Di Luca tests positive for EPO in OOC test.

[the sceptic]

snip

So everyone is doping, and no change is possible. Why do you even care then?

 

[Benotti69]

So everyone is doping, and no change is possible.

The culture is to dope. Is everyone doping? pretty much.

Change is always possible but it needs a catalyst. I have not seen that catalyst.

Why do you even care then?

Stupid question.

I care because I am a fan of cycling.

 

[Escarabajo]

The culture is to dope. Is everyone doping? pretty much.
Change is always possible but it needs a catalyst. I have not seen that catalyst.



Stupid question.

I care because I am a fan of cycling.

What catalyst do you need if everybody is doping? Is not going to come from anybody. Do you believe that there was actually any rider that has been clean in history??

 

[VeloFidelis]

I care because I am a fan of cycling.

Then you are also a fan of doping. Either accept what you know you have been watching for the last twenty years, and move on... or just admit that... you like to watch.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Than you are also a fan of doping. Either accept what you know you have been watching for the last twenty years, and move on... or just admit that... you like to watch.

Bzzt .

 

[pmcg76]

Either you don't recall, or you haven't read the USADA affadavits.(sp)

Under 23 elites seemed like a more accurate start.

I have read the affidavits but most stated they started doping at Pro level and most of them resisted doping for as long as they could. Vandevelde, Barry, Zabriskie, Landis all say they started doping at US Postal. In the case of Landis and Barry, they were already pros on the US scene before they reached US Postal. Zabriskie resisted for the first two years he was at Postal. Leipheimer started at Saturn, cannot remember Danielson but again it was with Rick Crawford was it not. Vaughters-Santa Clara. Who else was there? I forget. Hincapie, cannot remember either.

If Landis is to be believed he almost won Tour de L'Avenir clean which is a major race for the elite U-23s.

In Italy on the other hand, it seems doping was rife among the amateur U-23 teams. I don't doubt that.

 

[del1962]

So has Di Luca made any accusations about people he saw doping, confessed to him that doped, doctors that helped him doped, ppl that supplied him dope, or is he just saying that everyone (or nearly everyone) dopes as some sort of defence of his own doping?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I have read the affidavits .

Re-read Hincapie's strategic confession. Levi doped prior to Saturn. Levi should have a lifetime ban because the USADA actions was his second official sanction. That's never going to happen though because Thom Wiesel has a soft spot for Levi and permits doping for "winners" like his USPS riders.

Emphasis on the notion that these were strategic confessions. Not materially false confessions, but strategic disclosures every single time. Again, this is how rotten the sport still is at the Pro level. I'm not saying your region is the same cesspool.

Hopefully, Di Luca has as good a plan as Landis. I'm not optimistic because it appears that Italian anti-doping IS the Italian Olympic Committee. If there are some Italians that can clarify/correct me, that would be great.

 

[pmcg76]

Re-read Hincapie's strategic confession. Levi doped prior to Saturn. Levi should have a lifetime ban because the USADA actions was his second official sanction. That's never going to happen though because Thom Wiesel has a soft spot for Levi and permits doping for "winners" like his USPS riders.

Emphasis on the notion that these were strategic confessions. Not materially false confessions, but strategic disclosures every single time. Again, this is how rotten the sport still is at the Pro level. I'm not saying your region is the same cesspool.

Hopefully, Di Luca has as good a plan as Landis. I'm not optimistic because it appears that Italian anti-doping IS the Italian Olympic Committee. If there are some Italians that can clarify/correct me, that would be great.

Yes but you insinuated there was a lot of references to doping at U-23 Elite level in the affidavits. I don't recall any references to doping at that level as most of the US riders didn't ride in Europe at U-23 level. Levi started out at Colordao Cyclist if I am not mistaken. I think he an JV were team-mates in 97.

The only US rider I ever heard go into detail about doping at U-23 level was Matt DeCanio who rode in Italy.

 

[Granville57]

If Landis is to be believed he almost won Tour de L'Avenir clean which is a major race for the elite U-23s.

