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Did Armstrong arrange for Floyd to test positive?

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Aug 13, 2009
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I doubt that Landis' positive resulted from testosterone in his blood bags. The IRMS test showed that Landis was using synthetic testosterone throughout the Tour, not just on one stage.

Jesus Manzano said that his team received advanced noticed of OOC testing from a source at the UCI who also provided the same services to USPS/Disco. Silvia Schneck, UCI board member said that Armstrong received special treatment from the UCI that was a conflict of interest.

It appears that when you leave the team the "Special Treatment" ends
 
Mar 10, 2009
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pedaling squares said:
Lance Armstrong caused Hurricane Katrina, the psunami that wiped out much of Thailand, the earthquake in Italy, and the Californian wildfires. Do you really think he has the time and energy to waste on Floyd Landis?

Wtf is a psunami? Oh! It must be like the 6.3 ptiramisu that fell Abruzzo Italy!

I hear tell that Armstrong is responsible for Madoff's Ponzi scheme too. He hand fed Madoff to the Feds... Christ, Armstrong led one of the biggest cycling Ponzi schemes while at Postal.

I'm tifosa, I'm jaded, and I wouldn't rule out anything. Just when I think cycling has reached the depths of depravity, it sinks a little lower.

Still, it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of an 80K ride every Sunday.

That *** Tiger Woods, on the other hand, is really destroying any hope I have of enjoying my Thursday golf game...
:p
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Watch again Epi. Not saying Floyd wasn't topped off, he probably was. And he obviously was microdosing T. But a big reason he won that stage to Morzine is strategy. And the fact that the group didn't take his break seriously enough until it was too late, and then no one would help Pereiro chase and they went for it on their own, individually attacking each other. Plus it was his favorite weather - very hot, and he doused himself with 80+ water bottles (some sticky). Stuart O'Grady says Floyd blew by him 100km from the finish. But Stuey isn't a climber, Floyd could be. And Floyd was somewhat rested from the previous day's disaster. Floyd also was running out of gas and starting to lose time on the Joux Plane, but made some of it back on the descent as he's an outstanding descender (no doping needed), and a solo rider can descend faster than a group of stragglers.
I never bought that theory. I remember what happened on the stage and even watched it again a year or so ago when I was going through old tapes. The problem is that even a normally doped rider should die at the end of of 125km solo. Especially over that parcours late in the Tour. Floyd still had something in the tank when he crossed the line.

Yes tactics played a big part, but Caisse especially and CSC also looked ragged and tired during the chase. T-Mobile also did some chasing on the flat section before the Joux-Plane and I remember Gonchar looking tired also.

Floyd may have still won the stage but he wouldn't have come close to putting 7 minutes into the yellow jersey if he didn't have some extra special help.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Epicycle said:
I never bought that theory. I remember what happened on the stage and even watched it again a year or so ago when I was going through old tapes. The problem is that even a normally doped rider should die at the end of of 125km solo. Especially over that parcours late in the Tour. Floyd still had something in the tank when he crossed the line.

Yes tactics played a big part, but Caisse especially and CSC also looked ragged and tired during the chase. T-Mobile also did some chasing on the flat section before the Joux-Plane and I remember Gonchar looking tired also.

Floyd may have still won the stage but he wouldn't have come close to putting 7 minutes into the yellow jersey if he didn't have some extra special help.
Sinkewitz was on the transfusions from Freiburg, and remember, he could not even hold Flandi's' wheel on the valleys.

Floyd got a couple of blood bags.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Watch again Epi. Not saying Floyd wasn't topped off, he probably was. And he obviously was microdosing T. But a big reason he won that stage to Morzine is strategy. And the fact that the group didn't take his break seriously enough until it was too late, and then no one would help Pereiro chase and they went for it on their own, individually attacking each other. Plus it was his favorite weather - very hot, and he doused himself with 80+ water bottles (some sticky).
come on Alpe, I did not think you bought the BS.

