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David Millar Velocitynation

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Jan 1, 2010
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Ferminal said:
But Armstrong won the 1999 TdF on EPO, so either he wasn't a GC rider and took EPO and won, or he always was a GC rider and EPO didn't help him win, he just took it for fun.

No! EPO only enhances one aspect of cycling performance. Concentrating on (one) limiting factor to cycling performance can't possibly make you a Tour contender or eventual winner, EPO or no EPO. Lance Armstrong can't win the TDF on EPO, its impossible, fact. Maybe you might want to go ask Millar if you don't believe me. Maybe you might want to go ask a honking Riis, 30 minutes down on a clean Ullrich in the '97 Tour on overall GC.

EPO can't win you the Tour, fact, EPO can't win Lance Armstrong a Tour, fact. Lerts not just concentrate on EPO, doping across the board can't win you a TDF, fact.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Rise Of The Dead said:
No! EPO only enhances one aspect of cycling performance. Concentrating on (one) limiting factor to cycling performance can't possibly make you a Tour contender or eventual winner, EPO or no EPO. Lance Armstrong can't win the TDF on EPO, its impossible, fact. Maybe you might want to go ask Millar if you don't believe me. Maybe you might want to go ask a honking Riis, 30 minutes down on a clean Ullrich in the '97 Tour on overall GC.

EPO can't win you the Tour, fact, EPO can't win Lance Armstrong a Tour, fact. Lerts not just concentrate on EPO, doping across the board can't win you a TDF, fact.

I asked David Millar and he said Lance won the Tour in 1999 because of EPO. He also said you don't know what you are talking about. Fact.
 
Jan 1, 2010
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Race Radio said:
I asked David Millar and he said Lance won the Tour in 1999 because of EPO. He also said you don't know what you are talking about. Fact.

No! Its impossible. EPO only enhances one aspect of cycling performance. Concentrating on one aspect can't make you a Tour contender or eventual winner.
 

Slayer

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Dr. Maserati said:
So - Arbiter, just for clarity - you are saying a "clean" Lance finished 12th....
Hate to break it to you - there are no prizes for finishing 12th....no Yellow Jersies, Pink Jersies, massive contracts. Michaelob wont care if you drink their product, Nike dont return your calls.

So - thank you for highlighting exactly where a rider of LA's ability would finish - probably outside the top 10...... (Oh, and for what its worth BPC - I doubt he was clean at the Giro either).

Well, first of all, if he actually put the effort in on the last time trial he would have been top ten easily. His placing was of no concern at that point, only not crashing on the winding streets of Rome.

But if we accept my thesis that Armstrong was clean. Now imagine him 10 years younger with an injury free training programme - of the kind he developed - and an extra year to build up. Where would he have finished in the Giro 09 then? Then, lets take out the people who were jacked above him, which we know for a fact was the second place man, and given that, makes the first place man highly suspicious.

Any serious consideration would have to put Armstrong amongst the favourites.
 
Slayer said:
But if we accept my thesis that Armstrong was clean. Now imagine him 10 years younger with an injury free training programme - of the kind he developed - and an extra year to build up. Where would he have finished in the Giro 09 then? Then, lets take out the people who were jacked above him, which we know for a fact was the second place man, and given that, makes the first place man highly suspicious.
.

interesting.
 
This was highlighted back in 1999 but Zulle admitted to taking EPO when Festina were busted in 98. He served his suspension and came back in 99 to finish 2nd in the Tour. If he was allegedly not taking EPO or whatever, surely he should have been shouting how there was no need to take EPO as he was capable of achieving his best Tour performance without EPO. This never happened, I was one of those people who naively believed the Festina guys would not dope again in 99 until somebody made this very relevant point.

On the affects of EPO, Bjarne Riis was never a star, if he had been a good amateur, he would have turned pro with a bigger team than a small Belgian kermesse team. Riis never showed an ounce of potential as a GC rider until he moved to Ariostea and started working with Luigi Cecchini.

I also remember how many former mediocre cyclists starting producing performances in the 90s. Guys would suddenly go on hot streaks. Just to follow one thread, Moreno Argentin was one of the first riders to start working with Ferrari and he went through a real renaissance early 90s, then his entire Ariostea teams started winning, guys like Cassani, Cenghialta, Lietti, Furlan, Elli, Riis who had all been former domestiques and won nothing.

Argentin moved to a new team Mecair in 93, this is where Berzin, Bobrik turned pro. Dr. Ferrari was looking after half the riders on the team whilst another doctor Walter Polini was looking after the other half including Berzin, Bobrik. A former domestique Alberto Volpi and Ferrari disciple won the former British World Cup race that season but later tested positive. That winter Polini was fired with Ferrari taking full responsibility for all riders. Polini revealed in an interview of doping products that could get through the controls including EPO.