JV would seem to be convinced, and that to me, is noteworthy.

Floyd also had very good physiology, clean, as evidenced by his 3rd in tour d'lavenir, long before he doped.

 

[Benotti69]

Re-read Hincapie's strategic confession. Levi doped prior to Saturn. Levi should have a lifetime ban because the USADA actions was his second official sanction. That's never going to happen though because Thom Wiesel has a soft spot for Levi and permits doping for "winners" like his USPS riders.

Emphasis on the notion that these were strategic confessions. Not materially false confessions, but strategic disclosures every single time. Again, this is how rotten the sport still is at the Pro level. I'm not saying your region is the same cesspool.

Hopefully, Di Luca has as good a plan as Landis. I'm not optimistic because it appears that Italian anti-doping IS the Italian Olympic Committee. If there are some Italians that can clarify/correct me, that would be great.

Wasn't Hincapie doping with Carmichael along with Armstrong? They were both U23 then.

 

[pmcg76]

Wasn't Hincapie doping with Carmichael along with Armstrong? They were both U23 then.

Well apparently Carmichael was doping the riders but Darren Baker was also part of the US national team those years and he has a reputation as being clean unless Carmichael was doping them without their knowledge. Jonas Carney was another on the US national team at that time and he apparently has a very strong anti doping view. He is the manager of Kelly Benefit team who fired Salas that the other thread is about.

 

[BroDeal]

Well apparently Carmichael was doping the riders but Darren Baker was also part of the US national team those years and he has a reputation as being clean unless Carmichael was doping them without their knowledge. Jonas Carney was another on the US national team at that time and he apparently has a very strong anti doping view. He is the manager of Kelly Benefit team who fired Salas that the other thread is about.

Wow. You sure put a lot of faith in riders' supposedly clean reputations. Have you ever considered a career as Bruyneel's look-'em-in-the-eye anti-doping assistant?

 

[pmcg76]

Wow. You sure put a lot of faith in riders' supposedly clean reputations. Have you ever considered a career as Bruyneel's look-'em-in-the-eye anti-doping assistant?

I think you need to educate yourself. When Tyler Hamilton brought his book out, the two guys he backed as clean at Postal were Baker and Scott Mercer. If I am not mistaken Baker was then interviewed as a follow up to Hamilton's comments to talk about why he didn't dope.

On Jonas Carney, his attitude seem's to be common knowledge on the US dometic scene, I have heard it mentioned a few different places as well. Matt DeCanio said Prime Alliance was a clean team, Carney was there. I think DQD and a few other posters would back that info.

These are not just random things I make up, these are stories out there in the public domain.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yes but you insinuated there was a lot of references to doping at U-23 Elite level in the affidavits. I don't recall any references to doping at that level as most of the US riders didn't ride in Europe at U-23 level. Levi started out at Colordao Cyclist if I am not mistaken. I think he an JV were team-mates in 97.

The only US rider I ever heard go into detail about doping at U-23 level was Matt DeCanio who rode in Italy.

Ok, we're way off Di Luca at this point, so I'm going to leave it here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/

Carmichael doping "Under 23" athletes.

Hincapie strategic disclosures:
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

In 1992 I competed in my first Olympics. My coach on the team was Chris Carmichael. While on the 1992 Olympic team I received what I understood to be vitamin B-12 injections from Angus Fraiser."

One of the things that always makes me wonder is why people never put the Carmichael/Wenzel lawsuit together with Armstrong, and similarly, why Hincapie's disclosure never lead to other riders being implicated from the same era.

There were very likely clean American riders performing at elite level as mentioned, (Carney, Mercer) there was also systematic doping. The U.S. was not alone in preparing riders. This was elite cycling run by Verbruggen with an IOC okay with doping. These are not controversial claims at this point.

Here's more recent under-23 doping: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/szczepaniak-brothers-positive-for-epo-at-cyclo-cross-worlds

 

[pmcg76]

Ok, we're way off Di Luca at this point, so I'm going to leave it here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/

Carmichael doping "Under 23" athletes.

