Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

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Aug 12, 2009
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samhocking said:
'Presumed' AAFs are not new to Froome, that is how it works because that is how WADA describe the AAF until otherwise. That is even the wording of the rule:

The presence in urine of salbutamol in excess of 1000ng/ml or formoterol in excess of 40ng/ml is presumed not to be an intended therapeutic use of the substance and will be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF)

It only becomes a bona fide AAF when WADA do not presume it to be therapeutic use, the ADRV process then begins.

sam I think you are SDB...it's that ability to say black is white...with a straight face :)

I've bolded your own cited quote just in case you're not getting it...and especially underlined the important word
 
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We are back to 'full force' Sky now. All pretence at contrition or a more humble attitude are gone. They have emerged triumphant, unrepentant and more forthright and condescending than ever, probably almost certain now that nothing can stop them. Marginal gains returned with the BBC article (seriously how many times could Hayles say "no other team does this"?), SBD is back front and centre with his never-ending management speak, Froome is the saintly victim who did us all a service by exposing defective testing, and the full fanfare media show is back.

All that's left now is the stroll around France to collect Froome's 5th maillot jaune and 4th consecutive GT win and confirm his immortality as one of the greatest.
 
Mar 13, 2013
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You really don't understand that rule or how anti-doping works at the AAF stage do you. The 'presumption' of the urine level being above threshold is considered to be an AAF. If WADA 'knew' it wasn't theraputic they wouldn't be presuming anything would they. It would be worded that it 'is' considered an AAF. Please, WADA explain it like this for a reason and it's to protect innocent athletes from potential false positives.

Vaughters explained it all in great detail yesterday and he wasn't exonerating or supporting Froome and Sky whatsoever in that interview, the opposite in fact, but he recognises the importance of that 'presumed' meaning as being fundamental to the anti-doping AAF process. I really suggest anyone listen to his interview because he is the only person i've heard that has actually explained and articulated in full, how the AAF to ADRV process works 'in reality' and why it works like that in reality. Begins at 22:43 in the audio below:

https://audioboom.com/posts/6920704-a-pre-tour-de-france-ramble-part-two
 
Aug 12, 2009
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samhocking said:
You really don't understand that rule or how anti-doping works at the AAF stage do you. The 'presumption' of the urine level being above threshold is considered to be an AAF. If WADA 'knew' it wasn't theraputic they wouldn't be presuming anything would they. It would be worded that it 'is' considered an AAF. Please, WADA explain it like this for a reason and it's to protect innocent athletes from potential false positives.

Vaughters explained it all in great detail yesterday and he wasn't exonerating or supporting Froome and Sky whatsoever in that interview, the opposite in fact, but he recognises the importance of that 'presumed' meaning as being fundamental to the anti-doping AAF process. I really suggest anyone listen to his interview because he is the only person i've heard that has actually explained and articulated in full, how the AAF to ADRV process works 'in reality' and why it works like that in reality. Begins at 22:43 in the audio below:

https://audioboom.com/posts/6920704-a-pre-tour-de-france-ramble-part-two

I'm afriad it's you who doesn't understand

The 'presumed' with which SKY now wish to rewrite history with comes before the AAF...it triggers the AAF...the AAF then can be challenged through the process (the main part of which of course was neatly sidestepped by froome)...which is what happened...the AAF was challenged...

the 'presumed' is associated with non-theraputic use...it's not associated with the AAF...the presumption leads to an AAF...not a presumed AAF. You can, if you wish, describe it that way...but that would be independent of the language of the rules..............the rules say it is an AAF

it is written in black and white in your own cited quote

I'll emphasise again "will"

froome won...there is no need for the spin...we can see what happened
 
Aug 12, 2009
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You know I like my analogies :)

Judge: You have been charged with murder...how do you plead?

Defendent: you mean 'presumed' murder your Honour

Judge: No, I mean murder...the murder was real

Defendent: But surely I am innocent until proven guilty

Judge: Correct...proven guilty or innocent of murder...not presumed murder.........how do you plead?

Defendent: I will plead not guilty of presumed murder your Honour

Judge: That is not the charge......charge this man with contempt of Court...now how do you plead to the actual charge?

