Did Armstrong arrange for Floyd to test positive?

[blackcat]

Floyd could not tt a lick, he was about 24 then.

We could easily do a meta trust.but blogspot, about Floyd's NORBA results, his World Cup results, and some of these results, where he suddenly became a superstar with a 92 VO2max. Wonder how much his VO was measured at, when clean? 80?

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/sep99/avenir993.html
Stage 3, Saint-Brevin-les-Pins - Pornic, ITT, 19.5 kms:

1. Bradley McGee (Aus) La Française des Jeux 23.22.89
2. Alberto Martinez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.34
3. Laszlo Bodrogi (Rus) Saint-Quentin Oktos MBK 0.40
4. Franck Bouyer (Fra) La Française des Jeux 0.41
5. Danis Menchov (Rus) Banesto 0.45
6. Frédéric Finot (Fra) Crédit Agricole 0.49
7. Nicolas Fritsch (Fra) Saint-Quentin Oktos MBK 0.49
8. Marcel Duyn (Ned) Rabobank 0.51
9. Marcel Gono (Aus) Crédit Agricole 0.54
10. Thor Hushovd (Nor) Norway 0.55
11. David Clinger (USA) Mercury Cycling Team 0.56
12. Aaron Olson (USA) US Team 0.57
13. Jörg Ludewig (Ger) Team Gerolsteiner 1.00
14. Christopher Jenner (Nzl) Crédit Agricole 1.08
15. Sandro Guttinger (Swi) Switzerland 1.09
16. Sven Montgomery (Swi) Post Swiss Team 1.11
17. Stéphane Berges (Fra) Big Mat-Auber 93 1.15
18. Unai Osa (Spa) Banesto 1.16
19. Matt De Canio (USA) US Team 1.17
20. David Latasa (Spa) Banesto 1.19
21. Davy Daniels (Bel) Vlaanderen 2002 1.19
22. Jean-Michel Tessier (Fra) La Française des Jeux 1.20
23. Anthony Morin (Fra) La Française des Jeux 1.21
24. Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 1.24
25. Christian Poos (Lux) Luxembourg 1.26
26. Danny Pate (USA) US Team 1.27
27. Bjornar Vestol (Nor) Norway 1.31
28. Guillaume Auger (Fra) Big Mat-Auber 93 1.32
29. Edouard Gritsoun (Rus) Team Gerolsteiner 1.32
30. Benoît Poilvet (Fra) Crédit Agricole 1.33
31. Aitor Silloniz (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 1.34
32. Fabrice Salanson (Fra) Vendee U Pays-de-la-Loire 1.34
33. Floyd Landis (USA) Mercury Cycling Team 1.36
34. Cédric Celarier (Fra) Saint-Quentin Oktos MBK 1.40
35. Oleg Joukov (Rus) Big Mat-Auber 93 1.40
36. Stéphane Ravaleu (Fra) Bretagne 1.41
37. Yoann Le Boulanger (Fra) France 1.41
38. Wilfried Cretskens (Bel) Vlaanderen 2002 1.42
39. Matthew Hayman (Ned) Rabobank 1.43
40. Jay Sweet (Aus) Big Mat-Auber 93 1.43
41. Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Vendee U Pays-de-la-Loire 1.45
42. Filip Branko (Slo) Team Gerolsteiner 1.46
43. Stéphane Auge (Fra) France 1.47
44. Freddy Ravaleu (Fra) France 1.51
45. Thierry Loder (Fra) Cofidis 1.52
46. Jérome Delbove (Fra) Cofidis 1.52
47. Peio Arreitunandia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 1.53
48. Coen Boerman (Ned) Rabobank 1.53
49. Thorwald Veneberg (Ned) Rabobank 1.53
50. Steve Vermaut (Bel) Vlaanderen 2002 1.55
51. Sébastien Joly (Fra) Vendee U Pays-de-la-Loire 1.55
52. Lenaïc Olivier (Fra) Bretagne 1.59
53. Ludovic Turpin (Fra) France 1.59
54. Gerhard Trampusch (Aut) Austria 2.00
55. Stéphane Krafft (Fra) Cofidis 2.02
56. Steve de Wolf (Bel) Cofidis 2.03
57. Yvan Haymoz (Swi) Post Swiss Team 2.05
58. Tom Flammang (Lux) Luxembourg 2.06
59. Franck Renier (Fra) Vendee U Pays-de-la-Loire 2.07
60. Mikel Pradera (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 2.07
