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Cyclingnews forum myth busters

May 6, 2009
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Let's get this underway, any myths in pro cycling you would like to break (and try to steer clear of a certain Texan).

Myth: Contador's a sudden Chrono phenomenon:

Fact: He's not. A lot of people have it set in their heads that if Contador wins a TT then ergo, he's a doper. Ok I'll grant you the latter, but Contador has been a TT rider from day dot. Not only was his first win as professional was in a Time Trial, but he was a Spanish u-23 Time Trial Champion. In fact he said at that time he wanted to improve his climbing, and as he did, his TT ability suffered. Now in the last couple of years he has gotten his old TT level back. He's no Cancellara, but it's not like he was the equivalent of Michael Rasmussen at the 2005 TdF where he lost several minutes in the final Chrono and then in 2007 he was passing people.
 
To be fair, Contador's first pro win was a mountain time trial.

Here's the profile

http://langteam.bikeworld.pl/tour/archiw/2003/angielska/8etap.htm

Winning a mountain time trial is not an indication of TT ability as seen by Basso winning at the Regio Tour

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/aug00/regio003b.shtml

As for being a TT rider from day dot he was 2 minutes slower than Vaitkus in the U23 worlds so even with a national title he was only in the top 1/3 internationally

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2002/worlds02/?id=u23mtt

Contador also lost the Tour of Romandie to Evans because of the TT, but i guess it was back when he couldn't balance his climbing with TT ;)

Fact is that it's rather likely that Contador is going to beat Vaitkus by 2 minutes in a TT head to head instead of it being the other way around 8 years ago :eek:
 
Myth: Lotto did nothing to help Cadel Evans, or didn't want to

Fact:
Lotto worked very hard to try to find helpers for Evans. Their attempts were spoilt a little by naïveté when it came to searching for Grand Tour riders, but they did bring in quite a lot of riders with the intention of building support for Evans:
In 2007 they brought in Dario Cioni, who had been 4th in the 2004 Giro and working as a domestique for Liquigas. They had Chris Horner, reborn as a rider at that point and who killed himself for Evans in the 2007 Tour (before continuing to kill himself to protect his GC spot in the hope of a good transfer, I know). They had Josep Jufre, a more than capable climber who will be helping drag Alberto Contador up mountains next month. They brought in Matty Lloyd, a useful if hardly élite climber (he's just won the Giro KOM, albeit in the same way as Fabian Wegmann won it). For 2008, they signed Yaroslav Popovych, 5th in the 2004 Giro and Maglia Rosa for four days, winner of the 2005 Volta a Catalunya, and a key domestique for Discovery Channel, 12th in the 2005 Tour and 8th in the 2007 Tour in support of winners. Cadel alienated him at Paris-Nice, and although Popo's 2008 performance was disappointing, he still finished 22nd at the Tour, which isn't shoddy. For 2009, they broke the bank trying to win Evans the Tour de France. They paid through the nose to get Bernhard Kohl, 3rd in the 2008 Tour and King of the Mountains, and to get Thomas Dekker, whose performances in the Ardennes and in early-season stage races in 2008 had been a revelation. Both turned out to be frauds. They paid out for Charlie Wegelius from Liquigas, and his performance was average; he did alright but was never meant to be the last helper remaining. Jürgen Van Den Broeck came 7th in the 2008 Giro (with two of the riders ahead of him since disgraced) and Francis De Greef was always up there in the following pack in the Vuelta mountains. Ready for 2010, they purchased Daniel Moreno from Caisse d'Epargne, who had been a key domestique finishing the Vuelta around 10th-15th for a couple of years, but before they could go any further Cuddles jumped ship.

Lotto tried very hard to help Cadel Evans, but a combination of bad luck, bad form and bad decisions prevented them from ever doing it as comprehensively as they would have liked.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Time to go old school ;)


The Myth:
The classics specialists of the early 80s expressed disdain for Hinault. Claiming he wasn't a "real rider" because he didn't ride Roubaix. They claimed he would never cut it in a real man's race.