;) ;)
 
Mar 13, 2013
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This is how the process works, described by someone who probably knows more about than you or I and is neutral to liking or not liking Sky.

"Well it's a complex reaction. On one hand I would say this is a really good lesson for the fans, for the media, for writers, for everyone involved in cycling to take the process of justice and anti doping a little bit more seriously and stop being so knee jerk reaction to an initial test or an initial rumor or whatever and just automatically jumping to conclusions."

"What everyone has to fundamentally understand is that this case never even got to the point of being a case. The UCI and WADA were determining whether or not they even wanted to pursue this and whether or not this test was a valid adverse analytical finding to the point where they might try to pursue ADRV. They decided that they weren't going to pursue it. With almost any other rider, i'll just say with any other rider, none of what happened would have ever been public. It would have never, never have been public because the process in deciding whether or not we're going to pursue an AAF is normally a completely confidential process because the rider is presumed innocent at first and the rider is given certain rights of privacy until there's enough facts to try and pursue an ADRV. That was completely b******ized by somebody leaking this to the press and whoever that person is, and I hope they're listening to this, what you did was horrible! To leak that out., Now if he had tested positive, if it was a confirmed AAF and if it became a confirmed ADRV , should that be public and should it be published? Absolutely, but not at the point at which it was leaked to the press that it was. I can't imagine this person, whoever it is who works for the UC I or someone around there and and the fact they've leaked to the press it's just, and I don't know what their motivation, it's just vindictive and I don't know what their motivation was, but it really makes me angry because it's it's not just Chris Froome, that could've happened to anyone."

"That said, I think the whole situation was made worse by Team Sky's attitude toward it and the management and the history of the organization. I think people view them very skeptically, they don't view them as being credible at all. Clearly with a whole Shane Sutton, Brad Wiggins, Richard Freeman jiffy bag disaster, it showed that they're unwilling to be an honest as an organization, that you know in order to protect their theoretical zero tolerance policy that they're basically willing to to do anything to just keep a level of opaqueness in front of of what's really going on and I think that when this situation hit from the fact that there just really isn't any credibility there and the fact that they aren't transparent whatsoever, turns the public against them in a really nasty way and in some ways I almost feel that Froome, well I don't want to say it was an unfortunate victim but he definitely, he caught you know the sharp edge of the of the sword because of all the history of Sky. I don't have a lot of Sympathy you know towards the fact that they would think that it was given such a negative reaction he was given such a negative reaction because of the way they treated the media, because of the way they're treated fans, because of the very arrogant attitude that have to rest of cycling. To me there's not a lot of sympathy there."

"But again going back to my first point. I do you know have sympathy for not just for Chris Froome, but any athlete that would have been at that stage in the anti doping process and to have a preliminary finding released to public and to be judged guilty as a result of that, that's just wrong. We don't, we don't do that in the rest of society. We don't do that in you know a modern society. I mean the last 300 years sort of post Magna Carta, post-declaration of independence, post constitution, post bill of rights western society - we don't do that! And in this sport, we just chose to essentially, you know, eat the guy alive, not only before even declared guilty, but before he'd even been officially charged with anything. So this is, this is the fundamental reason that confidentiality and privacy in the initial phases of these investigations exists, because anti doping science isn't simple. Anti doping adjudication isn't simple. For some reason, the impression the public has is that it's sort of a binary it's black or it's white, it's positive or negative and that is not the way anti doping science works and the people who who spent countless hours in the lab who are actually you know a lot of people involved and not doing it for the money. They're very passionate about fairness and support and they're working as scientists you know endless hours because they're passionate about protecting the rights of clean athletes. That said it's not simple those laboratory procedures. It's very difficult to get an exact answer that is 100 percent defensible...."

Listen to the rest on Cycling Podcast
 
Jun 20, 2015
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Vaughters gave Sky a big whack - Though it won't be enough for some - The bottom line is the UCI have brought the sport into disrepute - It's a black mark against Lappartient's name.
 