Mecair evolved into Gewiss in 94 in which they had that remarkable season with the now infamous 1-2-3 in Fleche Wallone. Berzin had a decent debut season but no major results but once he started working with Ferrari, in just his second season as a pro he won the Giro. Gewiss would dominate the 94-95 seasons. Piotr Ugrumov who had been a pro with SEUR in Spain for a few seasons was a rider without any outstanding results but suddenly became a major Tour contender with Mecair/Gewiss.

There are just too many sudden improvements in riders performances to put it down to improved training or unfulfilled potential. I dont think there is any doubt that EPO could turn a useless rider into a decent one and a decent rider into a top rider. David Millar was never at the level of an early career Lance so thats like comparing apples and oranges. There is also the factor of how different riders respond to EPO and how far they are prepared to jack .

Remember Riis jacked to 60% haematocrit whilst Festina stayed around 50% according to Willy Voet, Festina then had a great Tour in 97 when the 50% limit was brought in and the other guys couldnt jack so high. That is why it levelled the playing field slightly and Riis came back down to earth but if people think Ullrich was clean in 97, they are clueless.

Of course EPO or other drugs are not the sole reason for creating a Tour winner but they still play a significant part. It could be the difference between the most talented guy finishing 1st or top 10 and that is a significant difference.

Millar was never a Tour riders but his performances definitely improved whilst he was on EPO. Millar never was top 50/60 in a GT tour before he took EPO so I dont see the point of focusing solely on Millar. He improved on EPO and since his comeback, has been nowhere near the same rider, explaing that one away.
 
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Guys, we are all going on the basis that taking EPO can actually produce side effects???... Effects which have a negative effect on athletic performance. We understand that don't we.
 
Rise Of The Dead said:
Guys, we are all going on the basis that taking EPO can actually produce side effects???... Effects which have a negative effect on athletic performance. We understand that don't we.

How about addressing some of the relevant points I made instead of just talking garbage. Why did so many rubbish riders suddenly improve in the 90s?
 
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Rise Of The Dead said:
Guys, we are all going on the basis that taking EPO can actually produce side effects???... Effects which have a negative effect on athletic performance. We understand that don't we.

Hey Dead, Could you please post some results of EPO's negative side effects?...

Sure...

2000 TDF: 62nd Place
2001 TDF: Abandoned after Stage 10
2002 TDF: 68th Place
2003 TDF: 55th Place
 
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pmcg76 said:
Of course EPO or other drugs are not the sole reason for creating a Tour winner but they still play a significant part. It could be the difference between the most talented guy finishing 1st or top 10 and that is a significant difference.

Or as we saw in the '97 Tour, it mean't the differnence between Riis finishing 7th honked upto the eyeballs over a clean Ullrich winning.
 
Rise Of The Dead said:
Or as we saw in the '97 Tour, it mean't the differnence between Riis finishing 7th honked upto the eyeballs over a clean Ullrich winning.


Where is the evidence to suggest Ullrich was clean in 97 and this is simple, Ullrich couldnt beat Riis in 96 because there was no limit to what level a rider could jack whilst in 97, the 50% was introduced which restricted Riis doping up to 60% haematocrit level. This is the same reason Festina had such a good Tour in 97 because their riders had always beel below the 50% level pre 97.

Secondly, you are not answering the question of why so many riders suddenly improved in the 90s. Answers please, no ducking or diving or side stepping.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
How about addressing some of the relevant points I made instead of just talking garbage. Why did so many rubbish riders suddenly improve in the 90s?

It will never happen. His goal is not to inform but pollute the forum.
 
Sep 9, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
I also remember how many former mediocre cyclists starting producing performances in the 90s. Guys would suddenly go on hot streaks. Just to follow one thread, Moreno Argentin was one of the first riders to start working with Ferrari and he went through a real renaissance early 90s, then his entire Ariostea teams started winning, guys like Cassani, Cenghialta, Lietti, Furlan, Elli, Riis who had all been former domestiques and won nothing.

Argentin moved to a new team Mecair in 93, this is where Berzin, Bobrik turned pro. Dr. Ferrari was looking after half the riders on the team whilst another doctor Walter Polini was looking after the other half including Berzin, Bobrik. A former domestique Alberto Volpi and Ferrari disciple won the former British World Cup race that season but later tested positive. That winter Polini was fired with Ferrari taking full responsibility for all riders. Polini revealed in an interview of doping products that could get through the controls including EPO.

Mecair evolved into Gewiss in 94 in which they had that remarkable season with the now infamous 1-2-3 in Fleche Wallone. Berzin had a decent debut season but no major results but once he started working with Ferrari, in just his second season as a pro he won the Giro. Gewiss would dominate the 94-95 seasons. Piotr Ugrumov who had been a pro with SEUR in Spain for a few seasons was a rider without any outstanding results but suddenly became a major Tour contender with Mecair/Gewiss.

Any rational person would have a hard time explaining away the Ferrari effect when it came to riders like Volpi, Furlan, Ugromov, Bobrik... But you forgot Colombo! Won MSR in 1996 and then went on to win... nothing at all.

