Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

[budegan]

Re: Re:

That's possible.
I figured it could also be Freeman sending out a warn signal "If you throw me under the bus, it won't be pretty". The fact he has all the dirt on staff and riders is his get out of jail card, and maybe even his future meal ticket.

Looking at Cope during the hearing, I got the sense he's getting paid really good money to shut up and play dumb. He seemed ok with having to play the role of buffoon.
50k is nothing for somebody like Brailsford or wiggins. It's a lot for a simple Jack like Cope.

Yeah, he was getting £95k a year for being part-time, an apartment plus unlimited travel expenses which he fiddled. He also got to hang out with dixkhead cyclists which these types of tools get off on. He was a drug user himself at Linda McCartney so the perfect drug mule for Wiggins.

Mate of mine who spent some time with Cope a few years back told me that he used to speak of the irony of racing for a BC team sponsored by Persil given that it was laundry detergent he'd put on his fingers to foil a urine test.

That being the case I wondered whether he was doing some massive trolling in the week when he spoke to laundry detergent being couriered to races by pro teams.

 

[thehog]

Brailsford who 3 week ago had no idea what cortisone was admits to receiving injections :lol:

 

[ferryman]

For a guy who didn't know what cortisone was Dave suddenly seems to have an amazing grasp of medical terms and the use of cortisone: “In the run up to and during the Beijing Olympic Games I suffered pain and acute swelling in my right knee joint,” Brailsford said. “Our team doctor at the time, Dr [Roger] Palfreeman, removed excess fluid from the joint and advised oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication. Subsequently I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had a partial meniscectomy in Sheffield Hospital." No real problem with that and I'm sure it could be proven but followed by:

"Whilst this is normally managed with oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, on one occasion a clinical decision was made to treat the symptoms within the joint with an intra-articular corticosteroid injection.." 2 questions arise from this last statement, who made this clinical decision and when and where (sorry that's 3).

 

[MikeS369]

Re: Re:

Previously, Digger had been talking about Sir Dave "dont even know what kenacort is" Brailsford using steroids to loose weight.
Now this from Freeman:

The doctor at the centre of the British Cycling drugs storm administered controversial medication not just to riders but to staff, family and friends, Sportsmail understands.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4276500/Cycling-doctor-gave-friends-family-banned-steroid.html

lipotropin is the best weight loss peptide. i dont think it is a peptide, its a hormone.

the catabolic steroids are not the weightloss elixir i tell ya

The two are not mutually exclusive, something can be either one, the other or both. Lipotropin is a polypeptide.

I'm sure you are correct but then I see things like this from Millar:

"Millar said while he himself had taken EPO and testosterone patches, Kenacort was the only substance he took “and three days later you looked different”.

He added: “I remember it was one of the reasons I took sleeping pills because Kenacort put you on this weird high. It’s quite scary because it’s catabolic so it’s eating into you. It felt destructive. It felt powerful.”

And Millar, who has now retired and works as a pundit, said while there were times he did “all the training” but his weight stayed the same, Kenacort resulted in immediate weight loss.

“If I took Kenacort, 1½-2kgs would drop off in like a week. And not only would the weight drop off I would feel stronger,” he told Telegraph journalist Tom Cary.

“But if you take Kenacort it’s not only going to make a sick person better, it’s going to make a sick person better than a healthy person. That’s a very grey area.”

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-...gins-took-cause-rapid-weight-loss-power-gain/

 

[The Hegelian]

Is Brailsford gonna survive this?

I think he's gone. If he had played it quieter and more behind the scenes, he'd possibly be able to shuffle around and let the axe fall on others. But he's been so visible; the public face + puppet master combined.

How can DB swim through the mud and not look dirty?

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

Good point. Hadn't considered that side. Would be a good bit of spin wouldn't it.
The guy at The Mail (Lawton is it?) has played the game well so far, I hope he thinks tactically and makes sure he doesn't get played now by a very experienced spin-team employed by Sky.

It would be slightly fortuitous. I can see the statement now:

"We did everything by the book, applied for and got the required TUEs and asked the doctors to sort out the treatment, but this one rogue doctor took it upon himself to order far more medication than was required and treat friends and work colleagues with it. He's admitted to treating X number of people Y times and look, that amounts to exactly the amount of triamcinolone ordered on top of what was needed for the TUEs..."

Yip, looks like that's the way they might be going with this. Freeman as patsy.
Probably be the cleverest tactic they've used so far. Machiavellian clever, not normal clever. They've employed one of Tony Blairs ex spin-doctors (aka expert lying manipulating bullying bastard) haven't they? Or did I make that up?
Lawton and the other decent journo's need to watch they don't become unwitting messengers of a damage limitation campaign.
And Freeman needs advice on strategy. I can just imagine Brailsford and spinmeister patting him on the back telling him it's all gonna be okay as Wiggins drives the bus towards them.
It's like Shakespeare on Tramadol.