Sep 16, 2010
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yaco said:
Vaughters gave Sky a big whack - Though it won't be enough for some - The bottom line is the UCI have brought the sport into disrepute - It's a black mark against Lappartient's name.
And I'm sure everyone will believe JV, even knowing his personal animus for the UCI
 
Mar 13, 2013
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I would say the Sky Wiggins purchase from him means he's a little exaggerated on the Sky opinion perhaps, but on the UCI side, i'm pretty sure he probably knows, not necessarily who leaked it, but is aware of the likely direction it would have come from. Within the peloton there might be rumour who it was anyway. I still think it's a member of another NGB perhaps told in confidence for tactical persuasion in the UCI election and it ended up being used for vindication of something or simply to hurt Team Sky operationally and reputationally perhaps. I mean it now seems clear Shane Sutton leaked the jiffy bag over not getting a Range Rover from Wiggins, so I could be totally wrong and this cam within Sky again, but it feels a bit different with Froome being such an early otherwise private stage of an AAF development.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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samhocking said:
This is how the process works, described by someone who probably knows more about than you or I and is neutral to liking or not liking Sky.

"Well it's a complex reaction. On one hand I would say this is a really good lesson for the fans, for the media, for writers, for everyone involved in cycling to take the process of justice and anti doping a little bit more seriously and stop being so knee jerk reaction to an initial test or an initial rumor or whatever and just automatically jumping to conclusions."

"What everyone has to fundamentally understand is that this case never even got to the point of being a case. The UCI and WADA were determining whether or not they even wanted to pursue this and whether or not this test was a valid adverse analytical finding to the point where they might try to pursue ADRV. They decided that they weren't going to pursue it. With almost any other rider, i'll just say with any other rider, none of what happened would have ever been public. It would have never, never have been public because the process in deciding whether or not we're going to pursue an AAF is normally a completely confidential process because the rider is presumed innocent at first and the rider is given certain rights of privacy until there's enough facts to try and pursue an ADRV. That was completely b******ized by somebody leaking this to the press and whoever that person is, and I hope they're listening to this, what you did was horrible! To leak that out., Now if he had tested positive, if it was a confirmed AAF and if it became a confirmed ADRV , should that be public and should it be published? Absolutely, but not at the point at which it was leaked to the press that it was. I can't imagine this person, whoever it is who works for the UC I or someone around there and and the fact they've leaked to the press it's just, and I don't know what their motivation, it's just vindictive and I don't know what their motivation was, but it really makes me angry because it's it's not just Chris Froome, that could've happened to anyone."

"That said, I think the whole situation was made worse by Team Sky's attitude toward it and the management and the history of the organization. I think people view them very skeptically, they don't view them as being credible at all. Clearly with a whole Shane Sutton, Brad Wiggins, Richard Freeman jiffy bag disaster, it showed that they're unwilling to be an honest as an organization, that you know in order to protect their theoretical zero tolerance policy that they're basically willing to to do anything to just keep a level of opaqueness in front of of what's really going on and I think that when this situation hit from the fact that there just really isn't any credibility there and the fact that they aren't transparent whatsoever, turns the public against them in a really nasty way and in some ways I almost feel that Froome, well I don't want to say it was an unfortunate victim but he definitely, he caught you know the sharp edge of the of the sword because of all the history of Sky. I don't have a lot of Sympathy you know towards the fact that they would think that it was given such a negative reaction he was given such a negative reaction because of the way they treated the media, because of the way they're treated fans, because of the very arrogant attitude that have to rest of cycling. To me there's not a lot of sympathy there."

"But again going back to my first point. I do you know have sympathy for not just for Chris Froome, but any athlete that would have been at that stage in the anti doping process and to have a preliminary finding released to public and to be judged guilty as a result of that, that's just wrong. We don't, we don't do that in the rest of society. We don't do that in you know a modern society. I mean the last 300 years sort of post Magna Carta, post-declaration of independence, post constitution, post bill of rights western society - we don't do that! And in this sport, we just chose to essentially, you know, eat the guy alive, not only before even declared guilty, but before he'd even been officially charged with anything. So this is, this is the fundamental reason that confidentiality and privacy in the initial phases of these investigations exists, because anti doping science isn't simple. Anti doping adjudication isn't simple. For some reason, the impression the public has is that it's sort of a binary it's black or it's white, it's positive or negative and that is not the way anti doping science works and the people who who spent countless hours in the lab who are actually you know a lot of people involved and not doing it for the money. They're very passionate about fairness and support and they're working as scientists you know endless hours because they're passionate about protecting the rights of clean athletes. That said it's not simple those laboratory procedures. It's very difficult to get an exact answer that is 100 percent defensible...."