Hinault responded by entering the race for the first and only time, winning, and teaching a lesson to the cocky classics men.

The Fact:
There was never such animosity, and Hinault in fact rode Roubaix a truckload of times. In one of those editions, he managed to finish with the front group eventually beating them in a sprint to win that edition.

The Myth:
Jacques Anquetil's last words to Raymond Poulidor before his death were "Raymond, my friend, it seems you will finish second to me once again"

The Fact:
Anquetil's last words to Poulidor, while on the phone, were that the medication was making him feel just as awful as he'd felt when they both climbed the Puy de Dôme at the 1964 Tour.

roundabout said:
To be fair, Contador's first pro win was a mountain time trial.

Here's the profile

http://langteam.bikeworld.pl/tour/archiw/2003/angielska/8etap.htm

Winning a mountain time trial is not an indication of TT ability as seen by Basso winning at the Regio Tour

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/aug00/regio003b.shtml

As for being a TT rider from day dot he was 2 minutes slower than Vaitkus in the U23 worlds so even with a national title he was only in the top 1/3 internationally

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2002/worlds02/?id=u23mtt

You're neglecting his other early career results. Flat TTs where he won or was otherwise very good.

roundabout said:
Contador also lost the Tour of Romandie to Evans because of the TT, but i guess it was back when he couldn't balance his climbing with TT ;)

That was the old Lausanne TT that the Tour de Romandie used to use. It featured heavy climbing.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Oh dear, here is a Red rag if I ever saw one

Here is another

Myth: Valverde has been hard done by

Fact: He is guilty of the crimes he has been charged with, if he had of done a Basso it would be all over by now
 
Mar 11, 2009
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isso reminded me of one:

The Myth
Tommy Simpson's last words before his death atop the Mont Ventoux were 'put me back on my bike.'

The Fact
Tommy was weaving all over the road and fell off. His mechanic rushed over to help him and Tommy told him to put him back on his bike, which is where the famous quote comes from. However, once he was up and going again, he shouted to his mechanic to come and strap in his pedals again, and his actual last words, heard as he rode off to his death, were "On, on, on..."
 
Feb 14, 2010
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craig1985 said:
Let's get this underway, any myths in pro cycling you would like to break (and try to steer clear of a certain Texan).

Myth: Contador's a sudden Chrono phenomenon:

Fact: He's not. A lot of people have it set in their heads that if Contador wins a TT then ergo, he's a doper. Ok I'll grant you the latter, but Contador has been a TT rider from day dot. Not only was his first win as professional was in a Time Trial, but he was a Spanish u-23 Time Trial Champion. In fact he said at that time he wanted to improve his climbing, and as he did, his TT ability suffered. Now in the last couple of years he has gotten his old TT level back. He's no Cancellara, but it's not like he was the equivalent of Michael Rasmussen at the 2005 TdF where he lost several minutes in the final Chrono and then in 2007 he was passing people.

He keeps working at it too. He said the smaller bike that he rode in the Prologue was the result of many conversations with Speciaized engineers, who did what he asked to come up with a bike suitable for lots of pace changes and for the way he swings the bike side to side when he stands up. There are more changes to be done before a bike is ready for the Tour. The guy is a professional and a perfectionist. His knees are almost up to his elbows and handlebars on this bike - way different than what he had with Trek a year ago.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Myth: Contador has some strategic weakness involving wind

There are two main instances I can think of. One was when Armstrong joined a Columbia break at the 2009 Tour de France when an attack as the course turned onto a crosswind allowed a split. Armstrong acted like he was a strategic mastermind afterward, but that attack was decided before the stage by Columbia staff. It wasn't anyone on a bike with vast experience making a spontaneous decision. A member of the Team Columbia staff drove the stage in advance (like Zabel does for Cavendish) and decided that would be the spot for the move of the day.