61. Justin Spinelli (USA) Mercury Cycling Team 2.08
62. Marcel Strauss (Swi) Post Swiss Team 2.10
63. Igor Flores (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 2.11
64. David Berthou (Fra) Bretagne 2.12
65. Alexandre Botcharov (Rus) Besson Chaussures-Nippon Hodo 2.14
66. Patrice Halgand (Fra) France 2.15
67. Linas Balcunias (Ltu) Saint-Quentin Oktos MBK 2.16
68. Thomas Muhlbacher (Aut) Team Gerolsteiner 2.17
69. Candido Barbosa (Por) Banesto 2.18
70. Glenn D'Hollander (Bel) Vlaanderen 2002 2.19
71. Rene Haselbacher (Aut) Team Gerolsteiner 2.20
72. Peter Wrolich (Aut) Team Gerolsteiner 2.21
73. Pierrick Fedrigo (Fra) Crédit Agricole 2.21
74. Benoît Luminet (Fra) Besson Chaussures-Nippon Hodo 2.23
75. Christian Charriere (Swi) Post Swiss Team 2.24
76. Kurt Schwarzlmuller (Aut) Austria 2.24
77. Janek Tombak (Est) Cofidis 2.24
78. Loïc Lamouller (Fra) Big Mat-Auber 93 2.26
79. Stéphane Couge (Fra) Normandie 2.27
80. Alexandre Chouffe (Fra) Big Mat-Auber 93 2.28
81. Stefan Van Dyck (Ned) Rabobank 2.29
82. Ludovic Vanhee (Fra) Bretagne 2.29
83. Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Vendee U Pays-de-la-Loire 2.30
84. Sébastien Hinault (Fra) Crédit Agricole 2.31
85. Laurent Estadieu (Fra) France 2.31
86. Jurgen Guns (Bel) Vlaanderen 2002 2.36
87. Jean-Patrick Nazon (Fra) La Française des Jeux 2.36
88. Pablo Lastras (Spa) Banesto 2.37
89. Rune Jogert (Nor) Norway 2.37
90. Frédéric Mainguenaud (Fra) Vendee U Pays-de-la-Loire 2.38
91. Cédric Fragniere (Swi) Post Swiss Team 2.39
92. Pablo Soler (Spa) Mercury Cycling Team 2.40
93. Gisle Vihoyr (Nor) Norway 2.41
94. Franck Trotel (Fra) Saint-Quentin Oktos MBK 2.42
95. Christophe Guillome (Fra) Cofidis 2.45
96. Patrick Calcagni (Swi) Switzerland 2.46
97. Sylvain Anquetil (Fra) Normandie 2.47
98. Tom Stremersch (Bel) Vlaanderen 2002 2.48
99. Stéphane Delimauges (Fra) Normandie 2.48
100. Stéphane Auroux (Fra) Besson Chaussures-Nippon Hodo 2.52
101. Addy Engels (Ned) Rabobank 2.56
102. Marc Vanacker (Lux) Luxembourg 2.58
103. Alberto Benito (Spa) Banesto 2.59
104. Damien Nazon (Fra) La Française des Jeux 3.03
105. Jesus Zarate (Mex) Mercury Cycling Team 3.08
106. Benoît Volery (Swi) Switzerland 3.09
107. Pietro Zucconi (Swi) Post Swiss Team 3.11
108. Tony Cavet (Fra) Normandie 3.13
109. Saulius Ruskis (Rus) Saint-Quentin Oktos MBK 3.14
110. Kim Kirchen (Lux) Luxembourg 3.17
111. Denis Salmon (Fra) Bretagne 3.19
112. Cyrille Prise (Fra) Normandie 3.19
113. Martin Fischerlehner (Aut) Austria 3.19
114. Martin Moser (Aut) Austria 3.20
115. Frédéric Lecrosnier (Fra) Normandie 3.31
116. Serguei Yakovlev (Kaz) Besson Chaussures-Nippon Hodo 3.32
117. Ludovic Martin (Fra) Bretagne 3.32
118. Joshua Thornton (USA) US Team 3.33
119. Marco Roth (Swi) Switzerland 3.33
120. Mads Kaggestad (Nor) Norway 3.36
121. Patrick Riedesser (Aut) Austria 3.39
122. Sébastien Laroche (Fra) Besson Chaussures-Nippon Hodo 3.39
123. Vincenzo Centrone (Lux) Luxembourg 3.45
124. Mickaël Leveau (Fra) Besson Chaussures-Nippon Hodo 3.49
125. Morten Hegreberg (Nor) Norway 3.54
126. Robert Dapice (USA) US Team 3.57
127. Uwe Straumann (Swi) Switzerland 3.59
128. Michel Klinder (Swi) Switzerland 4.06
129. Max Becker (Lux) Luxembourg 4.08
130. Danny Lopez (USA) US Team 4.31