Listen to the rest on Cycling Podcast

Vaughters quite rightly confirms it as an AAF...the process they were going through was to determine if they were going to pursue that to ADRV...he then confuses the matter by talking about "a postive"..

so if you don't mind I'll stick to what the rules actually say
 
Mar 13, 2013
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It's simply not the case. You are definitely wrong on this.
We've experienced the leaking of the presumed AAF at the stage Froome is notified it is a 'presumed' excess of Salbutomol above urine threshold and asks the athlete for explanation of why that is. Vaughters describes it that way, Brailsford and WADA.

Froome then responds with his reasoning. UCI considers it and decides if the presumed AAF now constitutes a theraputic or non-theraputic adverse analytsical finding. If they decide it is a non-theraputic AAF given Froomes response, Froome is issued with a chance to take the Pharmo test to disprove it. That outcome of the pharmo test result then decides if the AAF is indeed considered atheraputic or non therapeutic, in which case he is issued with ADRV proceedings. Both 'presume' and 'considered' are not superfluous words in the rules, they are there for this very reason.

Froome didn't get to the Pharmo test, so he clearly didn't get passed the presumed AAF. The WADA Anti-doping rule only lists what the ADRV is, not what the rules of the AAF procedure are. As shame as everyone would understand the whole process much more clearly, but obviously the WADA Prohibited list is telling you what constitutes an ADRV, not what happens when you AAF.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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samhocking said:
It's simply not the case. You are definitely wrong on this.
We've experienced the leaking of the presumed AAF at the stage Froome is notified it is a 'presumed' excess of Salbutomol above urine threshold and asks the athlete for explanation of why that is. Vaughters describes it that way, Brailsford and WADA.

Froome then responds with his reasoning. UCI reads it and decides if the presumed AAF constitutes a theraputic or non-theraputic adverse analytsical finding. If they decide it is non-theraputic, then Froome is issued with a chance to take the Pharmo test to disprove it. That pharmo test result then decides if the AAF is indeed an ADRV.

Froome didn't get to the Pharmo test, so he clearly didn't get passed the presumed AAF. The WADA Anti-doping rule only lists what the ADRV is, not what the rules of the AAF procedure is. As shame as everyone would understand the whole process much more clearly, but obviously the WADA Prohibited list is telling you what constitutes an ADRV, not what happens when you AAF.

its funny you getting stuck on this...

he didn't take the test because his lawyers argued it could never replicate the exact set of circumstances prevailing on the day of the test. Unless you live in a lab, that is pretty much the same for anybody...so Froome skipped the test (based on WADA's inability to stand behind its own rules, or alternatively, proving very willing to take a very wide reading of them. If he had undertaken the (previously required) test...some of the reasons he has given could have been given an empirical basis rather than a theoretical one....of course, he didn't want to do that, we can only presume as it would make the job more difficult - if it would have helped he would have done it....

He has an AAF...that becomes an ADRV for a specificed substance should he fail the test he never did. As we know he didn't do the test and then presented a myriad of reasons as to why the reading was high....that reversed the AAF. But it was an AAF that was reversed. As I say if it makes you feel better call it presumed AAF........the rules call it an AAF. Mind you, after this case that section of WADA's rules will need rewritten anyway...........

It is a sad day for sports...as despite there being some issues with the test...the breadth for getting through is so wide that all it does is open the door for teams and riders wishing to pursue grey areas

now then, can we think of a team that likes grey areas?????????? :D
 
Aug 12, 2009
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To help further, here's the press release from the UCI in December....its a short paragraph and so you shouldn't need to perform a search for the word "presumed"

"The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms that British rider Christopher Froome was notified of an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) of Salbutamol in excess of 1000ng/ml (*) in a sample collected during the Vuelta a España on 7 September 2017. The rider was notified of the AAF on 20 September 2017."

