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Di Luca tests positive for EPO in OOC test.

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Benotti69 said:
The problem in cycling is the culture is to dope. If that entrenched culture had changed for the majority we would know it.

We know that the culture was to dope using EPO and that those not using it couldn't compete at all. So that meant the majority needed to dope. So with new dope undetectable and not showing up on BP why would this culture say no to doping?

My opinion is based on sound thinking. Look at the history of the sport. Look at the recent history of the sport and then think that for the culture of doping to stop there would have to have been a monumental moment to make that change. Even when riders were dying from EPO riders were still doping. So what, when the death of riders didn't stop the doping, has made them stop now?

And once back I bring back the Northern Ireland example, positions were very entrenched over the 30 year period yet change happened. Positions are still entrenched and there are still a few minority groups who still cause trouble but overall the position is much better than 30 years ago, not perfect but a lot better. Still the same parties, politicians and beliefs involved.

I am sure that most pro cyclists never wanted to dope but where faced with that choice, I am sure many wished for a change but just couldn't see an opening. You said that doping is a crime in France so that is one disincentive, all the affairs(especially Puerto) showed the huge networks that were in place, those are likely to have got smaller. Just maybe many riders were tired of the scandals, the pressure, the process of doping, who knows but to keep using a handful of examples to implicate everyone is folly.

There was a time at the height of the EPO era 95/96 where almost half the teams at the Tour were Italian with mostly Italian riders. Now there are two Italian teams at WT level. Why such a dramatic drop in Italian performances.
 
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Wallenquist said:
It's simple. Because he is not a rider he was once he was winning the Giro. He's old.

You can reverse the question: if sport is so doped as many say, why was dopers like Sayar, Grabovsky, Santambroggio winning easily?

Dont tell Horner ;)
 
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pmcg76 said:
That is a bit like saying 'Can you prove that God doesn't exist'.

I cannot prove God doesn't exist neither can I prove that he does! But we all know that doping existed massively in the recent history of the sport and i dont see what has made that mindset change.

pmcg76 said:
I am sure that most pro cyclists never wanted to dope but where faced with that choice, I am sure many wished for a change but just couldn't see an opening. You said that doping is a crime in France so that is one disincentive, all the affairs(especially Puerto) showed the huge networks that were in place, those are likely to have got smaller. Just maybe many riders were tired of the scandals, the pressure, the process of doping, who knows but to keep using a handful of examples to implicate everyone is folly.


Most professional sports people want to win of that I am sure. Most will do anything to win of that I am sure. Most teams want to win o that I am sure, most teams will do anything to win of that I am sure.

When riders were dying from EPO it didn't stop the teams or riders from doping with EPO, all they did was set their alarms to get up and ride a tacx in the middle of the night. That tells me what i really need to know about the mindset of riders and teams and their attitude to doping.

pmcg76 said:
There was a time at the height of the EPO era 95/96 where almost half the teams at the Tour were Italian with mostly Italian riders. Now there are two Italian teams at WT level. Why such a dramatic drop in Italian performances.

Italy is suffering from an economic crisis. There is not the money for sponsoring cycling teams like before. Especially when doping programs cost so much;).
 
pmcg76 said:
There was a time at the height of the EPO era 95/96 where almost half the teams at the Tour were Italian with mostly Italian riders. Now there are two Italian teams at WT level. Why such a dramatic drop in Italian performances.
Because after '99 cycling in Italy went from 2nd most popular sport to 1st most shameful. Not many sponsor are willing to be associated with that. I'm actually surprised there are still some.
 
Escarabajo said:
I'll give you my answer.

Too old. He was doping to the gills when he was winning. Since he is an average rider no way that just average doping can make him win. And that's just possible answers among others.

He was a mediocre GT GC rider when he was doping in the late 90's early 00's.

Accounting for age and lack of racing he did okay before he got busted

What does it mean I do not know
 
pmcg76 said:
And once back I bring back the Northern Ireland example, positions were very entrenched over the 30 year period yet change happened.

Was Di Luca riding in Northern Ireland? How many Northern Irish pros recently made the jump to World Tour?

I'm not arguing against the idea of improved competition in Northern Ireland. But, that Northern Ireland competition somehow signifies things are substantially better on the WorldTour.