This year at Paris-Nice something similar occurred, this time with Caisse D'Epargne. At one point the course took a hard turn into a crosswind, and Caisse attacked immediately. It wasn't a master stroke of some wise rider on the team, it was planned prior to the stage, and the team knew all day that it would be their big move. Valverde talked about it afterward:

"It has been a very quick and very nervous, with many falls. We were very attentive, always forward. Our director Yvon Ledanois knew the end of the stage for coming to recognize the last few miles a few weeks ago. We said that in the absence of 23 kilometers of goal, only to change direction, the wind could have an important role and had to be on. "

Original Spanish:

“Ha sido una etapa muy rápida y muy nerviosa, con muchas caídas. Íbamos muy atentos, siempre delante. Nuestro director Yvon Ledanois conocía perfectamente el final de la etapa por haber venido a reconocer los últimos kilómetros hace unas semanas. Nos comentó que a falta de 23 kilómetros de meta, nada más cambiar de dirección, el viento podía tener un papel muy importante y que había que estar adelante.”

A lot of riders were caught off guard by both attacks, because their own staff didn't pinpoint the key spot on the stage.
 
issoisso said:
Time to go old school ;)


The Myth:
The classics specialists of the early 80s expressed disdain for Hinault. Claiming he wasn't a "real rider" because he didn't ride Roubaix. They claimed he would never cut it in a real man's race.

Hinault responded by entering the race for the first and only time, winning, and teaching a lesson to the cocky classics men.

The Fact:
There was never such animosity, and Hinault in fact rode Roubaix a truckload of times. In one of those editions, he managed to finish with the front group eventually beating them in a sprint to win that edition.

Ooh thanks!

I feel de-mythed.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Jamsque said:
isso reminded me of one:

The Myth
Tommy Simpson's last words before his death atop the Mont Ventoux were 'put me back on my bike.'

The Fact
Tommy was weaving all over the road and fell off. His mechanic rushed over to help him and Tommy told him to put him back on his bike, which is where the famous quote comes from. However, once he was up and going again, he shouted to his mechanic to come and strap in his pedals again, and his actual last words, heard as he rode off to his death, were "On, on, on..."

I heard they tried to sit him back on the bike when he was already dead - is that true?
 
Mar 11, 2009
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I don't think so. He fell off once, got put back on, rode a few hundred more metres, and fell of again for the last time. There doesn't seem to be much certainty on when he actually died, I have heard people allege that he was dead before he hit the ground the second time, but people have also claimed that he was alive when he was taken into the air ambulance and died in the helicopter.
 
Myth: Milan Sanremo is an easy sprinters' race

Facts: Merckx won it 7 times, no Cipressa at that time. He was not more sprinter than e.g. Cancellara. Milan Sanremo is a hard race because of the distance (you have to climb Poggio after 286km, you need to be fresh and clear-minded) and, as Merckx puts it, because the route is straight. He considers it harder than what the Ronde was in his time (with less climbs than today, understand). You could have a steady pace of 50kms on these long straight lines, which tire out the sprinters, while in the bending route of Flanders, the weaker riders could recover in the bends and than outsprint Merckx, like Leman did.


Myth: Thévenet would still have won the Tour de France, without the punch on the Puy de Dôme and Merckx got a raging hunger in Pra-Loup, coz' he did not eat in the descent of Allos (The French love to believe in that myth)


Facts: Marc Jeuniau (RTBF) followed Merckx in the huge descent of Allos where Merckx was blocked by the cars ahead of him (lost some 30 seconds) and he definitely ate. And at the finish he did not rush to food.

Only plausible explanation for his defeat was the side effect of the medicine he took from Dr Miserez in the Col des Champs (the Glifanan), consequence of the pain in the liver, consequence of the punch. He was still in pain, the next day, and again needed to take the Glifanan from Dr Miserez. The next days, despite the terrible fall in Valloire (fractured jaws, he could no longer eat nor bite anything solid), he kept gaining ground on Thévenet (who had to ally with Moser in the descents).