 

[Cerberus]

Now, w/ full admission that I'm not an endocrinologist, I can tell you that the application of testosterone, either by patch, IM or oral, will in fact produce amazing sensations within 24 hours that could be game-changing. The source of those sensations almost becomes irrelevant (ie, elevated mood vs. actual physiological recovery)...if the rider FEELS magically recovered, expect him to ride like it.

Personal experience?

Anyways, I saw FL ride. I'm not expert so perhaps my impressions aren't reliable, but I don't think I've ever seen anything like it - not from a GC contender anyways. I have trouble believing that could be attributed to psychological factors alone or even mainly. Perhaps you could achieve an effect like that on a normal person by making them push themselves harder. GC riders however are seriously pushing some basic physiological limits and I don't believe psychology can significantly move those limits. If it could you could give a rider a shot of saline tell him it was EPO and watch him blow away the competition and never get caught in doping tests.

 

[blackcat]

Personal experience?

Anyways, I saw FL ride. I'm not expert so perhaps my impressions aren't reliable, but I don't think I've ever seen anything like it - not from a GC contender anyways. I have trouble believing that could be attributed to psychological factors alone or even mainly. Perhaps you could achieve an effect like that on a normal person by making them push themselves harder. GC riders however are seriously pushing some basic physiological limits and I don't believe psychology can significantly move those limits. If it could you could give a rider a shot of saline tell him it was EPO and watch him blow away the competition and never get caught in doping tests.

don't think that is what Joe was saying, you misinterpreted it.

In the third week of a GT, even the highly charged riders, are on their edge. They have nothing more to give. They would not have bet Floyd would have been able to stay away. Floyd's confidence, allowed him to get all out of his physiology.

Example, if all riders, were to do a 220 km Queen stage timetrial, just a chrono, there may be 90 minutes difference, or more, for some of the sprinters who cannot climb, to the GC riders. And even with the GC riders, their may be 15 minutes or more difference, even between 1 and 2. What open road racing does, it gives everyone an opportunity to just ride below their threshold, and it does not quite require, you do be confident and on egde, to put out 100% of what you have. Floyd rode tremendously, right at threshold. The others let him go, got 10 minutes, but then their domestiques could not cut into it, they rode for too long, sub-max, and when they rode on their limit, they still could not pull Floyd back, as his limit managed to match them, even when he had been in the wind for 200km.

Great ride, but his psychology played something. Look at this year, Cancellara told Evans to go back, and he finally gave in, why could have Evans not just ridden them off his wheel? If I remember, Landis had Sinkewitz on his wheel, for probably 50 km, then just detached him.

 

[Cerberus]

don't think that is what Joe was saying, you misinterpreted it.