You're welcome.... ;)
 
Jun 21, 2012
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gillan1969 said:
To help further, here's the press release from the UCI in December....its a short paragraph and so you shouldn't need to perform a search for the word "presumed"

"The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms that British rider Christopher Froome was notified of an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) of Salbutamol in excess of 1000ng/ml (*) in a sample collected during the Vuelta a España on 7 September 2017. The rider was notified of the AAF on 20 September 2017."

You're welcome.... ;)

Wrong!
regards,
Ham Socking
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Brian Butterfield said:
gillan1969 said:
To help further, here's the press release from the UCI in December....its a short paragraph and so you shouldn't need to perform a search for the word "presumed"

"The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) confirms that British rider Christopher Froome was notified of an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) of Salbutamol in excess of 1000ng/ml (*) in a sample collected during the Vuelta a España on 7 September 2017. The rider was notified of the AAF on 20 September 2017."

You're welcome.... ;)

Wrong!
regards,
Ham Socking

:D
 
Oct 10, 2012
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AAF, 'presumed' AAF what's the difference, I think you are getting too bogged down in semantics.

The bottom line is that he was far and beyond the permitted threshold for Salbutomol. It was a victory for expensive lawyers, I would like to see Morgan's invoice to Sky/Froome for services rendered (whichever of them foots the bill but I suspect it will be the team).
 
Mar 13, 2013
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You simply don't appreciate the fact an AAF when it is first notified to the athlete is neither a confirmed non-therapeutic AAF or a confirmed therapeutic AAF, it is simply an AAF that presumes non-therapeutic use might have occurred and therefore requires further athlete explanation.

If athlete explanation for the AAF cause is believed to not constitute an ADRV, the AAF is therapeutic AAF and progresses no further, nobody ever hears anything about these AAFs. This is how far Froomes' 'case' reached.

If athlete explanation for the AAF cause is NOT believed, the athlete is then asked for further explanation if required and/or to take the pharmo test to prove the AAF is indeed from therapeutic use. The outcome of this stage then is considered again and if pharmo test failed and/or no valid explanation the athlete is then official issued an AAF (confirmed AAF) for what is considered an ADRV and at this point the UCI make the AAF public and the team has to suspend the rider.
 
Sep 16, 2010
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samhocking said:
You simply don't appreciate the fact an AAF when it is first notified to the athlete is neither a confirmed non-therapeutic AAF or a confirmed therapeutic AAF, it is simply an AAF that presumes non-therapeutic use might have occurred and therefore requires further athlete explanation.
You really are confused by this whole TUE thing. Or are perfectly happy to abuse this whole TUE thing to try and cause confusion...
 
Aug 12, 2009
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samhocking said:
You simply don't appreciate the fact an AAF when it is first notified to the athlete is neither a confirmed non-therapeutic AAF or a confirmed therapeutic AAF, it is simply an AAF that presumes non-therapeutic use might have occurred and therefore requires further athlete explanation.

If athlete explanation for the AAF cause is believed to not constitute an ADRV, the AAF is therapeutic AAF and progresses no further, nobody ever hears anything about these AAFs. This is how far Froomes' 'case' reached.

If athlete explanation for the AAF cause is NOT believed the, athlete is the asked for further explanation if required and/or to take the pharmo test to prove the AAF is indeed therapeutic. The outcome of this stage then is considered again and if pharmo test failed and/or no valid explanation the athlete is then official issued an AAF (confirmed AAF) for what is considered an ADRV and at this point the UCI make the AAF public and the team has to suspend the rider.

it took us a while ;)
 
May 26, 2010
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samhocking said:
You wish it wish it was that simple, so do many people on reflection lol!

If wishes wishes were fishes fishes......

Too much copy and pasting......busy boy. :D
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
samhocking said:
You wish it wish it was that simple, so do many people on reflection lol!

If wishes wishes were fishes fishes......

Too much copy and pasting......busy boy. :D

When jumping between three different forums, a comments section and few other PR duties you have to cut and paste now and then :cool: