Di Luca tests positive for EPO in OOC test.

[Le breton]

Was it raceradio who poured scorn on Moncoutie being clean? Moncoutie had very good performances in EPO era. Not credible.

That's a stupid comment. I didn't say you are stupid.
RR does not believe Moncoutié was clean, so what? only hearsay, propagated by who? Virenque?
I just make my calculations and I can see that everything Moncoutié did in his career was in line with what could be expected from a pro cyclist with a VO2 in the range 88-90 ml/mn.kg in his best form. Like his times on uphill TT on Ventoux (1999/2004), AdH (2004, where he was lucky to reach the last bit before the wind picked-up)

That plus the fact that he chose his goals very carefully, understood what was do-able and what was not without EPO and everything else. Took "days-off" during the TdF, finishing in the gruppetto to prepare for his chosen stages.

Plus the way he won the mountain jersey in the Vuelta if you remember.

Everything in his career is consistent.

Of course, that doesn't equate to a proof, but it certainly can't be called "not credible

It's funny when you say that he performed well in the EPO era, it certainly is at odds with comments concerning him in French forums.

 

[Le breton]

Was it raceradio who poured scorn on Moncoutie being clean? Moncoutie had very good performances in EPO era. Not credible.

Oh, sorry, I just realized that you meant RR was not credible on that one .

 

[jens_attacks]

what performance before 1993 was on the same magnitude as 1999 moncoutie ascent up ventoux, Le breton?

moncoucou wasn't exactly bahamontes,gaul or herrera in terms of talent


if moncoutie climbed the ventoux at 22 kmph without jet fuel, from tomorrow i will listen only justin bieber in the car

and that stage digne les bains 2005 which i remember was supersonic. without extra blood he would have been dropped from the peloton, forget fighting for the win

 

[Netserk]

So how did Basson's get a clean reputation? Oh that's right it was Willy Voet who said he was clean. How is that different? Or Moncoutie for that matter?

Doctor =/= Rider

Do you really believe everything in "the secret race" is totally true and objective? Or Michael Rasmussen's book?

I've read both, and I find it very plausible that the outings are true, whereas some other things are either not mentioned, or untrue.

Well considering what Hamilton said about Cecchini was backed by Riis and Jorg Jaksche, that might not be so far-fetched. We have yet to hear someone come forward and say they were doped by Cecchini. That's not to say Cecchini didn't advise them how to dope but it doesn't sound like he gave out dope or was personally involved.

1) I don't believe it's a coincidence that so many top-dopers have used Luigi.

2) In 'Gul Feber' MR says that TD had told him that he had blood bags in his basement. I find this in the category of plausible outings in his book. Not much of a motive to make it up. Much more of a motive though for Tyler not to tell the whole truth in his book.

...

Do you still believe that it's more likely that Luigi is a 'clean' doctor?

 

[jens_attacks]

clean in many pros definition, probably moncoutie too, is keeping your natural values in balance and not pumping up the hemoglobine you were born with. if that is clean then yes he might have been clean

 

[pmcg76]

Doctor =/= Rider

Do you really believe everything in "the secret race" is totally true and objective? Or Michael Rasmussen's book?

I've read both, and I find it very plausible that the outings are true, whereas some other things are either not mentioned, or untrue.



1) I don't believe it's a coincidence that so many top-dopers have used Luigi.

2) In 'Gul Feber' MR says that TD had told him that he had blood bags in his basement. I find this in the category of plausible outings in his book. Not much of a motive to make it up. Much more of a motive though for Tyler not to tell the whole truth in his book.

...

Do you still believe that it's more likely that Luigi is a 'clean' doctor?

I could say the exact same about Willy Voet's book, is it all true and objective becasue that is where Bassons developed his clean reputation.

Darren Baker walked away from the sport in 97 after one full season in Europe. Why?

As I said Jorg Jaksche(and Riis)backed up what Hamilton said, not sure if really means much but does Rasmussen have someone to back up what he claims. I think Cecchini knew how to plan training with blood doping but I don't know if he was as hands on as say for example Ferrari.

At the end of the day, dopers will still want the best coaches.

 

[pmcg76]

Was it raceradio who poured scorn on Moncoutie being clean? Moncoutie had very good performances in EPO era. Not credible.

Race Radio did say he heard that Moncoutie was not clean but I think has actually backtracked on that comment since then.

 

[the sceptic]

Was it raceradio who poured scorn on Moncoutie being clean? Moncoutie had very good performances in EPO era. Not credible.

the same race radio that looked Porte in the eye over lunch and declared him clean?

 

[Netserk]

I could say the exact same about Willy Voet's book, is it all true and objective becasue that is where Bassons developed his clean reputation.

Darren Baker walked away from the sport in 97 after one full season in Europe. Why?

As I said Jorg Jaksche(and Riis)backed up what Hamilton said, not sure if really means much but does Rasmussen have someone to back up what he claims. I think Cecchini knew how to plan training with blood doping but I don't know if he was as hands on as say for example Ferrari.

At the end of the day, dopers will still want the best coaches.

So what do you believe is more likely? That he was clean or dirty?

 

[Le breton]

A)what performance before 1993 was on the same magnitude as 1999 moncoutie ascent up ventoux, Le breton?

Bmoncoucou wasn't exactly bahamontes,gaul or herrera in terms of talent


Cif moncoutie climbed the ventoux at 22 kmph without jet fuel, from tomorrow i will listen only justin bieber in the car

Dand that stage digne les bains 2005 which i remember was supersonic. without extra blood he would have been dropped from the peloton, forget fighting for the win

A) Low octane? Jeff in 1987 did it 23 s. faster than moncoucou and he had started from carpentras, an extra 20 min of effort.

B) Did archangel Gabriel tell you that in your dreams? As far as I am concerned I don't see why the best French GT cyclist of the 1999-2008 period could not be the equal of the best Spanish GT cyclist of the 1955-1964 period.
How do you measure that when the field is totally distorted by powerful drugs. By the way, if you subtract the handicap on an extra 2+ kg in 1958 (compared to 1999) and the rough condition of the Ventoux road in 1958, Bahamontes (62:40, real winner of the stage in my books) and Gaul times up Ventoux are very similar to the 58:31 by moncoucou.
1987 : Zero octane- banana in back pocket Herrera did about the same time as moncoucou 1999

C) Who is Justin Bieber?

D) I would have to go back, don't t remember details.

 

[pmcg76]

So what do you believe is more likely? That he was clean or dirty?

Who?? Baker or Bassons? I believe they were both clean. I am not the one with the moving scale of belief where Voet is somehow more believeable than Hamillton.

 

[jens_attacks]

the time reported in 1987 is not correct and that i can tell you 100%

jeff pumped on cortisone and god knows what did around 1:01:30 and not 58 minutes or something like that. and herrera slower

moncoutie just like any other shy, doing things on his own, pro cyclist of the jet fuel era came up better than his collegues. cadel is also a good example, sastre too.

don't ask, don't tell. but do it. works perfect

 

[pmcg76]

the same race radio that looked Porte in the eye over lunch and declared him clean?

I would guess that RR heard something from someone who believed Moncoutie was dirty but then might have heard something different from someone who was closer to Moncoutie thus causing him to backtrack.

 

[Netserk]

Who?? Baker or Bassons? I believe they were both clean. I am not the one with the moving scale of belief where Voet is somehow more believeable than Hamillton.

If you are going to claim that I hold certain opinions, please use a quote.

I asked about Luigi which was quite clear.

 

[Netserk]

I would guess that RR heard something from someone who believed Moncoutie was dirty but then might have heard something different from someone who was closer to Moncoutie thus causing him to backtrack.

Where has he backtracked???

AFAIK he never did. When asked to elaborate on his claim that he was dirty, he just didn't respond.

 

[Le breton]

the time reported in 1987 is not correct and that i can tell you 100%

jeff pumped on cortisone and god knows what did around 1:01:30 and not 58 minutes or something like that. and herrera slower

moncoutie just like any other shy, doing things on his own, pro cyclist of the jet fuel era came up better than his collegues. cadel is also a good example, sastre too.

don't ask, don't tell. but do it. works perfect

I know how careful you are recording ascent times, unfortunately right now my desk/files are in a total mess as I have had to deal with important matters, questions of €, not min and sec. So I am at a disadvantage, but a discrepancy of 2'20", 1,5 km, in Bédoin as compared to times posted in L'Equipe just seems too much.
I am ready to believe that the split time was not taken exactly at the spot of the uphill TT. It does not even take 2'20" in a small village like Bédoin for those guys to go from the entrance to the exit in 50 km/h zone

Anyway that time would have to be checked against the other split times given by L'Equipe to see which, 58 or 61,5 makes more sense.

Or else, youtube?

 

[pmcg76]

Where has he backtracked???

AFAIK he never did. When asked to elaborate on his claim that he was dirty, he just didn't respond.

Yes he refused to answer for a long time but I think he did then change his mind. Ask RR, I am harldy going to remember when he said that or in what thread.

 

[pmcg76]

If you are going to claim that I hold certain opinions, please use a quote.

I asked about Luigi which was quite clear.

It was far from clear who you were asking about considering we had been discussing Baker, Bassons and Cecchini.

Before, I would have definitely put Cecchini in the same category as Ferrari et al but the comments of guys like Hamilton, Riis and Jaksche make me unsure now. I got the impression from them that Cecchini wanted as little to do with dope as possible but realised that in the prevailing climate of the time, doping was an evil necessity but left that end of it more up to the riders themselves.