Hincapie strategic disclosures:
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

In 1992 I competed in my first Olympics. My coach on the team was Chris Carmichael. While on the 1992 Olympic team I received what I understood to be vitamin B-12 injections from Angus Fraiser."

There were clean American riders performing at elite level as mentioned, (Carney, Mercer) there was also systematic doping. The U.S. was not alone in preparing riders.

Fair enough to leave it here. Maybe they were doped without knowing.

 

[Franklin]

Fair enough to leave it here. Maybe they were doped without knowing.

Ridonculous. I's not as if doping was unknown back then.. there were huge scandals (Ben Johnson) with Olympians. Besides, everyone knew that cycling was a dirty sport. Yet somehow a 20 year old who clearly is not ***, who was dreaming of becoming a euro pro and/or winning an olympic medal is so trusting that he lets himself be injected with "vitamins"?

It's preposterous.

 

[Netserk]

I think you need to educate yourself. When Tyler Hamilton brought his book out, the two guys he backed as clean at Postal were Baker and Scott Mercer. If I am not mistaken Baker was then interviewed as a follow up to Hamilton's comments to talk about why he didn't dope.

I guess you also believe Luigi Cecchini wasn't/isn't involved in doping then

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ridonculous. I's not as if doping was unknown back then.. there were huge scandals (Ben Johnson) with Olympians. Besides, everyone knew that cycling was a dirty sport. Yet somehow a 20 year old who clearly is not ***, who was dreaming of becoming a euro pro and/or winning an olympic medal is so trusting that he lets himself be injected with "vitamins"?

It's preposterous.

Disagree completely.

Vit B injections, etc, can have dramatic effect on recovery and possibly performance.

 

[Franklin]

Disagree completely.

Vit B injections, etc, can have dramatic effect on recovery and possibly performance.

1. That's rather debatable. The first few links I hit actually use words like "quack". So it's hardly established that it has a "dramatic" effect.
2. Oral intake is (as usual with vitamins!)more effective.
3. I was a junior cyclist and I definitely would connect injections with shady stuff. Now these were not juniors, but actually pretty much veteran amateurs.

So, no. I'm not buying (at face value) any vitamin or iron shot story of an athlete. Sure, it could be true, but damn... you must be naive to let yourself injected in this sport (ANY SPORT!).

 

[DirtyWorks]

you must be naive to let yourself injected in this sport (ANY SPORT!).

It's not about being naive. It's about making a choice in a moment.

Some have an easy time of saying "No." when your coaching staff is saying take the dope.

Meanwhile the coaching staff and the competition itself applies enough pressure to adjust personal opinions. (Dave Z.)

Still others say "Yes." (Hincapie, Levi, etc.)

Di Luca is definitely a product of an era where the sport's regulators and performance managers had no problems with doping.

 

[Franklin]

It's not about being naive. It's about making a choice in a moment.

Some have an easy time of saying "No." when your coaching staff is saying take the dope.

Meanwhile the coaching staff and the competition itself applies enough pressure to adjust personal opinions. (Dave Z.)

Still others say "Yes." (Hincapie, Levi, etc.)

Di Luca is definitely a product of an era where the sport's regulators and performance managers had no problems with doping.

No disagreement there, but the question was if a twenty year cylcist can be so naive that he let's himself be injected with "vitamins"

 

[pmcg76]

I guess you also believe Luigi Cecchini wasn't/isn't involved in doping then

So how did Basson's get a clean reputation? Oh that's right it was Willy Voet who said he was clean. How is that different? Or Moncoutie for that matter?

Well considering what Hamilton said about Cecchini was backed by Riis and Jorg Jaksche, that might not be so far-fetched. We have yet to hear someone come forward and say they were doped by Cecchini. That's not to say Cecchini didn't advise them how to dope but it doesn't sound like he gave out dope or was personally involved.

 

[blackcat]

I dont believe in Moncoutie,

sry

 

[Benotti69]

I dont believe in Moncoutie,

sry

Was it raceradio who poured scorn on Moncoutie being clean? Moncoutie had very good performances in EPO era. Not credible.