They are using Alistair Campbell and the manner in which Blair and Campbell left Dr. David Kelly to die no doubt they'll hang Freeman.

Word has it, that Freeman has requested a 'in camera' meeting with the CMS due to the nature of his evidence.

Oh man! Alistair Campbell? That is bad. A real 'master of the dark arts' (aka manipulative c#nt). As you say, the way him and Blair treated Dr. David Kelly was sickening.

On an off-topic side note, I wonder if Campbell has changed at all in the intervening years. I've heard various radio interviews with him talking about his battle with major depression and alcoholism, maybe even suicidal temptations (my memory is fuzzy on that though). Most people change with those experiences.

 

[Dan2016]

For a guy who didn't know what cortisone was Dave suddenly seems to have an amazing grasp of medical terms and the use of cortisone: “In the run up to and during the Beijing Olympic Games I suffered pain and acute swelling in my right knee joint,” Brailsford said. “Our team doctor at the time, Dr [Roger] Palfreeman, removed excess fluid from the joint and advised oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication. Subsequently I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had a partial meniscectomy in Sheffield Hospital." No real problem with that and I'm sure it could be proven but followed by:

"Whilst this is normally managed with oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, on one occasion a clinical decision was made to treat the symptoms within the joint with an intra-articular corticosteroid injection.." 2 questions arise from this last statement, who made this clinical decision and when and where (sorry that's 3).

Ferryman, where is that quote from? Is it very recent? I'm assuming so, given the context of you posting it. In which case it's very strange indeed isn't it. The proficient use of medical language, when he was apparently clueless previously. Difficult to guess at the strategy being played here though without knowing when the quote is from.
I have the feeling we're going to see a lot of strategic maneuverings over the coming weeks, spin-doctor at the helm.

Edit: missing word

 

[TourOfSardinia]

For a guy who didn't know what cortisone was Dave suddenly seems to have an amazing grasp of medical terms and the use of cortisone: “In the run up to and during the Beijing Olympic Games I suffered pain and acute swelling in my right knee joint,” Brailsford said. “Our team doctor at the time, Dr [Roger] Palfreeman, removed excess fluid from the joint and advised oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication. Subsequently I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had a partial meniscectomy in Sheffield Hospital." No real problem with that and I'm sure it could be proven but followed by:

"Whilst this is normally managed with oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, on one occasion a clinical decision was made to treat the symptoms within the joint with an intra-articular corticosteroid injection.." 2 questions arise from this last statement, who made this clinical decision and when and where (sorry that's 3).

Ferryman, where is that quote from? Is it very recent? I'm assuming so, given the context of you posting it. In which it's very strange indeed isn't it. The proficient use of medical language, when he was apparently clueless previously. Difficult to guess at the strategy being played here though without knowing when the quote is from.
I have the feeling we're going to see a lot of strategic maneuverings over the coming weeks, spin-doctor at the helm.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2017/03/03/sir-dave-brailsford-admits-received-injection-jiffy-bag-doctor/

 

[Dan2016]

@TourOfSardinia, cheers for the link. So this is typical spin-doctor fair, use the media as the stage for the manipulations and control of the story.

I'm imagining the meeting:

Spin-doctor A.Campbell: ''Okay guys, Sapstead is f*cking us. The big stock of corticosteroids. It looks really bad...''

Brailsford interjects: ''She's a f*cking *** I wanna smash her in her f*cking....''

Campbell: ''Jesus Dave, calm down for christ sake. And don't interupt me when I'm talking. Here's what we're gonna do. Get the message out to the c*nts at the Daily Mail that doc Freeman was dishing this drug out to everyone like f*cking sweeties. Do it anonymously. It has to be anonymous. DO NOT f*ck that up. They'll lap it up and publish it. Now we have options. This story will force Freeman's hand. If he freaks out and says he's gonna burn the whole f*cking thing down then bring him into the fold, massive support. Dave, you'll go to the Telegraph and give details of how you were treated with this corticosteroid by EXPERT Freeman. Here's the script. Memorize it. The medical language is important. Now we have the story out there that Freeman is an expert and used these drugs responsibly to treat you for serious conditions. We're neutralizing Sapstead's testimony. We're neutralizing Freeman and the risk of him spilling the beans. And Dave, no more of that f*cking flappy-hand shite, get control of yourself for christ sake.''.

Brailsford: ''Okay no more flappy-hands got it. But what happens after the Daily Mail story if Freeman doesn't say much, doesn't freak out and makes it obvious he's not gonna grass, not gonna tell the Select Committee the truth?''

Campbell: ''Well in that scenario you don't say a thing. No Telegraph story. He's finished. He's the patsy, the rogue doctor that f*cked up''.