The Italian '90s is the reason for my cycling cynicism. Man, I was such a believer back then...
 
Rise Of The Dead said:
Hey Dead, Could you please post some results of EPO's negative side effects?...

Sure...

2000 TDF: 62nd Place
2001 TDF: Abandoned after Stage 10
2002 TDF: 68th Place
2003 TDF: 55th Place

Well if we believe what Millar says, he wasnt on EPO for the 00 Tour, he had a very bad crash in 01 which was why he abandoned. He took EPO after the Tour in 01 during which he won the Tour of Denmark and 2 stages of the Vuelta.

He wasnt on EPO in 02, then he took EPO in May 03 for the Dauphine which he finished 2nd, he didnt take EPO for the 03 Tour but his team-mate Gaumont claimed he took something for his TT win. He did EPO for the Worlds which he won so if you look at his results, his best ones were when he was on EPO.

Your 'facts' rubbished again.
 
filipo said:
Any rational person would have a hard time explaining away the Ferrari effect when it came to riders like Volpi, Furlan, Ugromov, Bobrik... But you forgot Colombo! Won MSR in 1996 and then went on to win... nothing at all.

The Italian '90s is the reason for my cycling cynicism. Man, I was such a believer back then...

Colombo!!!, jeez there were so many of them Frattini, Minali, Colage, Faresin, Bortolami, Perini, Ghirotto, Ferrigato, Richard, Gianetti. All poor or average riders who had been around for ages but then suddenly started winning. The 93 Fondriest season, amazing.
 

Polish

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pmcg76 said:
Colombo!!!, jeez there were so many of them Frattini, Minali, Colage, Faresin, Bortolami, Perini, Ghirotto, Ferrigato, Richard, Gianetti. All poor or average riders who had been around for ages but then suddenly started winning. The 93 Fondriest season, amazing.

How many of those guys were TRANSFORMED into TdF winners by the ingestion of EPO alone?

Biggest myth - EPO alone will TRANSFORM average joe pro into TdF winning SuperPro. Do any Pro's still believe that myth LOL?
Does David Millar believe that?
 
Polish said:
How many of those guys were TRANSFORMED into TdF winners by the ingestion of EPO alone?

Biggest myth - EPO alone will TRANSFORM average joe pro into TdF winning SuperPro. Do any Pro's still believe that myth LOL?
Does David Millar believe that?

You guys dont get it, EPO helped turn rubbish riders into decent ones and good riders into super riders. See my list of formerly no-name riders who started to win. Why does to have to solely relate to winning the Tour. The aim of doping it to perform better than your talent allows, not just to win the Tour. Of course these guys didnt win GTs because they didnt have that level of talent to start with. A relatively talented rider could become a top level rider. For example, Piotr Ugrumov was capable of Top 10s in the Vuelta/Giro but when he moved to Mecai/Gewiss, he podiumed at the Giro/Tour in his late 30s. I dont think anybody is claiming your hero was a rubbish rider, he just wasnt a top Tour rider. I am sure if he had gone to the Vuelta, he could have got higher GC placings.

I dont think anybody on here would claim that it was 100% down to EPO but it was a major factor. I know you guys probably have no idea of the riders we are talking about from the 90s but the proof is all there.

I think that other guy Deadlift or whatever is of busily trying to google more rubbish 'facts' to try and back his ridiculous argument. Keep lining them up for me please, I am in the mood.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Polish said:
Biggest myth - EPO alone will TRANSFORM average joe pro into TdF winning SuperPro. Do any Pro's still believe that myth LOL?
Does David Millar believe that?

Has anybody posted that here? If so please show us, or it is just another of your straw men?

Every human responds differently to pharmaceuticals. This has been proven over and over in clinical trials. It is clear that some riders benefited more then others from the introduction of EPO in the Peloton.
 
pmcg76 said:
How about addressing some of the relevant points I made instead of just talking garbage. Why did so many rubbish riders suddenly improve in the 90s?

It looks like you are talking to Brain Dead. He likely did not respond directly to the excellent points you made because they were ... excellent (and factual, and concrete). He is a troll.
 
Rise Of The Dead said:
Or as we saw in the '97 Tour, it mean't the differnence between Riis finishing 7th honked upto the eyeballs over a clean Ullrich winning.

So, here it is, the top 10.
All we want from you is the definitive who rides clean, who rides dirty, from this bunch.

Final General Classification TDF 1997
1. Jan Ullrich (Ger) TEL 100.30.35
2. Richard Virenque (Fra) FES 9.09
3. Marco Pantani (Ita) MER 14.03
4. Abraham Olano (Spa) BAN 15.55
5. Fernando Escartin (Spa) KEL 20.32
6. Francesco Casagrande (Ita) SAE 22.47
7. Bjarne Riis (Dan) TEL 26.34
8. Jose Maria Jimenez (Spa) BAN 31.17
9. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) FES 31.55
10. Roberto Conti (Ita) MER 32.26

Give it some thought, instead of your usual, off the cuff garbage.