Myth: Anquetil and Poulidor had a fierce battle on the Puy de Dôme (another French myth


Facts: Jimenez and Bahamontes were way ahead. Poulidor had to attack from the beginning. He did not because he was not good that day, neither was Anquetil. Anquetil won the Tour de France thanks to Poulidor's puncture on his way to Toulouse.

Myth: Poulidor was an unlucky gentleman who never complaint about his bad luck (French myth, again)


Facts: "Poulidor is furious. He wants a wheel." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWTj6H2KKr4 (1.49)

Myth: Geminiani's team tactic placing Stablinski in front, gives Anquetil the win in Bordeaux-Paris

Facts: He paid Simpson for bringing Anquetil to Stab.

Myth: Amphetamines killed Simpson


Facts: Amphetamines never killed anybody and Simpson was badly treated after he collapsed (Pr. Decourt). Dr Dumas was no doctor but a kinesist (Tour de France best cycling organization, sure !!!). Simpson had been ill for a couple of days but needed to finish because it would give him a lucrative contract with Salvarani. Mrs Simpson got the life insurance that her husband promised her (wouldn't have had in case of suicide; use of amphetamines was considered suicide)

Myth: Antonin Magne chose Bobet to win Paris-Roubaix 1956 because he was the leader, De Bruyne was to be the winner the following year

Facts:
De Bruyne was the best rider in the race. He and the Mercier's constantly attacked Van Steenbergen because he was the faster. Rik didn't understand why De Bruyne did that while he was the strongest. In the end Bobet did not even thanked De Bruyne. It's true that he won the following year but he had moved to Carpano.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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It's not fun to debunk myths yourself :p
So this is a question.
In nearly every article on EPO they mention the same thing: A large number of Dutch (or Dutch and Belgian or Northern European) riders dying during the early EPO years. Never a number, never any name.
Now, I'm not doubting this is true, but I'm wondering who it were. Amateurs? Espoirs? Pro's? Sjaak uit de kerkstraat?

Does anyone have anything on this or is it a blown-up myth?

/edit: Another one.
I've read a lot about the way Indurain was prepared for his reign.(I mean gently building up the intensity and pressure of his racing throughout the years, not doping)
The one story that always comes up is that at one time he was placed too well in a race he wasn't supposed to finish to have him just pull out, so Echevarri(?) had his parents call him and tell him to come home because they needed help on their farm. Naturally he went home.
Again: True or to good to be true? :)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Myth - september 5th is the most important day on the cycling calender

i dont know any good myths :(
 
ak-zaaf said:
It's not fun to debunk myths yourself :p
So this is a question.
In nearly every article on EPO they mention the same thing: A large number of Dutch (or Dutch and Belgian or Northern European) riders dying during the early EPO years. Never a number, never any name.
Now, I'm not doubting this is true, but I'm wondering who it were. Amateurs? Espoirs? Pro's? Sjaak uit de kerkstraat?

Does anyone have anything on this or is it a blown-up myth?

The best info I can get is from this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/feb/16/cycling.cycling1

and also http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200406/cycling_epo_1.html

Although looking at it there were two waves - a group of riders in the late 1980s and another group c2003-4. Hope this helps.

Since January 2003, the following eight riders have died from heart attacks:

Denis Zanette (Italy)

Died January 11 2003, aged 32

Zanette, right, collapsed after visiting the dentist. Instantly linked to the use of the blood-booster EPO, which led to an outcry in Italy and demands for stricter drug controls.

Marco Ceriani (Italy)

Died May 5, aged 16

An elite amateur, Ceriani experienced a heart attack during a race, was admitted to hospital in a coma, and failed to recover consciousness.

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

Marco Rusconi (Italy)

Died November 14, aged 24

Rusconi was leaving the party of a friend last November when he collapsed and died in a shopping centre car park.

Jose Maria Jimenez (Spain)

Died December 6, aged 32

Died from a heart attack in a psychiatric hospital in Madrid. Had retired two years previously but consistently claimed a comeback was imminent.

Michel Zanoli (Netherlands)

Died December 29, aged 35

Zanoli, who retired in 1997, was 35 when he suffered a fatal heart attack.