Brailsford: ''So the Daily Mail story is important?''

Campbell: ''Yes you f*cking idiot. We have to force Freeman's hand and play it from there. Got it?''

Brailsford: ''Yeah okay got it. What about marginal gains? Can I still talk about marginal gains?''...

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...allout-from-Lance-Armstrong-drug-scandal.html
"If you fire an employee who has crossed any of the lines you have established as absolute values, you will purchase five years of compliance by the rest of the employees."
Written in July 2013 - the clock is ticking ...

 

[blackcat]

For a guy who didn't know what cortisone was Dave suddenly seems to have an amazing grasp of medical terms and the use of cortisone: “In the run up to and during the Beijing Olympic Games I suffered pain and acute swelling in my right knee joint,” Brailsford said. “Our team doctor at the time, Dr [Roger] Palfreeman, removed excess fluid from the joint and advised oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication. Subsequently I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus and had a partial meniscectomy in Sheffield Hospital." No real problem with that and I'm sure it could be proven but followed by:

"Whilst this is normally managed with oral non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, on one occasion a clinical decision was made to treat the symptoms within the joint with an intra-articular corticosteroid injection.." 2 questions arise from this last statement, who made this clinical decision and when and where (sorry that's 3).

Ferryman, where is that quote from? Is it very recent? I'm assuming so, given the context of you posting it. In which case it's very strange indeed isn't it. The proficient use of medical language, when he was apparently clueless previously. Difficult to guess at the strategy being played here though without knowing when the quote is from.
I have the feeling we're going to see a lot of strategic maneuverings over the coming weeks, spin-doctor at the helm.
Edit: missing word

sounds like Brailsford's cant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cant_(language)

A cant (or cryptolect) is the jargon or argot of a group, often employed to exclude or mislead people outside the group.[1]

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Is Brailsford gonna survive this?

I think he's gone. If he had played it quieter and more behind the scenes, he'd possibly be able to shuffle around and let the axe fall on others. But he's been so visible; the public face + puppet master combined.

How can DB swim through the mud and not look dirty?

he survives in the hypothetical vacuum that the Worldtour and professional cycling is. But this hypothetical vacuum does not exist.

He will fall because the parent company, of News Ltd and Murdoch, cannot afford bad PR when they are going before the EU for the approval for their bid for total control of Sky Broadcasting.

Is this a false dichotomy, why am I conflating News Ltd and Sky Broadcasting, and Sky Broadcasting merely sponsor a cycling team, so, practically speaking News Ltd should have their hands clean in the Brailsford mess.

yes, but this is the real world. And Murdoch still has penance to pay for News Ltd phone hacking, and everyone knows Team Sky was James Murdoch's baby.

So, my thesis is correct. Depending on the reverberations with the EU in Brussels (I dont know how Brexit influences this), and Brussels should be insulated to an extent over News Ltd' phone hacking in the UK, so it will again be the UK Theresa May administration who calls this.

So, even tho Brailsford is getting grilled on the fluemucil, or the kenalog, his long game should be keeping the Media assets and control committee that will be determining News Ltd's fate taking complete control over Sky Broadcasting, and keeping everything Rupert has touched 'respectable'. Jerry Hall included.

cycling does not matter. The perception of the Murdochs, and News, and Sky Broadcasting, that matters.

and no, I have not conflated trivial matters. I am saying, this is big boys, not cycling races and some small time doping.

 

[yaco]

So as I predicted yesterday Dr Freeman is being thrown under the bus - Sky trying to influence UKAD to charge Dr Freeman with trafficking prohibited substances to friends and staff.

 

[ontheroad]

Dave Brailsford is a compulsive liar. He has taken the general public for fools since day one and even at this stage he is defiant until the very end. I'm losing count with the number of incidences told in this jiffy bag story since the start. Freeman in front of the select hearing committee is an absolute must at this stage and it's just a case of whether the team survive until then. Death by a thousand cuts is a PR disaster for them given the amount of budget that they have invested in hiring PR consultants and spin doctors. There is only so much spinning you can do when one lie leads to two lies, leads to four lies etc.

 

[Franklin]

This will go nowhere. The "Anglo-Saxon" model is clean, remember. The only systematic dopers are Spanish, Italians or Russians.

Less amusing: If the lid is blown of Sky/BC it will tarnish London 2012. No f*ing way that that's going to happen. Nobody wants research in that Medal bonanza. It would spill over to other sports as well.

Freeman gets a fat cheque, will fall on his sword and it's over.

 

[meat puppet]

Re:

This will go nowhere. The "Anglo-Saxon" model is clean, remember. The only systematic dopers are Spanish, Italians or Russians.

Less amusing: If the lid is blown of Sky/BC it will tarnish London 2012. No f*ing way that that's going to happen. Nobody wants research in that Medal bonanza. It would spill over to other sports as well.