Let's go down one tier to Pro Continental: http://www.atwistedspoke.com/dubai-calls-mancebo-and-sanchez-will-horner-go-into-the-desert/

That's a promotion for Mancebo.
 
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Escarabajo said:
I'll give you my answer.

Too old. He was doping to the gills when he was winning. Since he is an average rider no way that just average doping can make him win. And that's just possible answers among others.

How do we know he was average doping?

Age can be overcome, á la Papy Horner, but Di Luca probably suffered from an older program or less funding than before.
 
Benotti69 said:
I cannot prove God doesn't exist neither can I prove that he does! But we all know (at least those of us with half a brain) that doping existed massively in the recent history of the sport and i dont see what has made that mindset change.




Most professional sports people want to win of that I am sure. Most will do anything to win of that I am sure. Most teams want to win o that I am sure, most teams will do anything to win of that I am sure.

When riders were dying from EPO it didn't stop the teams or riders from doping with EPO, all they did was set their alarms to get up and ride a tacx in the middle of the night. That tells me what i really need to know about the mindset of riders and teams and their attitude to doping.



Italy is suffering from an economic crisis. There is not the money for sponsoring cycling teams like before. Especially when doping programs cost so much;).


Of course all athletes want to win, do they all want to win at all costs?? definitely not. If given the choice I am sure most athletes would prefer not to have to dope to compete, having to stick needles in yourself is something that most could live without I am sure.

Going back and picking urban myths of the early 90s is hardly evidence of the current mindset. Also you are once more taking a single incident and applying it right across the entire peloton as if every pro was doing the same thing.

You seem to have some sort of problem with comprehending that people and things change and not everyone has the exact same mindset.

I don't think the decline in Italian teams is solely down to the economic crisis, surely if the Italian cyclists were as good as they were in the 90s, they would all be riding for foreign teams instead but there are not that many good Italians anymore, even on Italian teams. As Eshnar pointed out cycling dropped in popularity and is an example of why many would see the need to clean things up a bit, when the product is tarnished it makes it harder to sell, thus less jobs.
 
Berzin said:
Let's leave the politics out of this forum please.

Thank you.

We are hardly discussing politics are we? I am using NI as a counterpoint to this idea that people cannot and will not change. NI just happens to be quite relevant to me and something I know well. We are not actually discussing the politics in NI, just the change in mindsets.
 
Pmcg76-your comparison was interesting and provocative, but off-topic. And I disagree with your viewpoint about it not being political. It is, and it's a hot-button issue at that that has the potential to get people riled up. Which is fine, but this is not the appropriate thread to do it in.

This is the reason why certain posts were edited (including yours).

Your comment was definitely food for thought (which is why I left your original comment untouched), but for the sake of keeping the thread on-topic, let's just leave this off the thread.

Thank you for your consideration. If you still do not agree, let's discuss it via pm so as not to clog the thread.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Of course all athletes want to win, do they all want to win at all costs?? definitely not. If given the choice I am sure most athletes would prefer not to have to dope to compete, having to stick needles in yourself is something that most could live without I am sure.

When most have been making big sacrifices and working towards professionalism to the detriment of alternative careers taking PEDs is not a even an option, they do it.

pmcg76 said:
Going back and picking urban myths of the early 90s is hardly evidence of the current mindset. Also you are once more taking a single incident and applying it right across the entire peloton as if every pro was doing the same thing.

Oh riders weren't dying? Greg LeMond begs to dffer.

pmcg76 said:
You seem to have some sort of problem with comprehending that people and things change and not everyone has the exact same mindset.

No i dont. The choice of PEDs change, the methods change, but when something is engrained it needs a monumental moment to change that. Take a country like Italy where traditions last for centuries, that is the mindset that is not going to change easily especially as doping is connected with money.

pmcg76 said:
I don't think the decline in Italian teams is solely down to the economic crisis, surely if the Italian cyclists were as good as they were in the 90s, they would all be riding for foreign teams instead but there are not that many good Italians anymore, even on Italian teams. As Eshnar pointed out cycling dropped in popularity and is an example of why many would see the need to clean things up a bit, when the product is tarnished it makes it harder to sell, thus less jobs.