In the third week of a GT, even the highly charged riders, are on their edge. They have nothing more to give. They would not have bet Floyd would have been able to stay away. Floyd's confidence, allowed him to get all out of his physiology.

Example, if all riders, were to do a 220 km Queen stage timetrial, just a chrono, there may be 90 minutes difference, or more, for some of the sprinters who cannot climb, to the GC riders. And even with the GC riders, their may be 15 minutes or more difference, even between 1 and 2. What open road racing does, it gives everyone an opportunity to just ride below their threshold, and it does not quite require, you do be confident and on egde, to put out 100% of what you have. Floyd rode tremendously, right at threshold. The others let him go, got 10 minutes, but then their domestiques could not cut into it, they rode for too long, sub-max, and when they rode on their limit, they still could not pull Floyd back, as his limit managed to match them, even when he had been in the wind for 200km.

Great ride, but his psychology played something. Look at this year, Cancellara told Evans to go back, and he finally gave in, why could have Evans not just ridden them off his wheel? If I remember, Landis had Sinkewitz on his wheel, for probably 50 km, then just detached him.

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. In order for psychology to play a significant role there has to be a significant gap between how hard the GC contenders normally push themselves and what's physiologically possible for them. Now as I said I'm not an expert so my opinion is in no way authoritative, but I'm just not convinced that there is much of a difference between and if there isn't then psychology can't account for FL's feat. I might be dense here, but are you saying the gap is larger than I think or is your point something else.

 

[blackcat]

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. In order for psychology to play a significant role there has to be a significant gap between how hard the GC contenders normally push themselves and what's physiologically possible for them. Now as I said I'm not an expert so my opinion is in no way authoritative, but I'm just not convinced that there is much of a difference between and if there isn't then psychology can't account for FL's feat. I might be dense here, but are you saying the gap is larger than I think or is your point something else.

no, you aren't getting it.

Floyd was given a little bit of time. He did blow some riders like Rogers and Kloden away, when they tried to mark him, but if the entire GC contenders, rode together, they could have pulled him back. But they felt like he could not sustain such a tempo, and let him go out above 10 minutes.

Floyd's psychology played a part in his audacious move. The GC contenders also played a part, with their tactical decision to let him go.

3rd week of a GT. No one will be within one millimetre of each other, if it was a chrono. Riding against their competitors, gives some psychological aid.

3rd week, unlikely riders can ride at 100% of their physiological limit because of psychology. They are beaten down. So boost to their mood, aggression and confidence, can be an aid to performance. Physiology is still a limiter. But in the third week, when fatigue is added in, psychology becomes important and indeed, a limiter.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Great ride, but his psychology played something. Look at this year, Cancellara told Evans to go back, and he finally gave in, why could have Evans not just ridden them off his wheel? If I remember, Landis had Sinkewitz on his wheel, for probably 50 km, then just detached him.

That's a very good analysis BC. Especially if what Joe says is true. Adding the fact we know Sinkewitz was jacked at the time. He didn't detach him so much as Patrick just finally cracked. I now need to go back and watch the stage again. He did end up taking an eight minute bite out of them. We then end up with a fun arguing point as to where if they had chased sooner, and he were "normally doped" (I love that phrase, btw), he should have brought back what, 3-4 minutes?

There's also the question still as to why Floyd really bonked as badly as he did the day before. He completely cracked, beyond even the normal hunger knock, losing 10 minutes in the last 10km. I probably could have kept up with him at that point he was going so slow. No one discusses this.

I can tell you that the application of testosterone, either by patch, IM or oral, will in fact produce amazing sensations within 24 hours that could be game-changing...

Volume/ratio amount? Versus microdosing? Hence, if Floyd was microdosing already as the retests show, and used 40-60% more T gel/patch time the night before, would it make that big of a difference? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking.

Personal experience?

I think you can find all you need simply by clicking on the links in Joe's signature.

Floyd could not tt a lick, he was about 24 then.