Stuart O'Grady says Floyd blew by him 100km from the finish. But Stuey isn't a climber, Floyd could be. And Floyd was somewhat rested from the previous day's disaster.
nope, vehemently disagree that his jour sans could have actually rested him. This would have taxed his physiology more.

Floyd also was running out of gas and starting to lose time on the Joux Plane, but made some of it back on the descent as he's an outstanding descender (no doping needed), and a solo rider can descend faster than a group of stragglers.
they were riding for GC. How can you classify them as stragglers?

He also writes about it in his book. Half of that book is fiction, but the part about these days in the Tour break it down very well and don't smack of BS. Not saying he was clean. No way. But watch the stage again.
you mean, half had a tenuous relationship to real events, based on facts, but with lots o' license.

BTW. No possible way Lance had Floyd spiked, or anyone else for that matter. No way. What likely happened is that USPS had the most refined, and careful doping program in sports, Floyd tried to take what he learned with him, and combine it with Phonak's program, and blew it. But just barely.
not possible, but if it was, he would be there. Armstrong won't let Contador win 7 Tours.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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Epicycle said:
I never bought that theory. I remember what happened on the stage and even watched it again a year or so ago when I was going through old tapes. The problem is that even a normally doped rider should die at the end of of 125km solo. Floyd still had something in the tank when he crossed the line.

I had to have a bit of a chuckle at this line. A normally doped rider.

Kind of sums up our sport really. Riders normally dope and this thread is about a rider who supposedly had better dope than the other riders ... but got caught.

No longer do we compare clean riders against dirty riders ... but doped riders and super doped riders.

That's not an attack btw ... just an observation
 
euphrades said:
This thread is silly and stupid. Floyd screwed up because he left the testosterone patch on for too long. The rumor I heard is that he fell asleep with it on and it caused the levels to be too high.
Where do people get this stuff?

Epicycle said:
I never bought that theory. I remember what happened on the stage and even watched it again a year or so ago when I was going through old tapes. The problem is that even a normally doped rider should die at the end of of 125km solo....

"Normally doped". I like it. I may have not gotten every factoid correct, but I think people aren't looking at the big picture from that Tour.

Blackcat. I probably am giving Floyd too much credit, but part of that is for having a big engine and a lot of talent, and motivation, and being a damned good technical rider who employed a good strategy. Things everyone dismisses and discounts. Part of my "defense" is that it's a widely repeated assumption that Floyd tanked on Stage 16, then covered his scrotum with a testosterone patch in a desperate attempt to come back, and that gave him the energy he needed to make that long break. It's just a ridiculous and absurd notion. And even if it were true, such an attempt at doping would not have given him that gain, and shown with the T:E ratio he had.

As I stated before, I am convinced he doped, throughout the Tour. It's the "normal" thing to to at this level. Either with his own blood, or some form of carrier or expander. But even then, he, and many of the others, were probably near their pinnacle of what they could do and get away with. So to think that Floyd dumped a liter of blood in his system and didn't have any values that threw up red flags, or test over the 50% hct when he probably already was near it, just doesn't make sense either.

Keep another thing in mind. Presuming what Kohl said is true, and blood doping takes 48 hours to take full effect, it makes little sense that Floyd would tank after Stage 16 as badly as he did, do a big fill-up that night, and 14 hours later be so jacked that he could launch the attack he did. Especially considering that Kloden, Rasmussen, Sinkewitz etc. were very, very likely on their own refined programs as well. Did Floyd really all of a sudden dope that much better?

I've said before many times, the guy doped. I'm sure of it. He, and especially his legal and management team, behaved in an abhorrent manner that cost him his hide when CAS ruled on his case and fined him, and rightfully so. But I think it's both peculiar and hypocritical that because he's the guy that tested positive at the Tour (barely), that somehow he's the guy that doped, and he is the cheater and bad guy. Implying somehow the others were clean or something, or that he had little talent otherwise; so we need to make sure we continually rail against him and drive him into the mud, while practically ignoring the big picture. Both his actual abilities on the bike, and the systemic, sport-wide doping that was taking place during the time he was racing, and likely still exists today.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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but he could have doped and the blood had yet to take effect.

also, his 'crit went from something like 43, to about 47, or was it 45 to 47.