Italians in plenty of sports dont like to travel. Italian soccer is not the best league in the world but Italian players are not leaving it in droves.
 
Benotti69 said:
When most have been making big sacrifices and working towards professionalism to the detriment of alternative careers taking PEDs is not a even an option, they do it.



Oh riders weren't dying? Greg LeMond begs to dffer.



No i dont. The choice of PEDs change, the methods change, but when something is engrained it needs a monumental moment to change that. Take a country like Italy where traditions last for centuries, that is the mindset that is not going to change easily especially as doping is connected with money.



Italians in plenty of sports dont like to travel. Italian soccer is not the best league in the world but Italian players are not leaving it in droves.

Really because I think if you read a lot of the stories by former pros, Hamilton, Riis, Kimmage etc, it was only really when they got to pro level that they faced that choice. Not all of them made that choice, some quit, some like Basson's or Moncoutie continued on clean whilst most joined the crowd. As always there is a variety.

If riders are not faced with that choice as soon as they join the pro ranks, then it is less likely to happen. Right now there is a rider, Phil Gaimon leading San Luis who has just moved up to PT level, Gaimon has had a reputation as a strong anti-doping rider for quite a long time. I doubt he is thinking that he needs to dope to ride with these guys, maybe that will change with time but right now it's an encouraging sign.


Doping was ingrained in Italy which is perhaps why after so many scandals, the Italians stopped sponsoring teams leading to the current situation of only two Italian WT teams. Italians not travelling is like some kind of statement from the 80s. Basso rode for CSC and Discovery did he not, Scarponi rode for Liberty, Visconti is at Movistar, Nibali at Astana, Ballan at BMC. No the Italians are not as good as they once were and the sponsors have deserted the sport.
 
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pmcg76 said:
We are hardly discussing politics are we? I am using NI as a counterpoint to this idea that people cannot and will not change. NI just happens to be quite relevant to me and something I know well. We are not actually discussing the politics in NI, just the change in mindsets.

also, none of this is true. If anything the NI analogy perfectly mirrors, in many ways, what happened in cycling IMO.

But I agree with the admin, theres no place for discussing it here
 
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Benotti69 said:
Can you point to the change before calling posters ***?
Sorry but not going to believe the sport has gotten any cleaner.

I will do so again, but this clearly shows you have a very selective memory. But let's rattle just a few of the cold hard facts as that is the easiest way to close this one down.

1. Doping is nowadays criminal in many Euopean countries. That's a rather significant change.
2. There are all kinds of initiatives from the ground up (MPCC) to stop doping. That's rather new.
3. A guy called LA is actually being prosecuted without a positive on record. Now that's a big change.
4. Most unions are soul searching how to get rid of the history of the dark years. There are all kinds of truth commisions etc. We never had those before.
5. Teams like Belkin fired their management team due to Doping involvement, without being a huge scandal at the bottom of it (better said, the scandal was years ago). Yes, wish all teams did that, but that's pretty new.

So it's absolutely bizarre and undeniably false to say nothing changed in combattiing doping, the perception of doping and prosecution of doping.

And once again, let me destroy a few strawmen before anyone erects them:

1. I do not claim pro-cyclists are clean.
2. I do not claim certain teams are clean.
3. Though it's likely the sport is somewhat cleaner, there's no definitive proof either way. I personally would say it's still a huge and prevailing issue.
4. There is no reason to trust any of the riders, DS and doctors. But I do think that trust is a problem that needs to be solved or the sport will never clean up. The lynchmob mentality prevalent in the clinic is a sure-fire way to stiffle any discussion.

Things changed, the culture has changed (as many external things have changed the culture will have changed. It's impossible not to be the case). Now is this the right way? Did it change for the better? I make no claims about that, in fact I'm very sceptical about it. But denying things have changed is simply ***.
 
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Franklin said:
denying things have changed is simply ***.

There is no evidence whatsoever that things have changed. The fans are told things have changed by riders, federations and team managers and we are meant to take there word for it? Any rational thinking person would be naïve to do so. Its slightly worrying that the fans are buying this narrative and suggests we all have very short memories.