That is something fascinating, because let's presume for a moment he's riding clean on Ouch/Maxxis these days, and the hip is okay. All he has done is gotten into some breaks and acted as a decoy mostly for Sutherland. He has shown brief flashes of climbing power here and there. However, his ITT times stink. They are astoundingly weak.

 

[Oldbiker]

Now, w/ full admission that I'm not an endocrinologist, I can tell you that the application of testosterone, either by patch, IM or oral, will in fact produce amazing sensations within 24 hours that could be game-changing. The source of those sensations almost becomes irrelevant (ie, elevated mood vs. actual physiological recovery)...if the rider FEELS magically recovered, expect him to ride like it.

Joe,since you have been there, I respect your opinion that it may make you feel great to take Testosterone, but can it really produce the kind of performance that FL did on stage 17. You need more than "feel great" to ride like that. Surely part of the reason for his success that day, was that it was such a mountainous stage, that the peloton did not think he would last and could not organize a chase properly. if he was taking Testosterone why was he not positive on other days? Also give him credit, he has done some great climbs in the past.He may have taken something but I don't think it was what he was penalized for.

 

[blackcat]

That's a very good analysis BC. Especially if what Joe says is true. Adding the fact we know Sinkewitz was jacked at the time. He didn't detach him so much as Patrick just finally cracked. I now need to go back and watch the stage again. He did end up taking an eight minute bite out of them. We then end up with a fun arguing point as to where if they had chased sooner, and he were "normally doped" (I love that phrase, btw), he should have brought back what, 3-4 minutes?

There's also the question still as to why Floyd really bonked as badly as he did the day before. He completely cracked, beyond even the normal hunger knock, losing 10 minutes in the last 10km. I probably could have kept up with him at that point he was going so slow. No one discusses this.


Volume/ratio amount? Versus microdosing? Hence, if Floyd was microdosing already as the retests show, and used 40-60% more T gel/patch time the night before, would it make that big of a difference? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking.


I think you can find all you need simply by clicking on the links in Joe's signature.


That is something fascinating, because let's presume for a moment he's riding clean on Ouch/Maxxis these days, and the hip is okay. All he has done is gotten into some breaks and acted as a decoy mostly for Sutherland. He has shown brief flashes of climbing power here and there. However, his ITT times stink. They are astoundingly weak.

guarantee he won't be testing thru the roof, that he was at with USPS and pre-Tour training camps with Ferrari, out-testing Armstrong, and at 92 VO2 which was promulgated.

This really goes to Beroepsrenner's "donkeys into throubred" paradigm counter. He reckons you cannot turn a donkey into a thoroughbred.

Landis and Frank Schleck suggest otherwise. Evans could atleast tt and climb, star on the mtb circuit, number one in the world, and a podium in the tt on the road, when he was a jnr mtb'er. And a lightweight.

There are donkeys, no doubt about that, who are great responders and push the margins. Wait til another anglophone keels over and dies like Salanson and Nolf. Has not been one since Simpson.

Only a matter of time before Brailsford, Vaughters, Bob and Bill Stapleton, will have someone not wake-up in the morning. Let us see how the jingoistic Anglophone press reconcile that.

 

[Anonymous]

Joe,since you have been there, I respect your opinion that it may make you feel great to take Testosterone, but can it really produce the kind of performance that FL did on stage 17. You need more than "feel great" to ride like that. Surely part of the reason for his success that day, was that it was such a mountainous stage, that the peloton did not think he would last and could not organize a chase properly. if he was taking Testosterone why was he not positive on other days? Also give him credit, he has done some great climbs in the past.He may have taken something but I don't think it was what he was penalized for.

Your biggest problem here is the word "Synthetic." Look it up, and what relation it has to FLandis and then get back to us.

 

[blackcat]

Testosterone raises your blood pressure and makes you blow up quicker. This is the opposite of EPO which lowers your blood pressure and helps you breath. Test is counterproductive for endurance sports. The only use for it would be to take it after a long training ride, when you know you will not ride again for at least a few days and it will be out of the system. That would help the muscles repair and grow stronger during your rest, but you wouldn't have time to do that during a tour.