Exactly, well put. Legacy > reality.

 

[thehog]

Re:

This will go nowhere. The "Anglo-Saxon" model is clean, remember. The only systematic dopers are Spanish, Italians or Russians.

Less amusing: If the lid is blown of Sky/BC it will tarnish London 2012. No f*ing way that that's going to happen. Nobody wants research in that Medal bonanza. It would spill over to other sports as well.

Freeman gets a fat cheque, will fall on his sword and it's over.

Very true, just saw that UKAD are unlikely to allow Mo Farah's samples to be retested.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Mate of mine who spent some time with Cope a few years back told me that he used to speak of the irony of racing for a BC team sponsored by Persil given that it was laundry detergent he'd put on his fingers to foil a urine test.

That being the case I wondered whether he was doing some massive trolling in the week when he spoke to laundry detergent being couriered to races by pro teams.

brilliant anecdote.

 

[Cake]

Re: Re:

Good point. Hadn't considered that side. Would be a good bit of spin wouldn't it.
The guy at The Mail (Lawton is it?) has played the game well so far, I hope he thinks tactically and makes sure he doesn't get played now by a very experienced spin-team employed by Sky.

It would be slightly fortuitous. I can see the statement now:

"We did everything by the book, applied for and got the required TUEs and asked the doctors to sort out the treatment, but this one rogue doctor took it upon himself to order far more medication than was required and treat friends and work colleagues with it. He's admitted to treating X number of people Y times and look, that amounts to exactly the amount of triamcinolone ordered on top of what was needed for the TUEs..."

On an off-topic side note, I wonder if Campbell has changed at all in the intervening years. I've heard various radio interviews with him talking about his battle with major depression and alcoholism, maybe even suicidal temptations (my memory is fuzzy on that though). Most people change with those experiences.

That was in the late 80s early 90s, not post-Kelly.

 

[Cake]

Re: Re:

Very true, just saw that UKAD are unlikely to allow Mo Farah's samples to be retested.

If they did refuse, is there a process by which USADA could appeal to anyone? E.g. Court of Arbitration in Sport?

 

[Benotti69]

Why is cycling press not calling for Brailsford to resign?

He told them he never heard pf Trimacoline or Kenacort and didn't know what they were.

Now trying to tell us he had a knee problem and got an injection of it.

Compulsive liar.

If you are going to lie about one thing, why not lie about everything!!!!

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Why is cycling press not calling for Brailsford to resign?

He told them he never heard pf Trimacoline or Kenacort and didn't know what they were.

Now trying to tell us he had a knee problem and got an injection of it.

Compulsive liar.

If you are going to lie about one thing, why not lie about everything!!!!

Because they're all worried that if he weathers the storm he won't give access to the writers that called for his resignation. I agree, it's perplexing that his job seems rock steady at this point.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Why is cycling press not calling for Brailsford to resign?

He told them he never heard pf Trimacoline or Kenacort and didn't know what they were.

Now trying to tell us he had a knee problem and got an injection of it.

Compulsive liar.

If you are going to lie about one thing, why not lie about everything!!!!

Because they're all worried that if he weathers the storm he won't give access to the writers that called for his resignation. I agree, it's perplexing that his job seems rock steady at this point.

Not many cycling journos(or sport) with a spine, apparently not a necessary requirement for the job, i use job in the loosest terms

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Re:

Why is cycling press not calling for Brailsford to resign?

He told them he never heard pf Trimacoline or Kenacort and didn't know what they were.

Now trying to tell us he had a knee problem and got an injection of it.

Compulsive liar.

If you are going to lie about one thing, why not lie about everything!!!!

Because they're all worried that if he weathers the storm he won't give access to the writers that called for his resignation. I agree, it's perplexing that his job seems rock steady at this point.

Not many cycling journos(or sport) with a spine, apparently not a necessary requirement for the job, i use job in the loosest terms

The thing that's both astonishing and at the same time worrying is how Brailsfraud 'normalises' behaviour that is far from normal. Ken Matheson I think alluded to the ego of DB. He has this manipulative aura which seems to know no bounds.

It's not the intimidatory aura of Armstrong but I dunno people seem so scared to call him out to his face.

I think it's the perception that he is smart perhaps or he is perceived to be this merlin the magician type character people are in awe of him. I think he is a smart arse liar who has tried to clever too many times and the public have simply had enough. Its made his position 100 times worse in dealing with this situation and when you look at interviews he has given they border on delusional.

I agree he is a liar and manipulator of people and facts and should be called on it.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/de-jongh-i-cant-see-brailsford-lasting-at-team-sky/
Steven De Jongh says it's time to go ...
"I worked there and they had a system with Dropbox where everything was monitored. It must still be there."
Mmm ... unless someone's deleted it all?