Take the Bio Passport as just one example. When they looked at Lance Armstrongs profile from 2010 the conclusion was that the odds were million to 1 that he didn't dope on his return. However this was never picked up when it was first analysed. Only on second analysis was this found to be the case.

Bear in mind that this is the same passport system as is used today how many other riders "slipped through the net" in the period 2009-2014?

For riders to turn on Di Luca and say that things are different today is factually inaccurate and misleading to the public.

They should be commending him for coming forward and inviting him to give details if they want a clean sport
 
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Franklin said:
I will do so again, but this clearly shows you have a very selective memory. But let's rattle just a few of the cold hard facts as that is the easiest way to close this one down.

1. Doping is nowadays criminal in many Euopean countries. That's a rather significant change.

So all those that have tested positive are a mirage? Contador tested positive at the TdF for a banned substance and the cops did nothing, so I guess all those riders wont dope because Contador got slammed into jail.

Franklin said:
2. There are all kinds of initiatives from the ground up (MPCC) to stop doping. That's rather new.

A PR institution that not all teams signed up to.

Franklin said:
3. A guy called LA is actually being prosecuted without a positive on record. Now that's a big change.

Because the Feds got involved. Without the Feds Armstrong would be in Tri's.
Are the Feds going to police the whole sport? USADA were not going to ban the Garmin dopers FFS. This has had no change on the sport. If any change it means teams wont let riders shoot their mouths off á la Armstrong.

Franklin said:
4. Most unions are soul searching how to get rid of the history of the dark years. There are all kinds of truth commisions etc. We never had those before.

All kinds of Truth commissions? There is 1 commission looking into the past. That will really stop the dopers.

Franklin said:
5. Teams like Belkin fired their management team due to Doping involvement, without being a huge scandal at the bottom of it (better said, the scandal was years ago). Yes, wish all teams did that, but that's pretty new.

Yeah, so? Sky fired loads but look at Skinny Froome tting and climbing out of this world for a guy who was hanging onto motorbikes? Doesn't prove they are clean. They got rid of toxic people. The new people replacing them are not necessarily clean! The speeds of GTs are still going up not down.

Franklin said:
So it's absolutely bizarre and undeniably false to say nothing changed in combattiing doping, the perception of doping and prosecution of doping.

The culture to dope. I repeat the culture to dope is my claim has not changed.

Franklin said:
And once again, let me destroy a few strawmen before anyone erects them:

1. I do not claim pro-cyclists are clean.
2. I do not claim certain teams are clean.
3. Though it's likely the sport is somewhat cleaner, there's no definitive proof either way. I personally would say it's still a huge and prevailing issue.
4. There is no reason to trust any of the riders, DS and doctors. But I do think that trust is a problem that needs to be solved or the sport will never clean up. The lynchmob mentality prevalent in the clinic is a sure-fire way to stiffle any discussion.

Lynchmob? What lynchmob. It is a forum where people post their opinions. Get real.


Franklin said:
Things changed, the culture has changed (as many external things have changed the culture will have changed. It's impossible not to be the case). Now is this the right way? Did it change for the better? I make no claims about that, in fact I'm very sceptical about it. But denying things have changed is simply ***.

The culture to dope has not changed. The culture of doping has changed due to so many scandals, due to different methods of PEDs, due to having to avoid the media, due to lots of reasons but the basic premise of taking banned substances or using banned methods to cheat is still the pervading culture.

All you have posted is a list of PR. Even USADA have not done much apart from catch a big, but old fish in the pond and that fish was rubbing everyone's noses in the dirt with its doping. USADA have not busted Horner after his outrageous win at la Vuelta, which is just one proof of there being little or imo no change in the culture of using PEDs in the sport.

Go onto dopeology.org and just look at how many teams and people have been involved in doping and think the MPCC is going to change that. MPCC a toothless little PR organisation with little power.
 
hrotha said:
Are you guys even reading Franklin's posts.
^^

Di Luca himself states in the interview that back in the past doping was different (he states "before we were even talking about it in the peloton, there was a lot of "ignorance"). Things have changed. At least the perception of the issue, by media, fans and riders, has definitely changed. Not sure why Benotti is keeping on arguing about the "culture to dope" when Franklin clearly isn't claiming that has changed