Hasbara alert!

 

[blackcat]

Why are you calling me an Israeli and what has this got to do with a cycling forum? Maybe you're in the wrong place.

when was I calling you an Israeli you fool. Hasbara is a euphemism for propaganda. If you quack like Goebbels, a propagandist you are. If you don't like it, alter your behaviour.

 

[blackcat]

Hasbara is the hebrew name for Israel's public relations efforts. This has no place on a cycling forum. Try to stick to the issues and stop trolling.

Hasbara is propaganda. BPC is a propagandist. ergo BPC = a Hasbara agent.

 

[blackcat]

Where is the propaganda in writing about the effects of testosterone?

you write from a position of ignorance. It is as if you have been given a sheet of talking points from Public Strategies, to roll out in defense of Armstrong. I hope you are being compensated.

Because quite frankly, I am whipping your @rse, and would take comfort in the fact Armstrong being billed for your time.

 

[joe_papp]

No I am speaking from a position of experience. I have used the synthetic derivative of testosterone Oxandrolone before and I can tell you it does not assist cycling in the short term. It just helps you with recovery over a longer period of days, not over night. Maybe these guys are micro dosing - I was not - but i can't see it helping in a tour scenaro. Anything that raises your blood pressure is not good for endurance sports.

No, what you can tell us is that your use of oxandralone didn't help your cycling in the short term.

 

[hulkgogan]

guarantee he won't be testing thru the roof, that he was at with USPS and pre-Tour training camps with Ferrari, out-testing Armstrong, and at 92 VO2 which was promulgated.

This really goes to Beroepsrenner's "donkeys into throubred" paradigm counter. He reckons you cannot turn a donkey into a thoroughbred.

Landis and Frank Schleck suggest otherwise. Evans could atleast tt and climb, star on the mtb circuit, number one in the world, and a podium in the tt on the road, when he was a jnr mtb'er. And a lightweight.

There are donkeys, no doubt about that, who are great responders and push the margins. Wait til another anglophone keels over and dies like Salanson and Nolf. Has not been one since Simpson.

Only a matter of time before Brailsford, Vaughters, Bob and Bill Stapleton, will have someone not wake-up in the morning. Let us see how the jingoistic Anglophone press reconcile that.

Ok, I'm with you, but I've always been of two minds with Floyd, is he a donkey or not? What are we to make of this VO2 at 90 when he was still a teen that's been bandied about as part of the Floyd legend? 90 is no donkey.

Ie. http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200607/tour-de-france-2006-floyd-landis-5.html

Yet as we've noted his senior MTB results were pretty lame.

Having said that, I do have a personal experience that supports the Floyd numbers and still not lighting the world on fire. Svein Tuft. His VO2 measured 86 one year into the sport in 2000 (I know this cause I was being tested at the same session). And Svein rocked...locally. Yet when he went to the US pro circuit he ended up Horner's biatchi and quit after 3 or 4 years.

What I'm saying is, it is possible to have great physiological capacity and not light it up. At some point Floyd got on the juice and that was his tipping point. And so I guess I'm arguing Floyd wasn't a donkey, despite the weak MTB results. Unless of course, that testing 90 stuff at 19 was bull****. Though there is precedent to support big numbers getting coaches (e.g. Wordin) excited. Back to Tuft, the CCA crapped their pants when they got those numbers and sent him straight to Avenir. Vaughters himself has said, quite amusingly, that he kept getting contracts in Spain despite sucking cause he had good numbers.

 

[blackcat]

Ok, I'm with you, but I've always been of two minds with Floyd, is he a donkey or not? What are we to make of this VO2 at 90 when he was still a teen that's been bandied about as part of the Floyd legend? 90 is no donkey.

Ie. http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200607/tour-de-france-2006-floyd-landis-5.html

Yet as we've noted his senior MTB results were pretty lame.