Johan Sermon (Belgium)

Died February 15 2004, aged 21

Suffered an apparent heart failure in his sleep. Had reportedly gone to bed early to prepare for an eight-hour training ride.

Marco Pantani (Italy)

Died February 15 2004, aged 34

I found a reference to 18 Dutch and Belgian riders dying between 1987 and 1990 but no names. NYT claims 20 http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/21/opinion/21iht-edwheat_ed3_.html

Another reference:

1987-1990 A number of deaths of competitive Dutch and Belgian cyclists is linked to EPO use (see Gambrell/Lombardo, ch. 1; Rossi et al., ch. 1; Deacon/Gains, ch. 3). http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/Science/NSA15_1/Bibliography.html
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:

Thanks for al the info, but still nothing near an answer.

This quote from your first linked article pretty much sums it up.

Although there is no evidence directly linking the recent spate of fatalities to banned drug use, a similar cluster of deaths - mainly in the Low Countries - in the late 1980s and early 1990s is now held to have marked the arrival in cycling of the banned blood booster erythropoietin (EPO).

Who? Where? When? How old? What level?
I'm not asking about Italians here :)

The whole Zanoli thing is a different story.
 
A

Anonymous

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TeamSkyFans said:
Myth - september 5th is the most important day on the cycling calender

i dont know any good myths :(

Myth: Sports Illustrated ran an article last week saying that the Feds were calling Armstrong home for questioning.

I don't know any good myths either, but both of the ones we mentioned have something in common...
 
ak-zaaf said:
Thanks for al the info, but still nothing near an answer.

This quote from your first linked article pretty much sums it up.



Who? Where? When? How old? What level?
I'm not asking about Italians here :)

The whole Zanoli thing is a different story.

I've found some names:

Johannes Draaijer
Bert Oosterbosch
Connie Meijer
Geert Van de Walle
 
Mar 16, 2009
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TeamSkyFans said:
Myth - september 5th is the most important day on the cycling calender

i dont know any good myths :(

bosshog5th.jpg
 
Feb 27, 2010
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ak-zaaf said:
It's not fun to debunk myths yourself :p
So this is a question.
In nearly every article on EPO they mention the same thing: A large number of Dutch (or Dutch and Belgian or Northern European) riders dying during the early EPO years. Never a number, never any name.
Now, I'm not doubting this is true, but I'm wondering who it were. Amateurs? Espoirs? Pro's? Sjaak uit de kerkstraat?

Does anyone have anything on this or is it a blown-up myth?

I can't offer a comprehensive list of riders, but I do know there's actually quite some debate as to whether these deaths were actually caused by EPO.

Peter Janssen – former team doctor of Vacansoleil, Skil-Shimano and a plethora of other teams – has spoken about this several times.

In his book 'Lactate threshold training':

For years there has been an ongoing discussion about the 18 cyclists in The Netherlands and Belgium who died allegedly because of EPO use. Bert Oosterbosch, Connie Meyer, and Johannes Draayer are just a few names. But this scandalous media story is simply untrue. These tragic deaths all occurred during the late 1980s and early 1990s, a time when EPO was not used yet. EPO was introduced in the world of cycling in 1991-1992, and from then its use gradually increased, parallel to the tremendous supremacy of the Italian riders.

More recently, in an article on this very website:

Janssen argued that the death of some Belgian and Dutch cyclists at the end of the 1980s, that had been linked to the appearance of EPO in professional cycling, actually occurred before the introduction of the blood booster in high endurance sports. "Italy was the first country were EPO was used in abundance and they had no deaths from sudden heart failure. Also, the bulk of these deaths occurred before the market introduction of rh-EPO, and it is not true that medicines first appear in the peloton before becoming available in the pharmacy."

(...)

Instead, Janssen pointed the finger at other banned substances such as Oxyglobin and Hemopure, two oxygen-therapeutic products based on bovine hemoglobin, as well as medicines that were allowed in competition but that could have dangerous effects.
 

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