It went up a few points. That is a flag ;)
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Alpe, also on Floyd having a big engine, yeah, perhaps, perhaps when charged. But the guy could never win a MTB World Cup, he was a mediocre mtb rider. He only got results when he started charging on the road, had a good l'Avenir around 2001 when he was on Mercury. But he was surely flying high.

If the guy had talent, he would have swept all before him in the late 90's in the mtb, when that millieu was still relatively clean. You would expect a Tour winner calibre rider, to just blast the talent on the mtb circuit then.
 
That's hard to say though, isn't it? I don't think though that Floyd was a human guinea pig (forget the French term) like Virenque. And his 2005 Tour performance was pretty good after having his blood flushed down the toilet (ninth, 12 mins back). We're back to trying to determine how dirty is dirty. Though considering Lance's revolutionary change, who knows what USPS programs were like, and how they affected Floyd, and just what Phonak and Floyd were doing for certain. We don't know.

I should not have said those chasing Floyd were "stragglers", my bad.

I guess it just irks me when people (not you, you know better) have this lofty notion that after operation puerto all the cheats were tossed. But after tanking on stage 16, Floyd took a bunch of testosterone that gave him the strength to come back; when it's highly likely that most everyone else at that level were still doped to one degree or another.

Aren't you the guy that's just about certain even Brad Wiggins doped at this year's Tour?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
That's hard to say though, isn't it? I don't think though that Floyd was a human guinea pig (forget the French term) like Virenque. And his 2005 Tour performance was pretty good after having his blood flushed down the toilet (ninth, 12 mins back). We're back to trying to determine how dirty is dirty. Though considering Lance's revolutionary change, who knows what USPS programs were like, and how they affected Floyd, and just what Phonak and Floyd were doing for certain. We don't know.

I should not have said those chasing Floyd were "stragglers", my bad.

I guess it just irks me when people (not you, you know better) have this lofty notion that after operation puerto all the cheats were tossed. But after tanking on stage 16, Floyd took a bunch of testosterone that gave him the strength to come back; when it's highly likely that most everyone else at that level were still doped to one degree or another.

Aren't you the guy that's just about certain even Brad Wiggins doped at this year's Tour?
"even" Brad Wiggins? lol. Ofcourse, there is no even. The qualifier is not necessary Alpe.

On Wiggins, you talk of a blood bag down the toilet. I concede that. But I want to know, how "over-capacity" he came in at. Was he one or two units transfused, before the Tour even started. Ofcourse he would have been.

You are right in the testo, that did nothing physically. It may have had a psychological effect, and re-energised his morale and underpinned the aggression. He got his mojo back, and could have taken 72 virgins with him in his boudoir had he been a martyr.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I guess it just irks me when people (not you, you know better) have this lofty notion that after operation puerto all the cheats were tossed. But after tanking on stage 16, Floyd took a bunch of testosterone that gave him the strength to come back; when it's highly likely that most everyone else at that level were still doped to one degree or another.
What I heard is that testosterone really don't boost short term performance very much. Certainly not enough to account for landis' comeback. That's where the idea that the testosterone came from a blood transfusion comes from I think.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Cerberus said:
What I heard is that testosterone really don't boost short term performance very much. Certainly not enough to account for landis' comeback. That's where the idea that the testosterone came from a blood transfusion comes from I think.
but testosterone can boost the mood, and the psychological intangibles.

Would Landis have been as confident and aggressive if he did not have the exogenous boost? The tactics and willingness to throw it to the wind, were as much a function of the ride, as his boosted physiology.
 
Well, he was microdosing it, hence all the CI analysis retests showing positive. Joe Papp and others stated it helps a little bit with recovery. But I don't think Floyd jacked on T for that stage. He was on a program and probably just stuck to it. Or he could have screwed up and done a little extra T, thinking he had skated so far with no problems.... He may have topped off the night before, or day before that though. Maybe that blood had T, which combined with extra T put him over the limit. Again, who knows the details for sure.

