Armstrong's methods' or I forget exactly how it was worded in the book.
It was obvious that the offer of that much money must have made his 'ethics' take a back seat.

 

[spetsa]

Juliet just didn't have anything to report from those in the know about Lim's real life and what makes him tick. From things I have only heard around here nothing stacks up with what was in the book.

To the second…spot on! but I see that he is also driven to keep his profile high among pro cyclists..he needs them to affirm his reputation as a 'wizard' and guru of sports nutrition..

Just to add a couple remarks about Lim..why he actually went to work with Armstrong when anyone including himself knew exactly the score with Lance's program??..and then crafts his explanation to fit the narrative that he wanted to see if he could 'clean up Armstrong's methods' or I forget exactly how it was worded in the book.
It was obvious that the offer of that much money must have made his 'ethics' take a back seat.

Spot on. It makes me cringe to see certain people in town so closely connected to him. If I still raced, the last thing that I would want is to be seen getting a good ole road side blood check on the Peak to Peak by the good doctor.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Spot on. It makes me cringe to see certain people in town so closely connected to him. If I still raced, the last thing that I would want is to be seen getting a good ole road side blood check on the Peak to Peak by the good doctor.

yeppers