Having said that, I do have a personal experience that supports the Floyd numbers and still not lighting the world on fire. Svein Tuft. His VO2 measured 86 one year into the sport in 2000 (I know this cause I was being tested at the same session). And Svein rocked...locally. Yet when he went to the US pro circuit he ended up Horner's biatchi and quit after 3 or 4 years.

What I'm saying is, it is possible to have great physiological capacity and not light it up. At some point Floyd got on the juice and that was his tipping point. And so I guess I'm arguing Floyd wasn't a donkey, despite the weak MTB results. Unless of course, that testing 90 stuff at 19 was bull****. Though there is precedent to support big numbers getting coaches (e.g. Wordin) excited. Back to Tuft, the CCA crapped their pants when they got those numbers and sent him straight to Avenir. Vaughters himself has said, quite amusingly, that he kept getting contracts in Spain despite sucking cause he had good numbers.

I reckon the VO2 number was probably made up. It was bull****. In another Outside article, Bill Stapleton talks about Armstrong's apotheosis, I think in relation to either the Tour, or Sydney 2000. The marketing and mythologising that goes into selling these brands to corporate America should not be underestimated. The justification for performances that are not credible, straight from central casting. Floyd has his endorsement from Smith and Nephew lined up, a big article in the NY Times weekend magazine, a fortnight before the Tour, and a narrative about hip replacement. It ended up being a ball on the femur resurfacing, or inside hip. But, not to worry, he had lined up Smith and Nephew, equivalent to Armstrong's Bristol Meyers. Hamilton comes out with a foundation. Spin, marketing, mythologising. I do not think these individuals have any character and realise what the real communication is when you scrub the surface, this disinformation, lying, and money grubbing.

Everyone is using Armstrong 101. I would prefer a more organic character, someone, anyone change the paradigm.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

There are donkeys, no doubt about that, who are great responders and push the margins. Wait til another anglophone keels over and dies like Salanson and Nolf. Has not been one since Simpson.

Only a matter of time before Brailsford, Vaughters, Bob and Bill Stapleton, will have someone not wake-up in the morning. Let us see how the jingoistic Anglophone press reconcile that.

But they'll use the same spin/denial machine they do now, no? "He was on his own", "Didn't follow the team much", "Had his own doctors against team rules", "We can't follow everyone all the time", "What this really is, is just a tragedy". Etc. etc. etc.

And you left out Vicente Lopez-Carril, Marc Demeyer, Geert Van de Walle, Bert Oosterbosch and Joaquim Halupczok.

Though yes, having someone fall over and die on the bike in a race from doping will be quite dramatic, to say the least. I just think there is so much greed out there, and doping is so possible, it won't change that much.

Everyone is using Armstrong 101. I would prefer a more organic character, someone, anyone change the paradigm.

And people wonder why I don't like nike.

 

[Cloxxki]

If the guy had talent, he would have swept all before him in the late 90's in the mtb, when that millieu was still relatively clean. You would expect a Tour winner calibre rider, to just blast the talent on the mtb circuit then.

That an interesting assumption. Clean MTB racing in the late 90's. Did the even regularly test it back then?
MTB is a specific sport though, and even if the guy is a great descender, that doesn't make the start-stop nature of MTB ideal for his body. Myself, I am born for the MTB (at my modest level) yet totally sukk on the road.

 

[blackcat]

That an interesting assumption. Clean MTB racing in the late 90's. Did the even regularly test it back then?
MTB is a specific sport though, and even if the guy is a great descender, that doesn't make the start-stop nature of MTB ideal for his body. Myself, I am born for the MTB (at my modest level) yet totally sukk on the road.

in 1996 Jerome Chiotti won the Worlds, but the next year, he handed the jersey over to the second placed Swiss rider, when he discovered the mtb circuit was basically clean. Chiotti was on EPO having crossed from the road.

But the mtb circuit now is as dirty as the road.

 

[hulkgogan]

Molday was clean and he got 4th in 1997. In 1999 he went home before the start cause buddy Rasmussen was keeping EPO in the fridge in the place they were staying.

True story.