You know, it's like the baseball question. If Roger Clemes struck out Barry Bonds, should it count?

"even" Brad Wiggins? lol. Of course, there is no even. The qualifier is not necessary Alpe.

Yes BC, "of course". :cool:
 
blackcat said:
Alpe, also on Floyd having a big engine, yeah, perhaps, perhaps when charged. But the guy could never win a MTB World Cup, he was a mediocre mtb rider. He only got results when he started charging on the road, had a good l'Avenir around 2001 when he was on Mercury. But he was surely flying high.

If the guy had talent, he would have swept all before him in the late 90's in the mtb, when that millieu was still relatively clean. You would expect a Tour winner calibre rider, to just blast the talent on the mtb circuit then.

He couldn't even win a NORBA. Kirk Molday, who could, told me he couldn't believe that this dude suddenly drilling it on the road for Mercury was the same journeyman pro he'd kick every weekend.

How'd Floyd end up with Mercury anyway? I can't remember why he got a gig with Wordin. What did he do to impress?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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blackcat said:
but he could have doped and the blood had yet to take effect.

also, his 'crit went from something like 43, to about 47, or was it 45 to 47.

It went up a few points. That is a flag ;)

it went up to 48.5
 
Aug 13, 2009
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hulkgogan said:
He couldn't even win a NORBA. Kirk Molday, who could, told me he couldn't believe that this dude suddenly drilling it on the road for Mercury was the same journeyman pro he'd kick every weekend.

How'd Floyd end up with Mercury anyway? I can't remember why he got a gig with Wordin. What did he do to impress?

As I remember it Floyd entered a hilly road race and road away from the field. Wordin signed him to a stagiaire deal for a few months. He rode very well in the climbs in some of the domestic races. . He then signed for a full Pro contract.

I remember being very surprised this guy could suddenly climb like Pantani.
 
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Race Radio said:
As I remember it Floyd entered a hilly road race and road away from the field. Wordin signed him to a stagiaire deal for a few months. He rode very well in the climbs in some of the domestic races. . He then signed for a full Pro contract.

I remember being very surprised this guy could suddenly climb like Pantani.

It was the Boulevard RR in San Diego County in 2000 or 2001 (not sure of the year).

Wordin made a total mess of Mercury/Viatel... but he was pretty good at spotting talent. I think Baden Cooke was brought to the pro ranks because Wordin gave him a chance.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
It was the Boulevard RR in San Diego County in 2000 or 2001 (not sure of the year).

Wordin made a total mess of Mercury/Viatel... but he was pretty good at spotting talent. I think Baden Cooke was brought to the pro ranks because Wordin gave him a chance.

Actually I think the race were he performed as a stagiaire was the Cascade classic in 1999. IIRC He made the Podium after leading much of the race. He also did well racing unattached in a race early that year but I cannot remember which one.
 
Cerberus said:
What I heard is that testosterone really don't boost short term performance very much. Certainly not enough to account for landis' comeback. That's where the idea that the testosterone came from a blood transfusion comes from I think.

Now, w/ full admission that I'm not an endocrinologist, I can tell you that the application of testosterone, either by patch, IM or oral, will in fact produce amazing sensations within 24 hours that could be game-changing. The source of those sensations almost becomes irrelevant (ie, elevated mood vs. actual physiological recovery)...if the rider FEELS magically recovered, expect him to ride like it.
 
A

Anonymous

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Race Radio said:
Actually I think the race were he performed as a stagiaire was the Cascade classic in 1999. IIRC He made the Podium after leading much of the race. He also did well racing unattached in a race early that year but I cannot remember which one.

I think you are right... FL was racing unattached early in 1999. It may have been a combination of his performance at Boulevard that year and the Simi Valley group ride. Seems to remember Floyd was riding for Mercury pretty early that year.
 

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