If those stories had come from just one of them I would have not likely believed but becasue they all agree(especiall Jaksche) I am not sure one way or the other. Call it sitting on the fence if you want but that's my current opinion. I can be easily swayed if more info comes to hand.

 

[Netserk]

It was far from clear who you were asking about considering we had been discussing Baker, Bassons and Cecchini.

My post was this:

So what do you believe is more likely? That he was clean or dirty?

My last post before that:

Doctor =/= Rider

Do you really believe everything in "the secret race" is totally true and objective? Or Michael Rasmussen's book?

I've read both, and I find it very plausible that the outings are true, whereas some other things are either not mentioned, or untrue.



1) I don't believe it's a coincidence that so many top-dopers have used Luigi.

2) In 'Gul Feber' MR says that TD had told him that he had blood bags in his basement. I find this in the category of plausible outings in his book. Not much of a motive to make it up. Much more of a motive though for Tyler not to tell the whole truth in his book.

...

Do you still believe that it's more likely that Luigi is a 'clean' doctor?

 

[Netserk]

Yes he refused to answer for a long time but I think he did then change his mind. Ask RR, I am harldy going to remember when he said that or in what thread.

I've searched the clinic for RR's post containing Moncoutie, and the only post I could find (where he tried to answer) was this:

Engaging in a discussion on these boards has become close to impossible.

I have explained how I came to my opinion on Moncutie. I have also explained that I do not believe SKY has a team doping program. Certainly it is highly possible riders on the team are doping, it is Pro cycling.....but team wide program? No way. I have explained that I came to these conclusions by talking to a wide variety of people in the sport. Riders, staff, administrators. Former Pro's, Current Pro's.

Of course this is not good enough for most here.

Was that the one you meant, or was there another one?

 

[Franklin]

If those stories had come from just one of them I would have not likely believed but becasue they all agree(especiall Jaksche) I am not sure one way or the other. Call it sitting on the fence if you want but that's my current opinion. I can be easily swayed if more info comes to hand.

It's really hard not to see him as encouraging and facilitating doping. He almost beyond a sliver of a doubt must have known about their doping regimes, otherwise he could never be able to create such effective trainingschemes.

Doping and training, certainly at the highest level, is two sides of the same coin. Ferrari, who is one of the most knowledgable trainers in the world, was aware and handled both sides.

In this case Hamilton and Riis can protect him all they want, I don't see any way to make me think of him differently. Just like Fuentes, Checchini probably know so much that the players, even those outed, keep their mouths shut.

 

[pmcg76]

I've searched the clinic for RR's post containing Moncoutie, and the only post I could find (where he tried to answer) was this:



Was that the one you meant, or was there another one?

No, I think there was another when all he said was 'I might have been wrong' or something to that effect. Again he didn't elaborate and I think it happened well after the matter was originally discussed.

 

[pmcg76]

It's really hard not to see him as encouraging and facilitating doping. He almost beyond a sliver of a doubt must have known about their doping regimes, otherwise he could never be able to create such effective trainingschemes.

Doping and training, certainly at the highest level, is two sides of the same coin. Ferrari, who is one of the most knowledgable trainers in the world, was aware and handled both sides.

In this case Hamilton and Riis can protect him all they want, I don't see any way to make me think of him differently. Just like Fuentes, Checchini probably know so much that the players, even those outed, keep their mouths shut.

Oh Checchini knew for sure about the doping and probably knew how to co-ordinate it with training, I think he would have prefered a sport without doping but knew it was part of the game but I just don't think he encouraged or facilitated it.

 

[Le breton]

the time reported in 1987 is not correct and that i can tell you 100%

jeff pumped on cortisone and god knows what did around 1:01:30 and not 58 minutes or something like that. and herrera slower

moncoutie just like any other shy, doing things on his own, pro cyclist of the jet fuel era came up better than his collegues. cadel is also a good example, sastre too.

don't ask, don't tell. but do it. works perfect

This ARTE TV programme mentioned here should be of interest to you
http://www.lejdc.fr/nievre/sports/a...ur-arte-devant-merckx-et-pantani_1622732.html

http://www.arte.tv/guide/fr/046525-000/le-roi-du-mont-ventoux

Jeff : 58'03"
Pantani 58'53" !!!

PS It seems to be episode 4 of a series of five 26 min documentaries by Philippe Kohly.
Only episode 5 (Puy de Dôme9 is now visible on the web.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFClu6CsBQE&list=FLsX1_bJsjWOIKrPZVlkjvBg&index=8

 

[Franklin]

Oh Checchini knew for sure about the doping and probably knew how to co-ordinate it with training,

I just don't think he encouraged or facilitated it.

Sorry, read that part a few times and then come to your senses. That contradiction is so large nobody with haf a brain could swallow it as easy as you do...

The doping scheme follows the training, not the other way around. Basically you say: Checchini's decided what to use, but he sure wasn't encouraging or facilitating it.