Dirtiest active DS

[craig1985]

I think you could chuck in Neil Stephens who has been with Lib Seguros and now with Caisse, Vaughters who has been with USPS instead of Madiot or Sergant

And rode for Festina when they got booted out of the 1998 TdF.

 

[craig1985]

I didn't vote, but i was thinking along the same lines. One other thing really nags at me about him. Vladimir Gusev was kicked off of Astana for irregular blood values, was vindicated by the Court of Arbitration for Sport and Astana had to pay Gusev, and yet he is still out of a job. I wonder what is going on with that?

Same reason why Ivan Basso can get a PT contract, but riders like Koldo Gil (who has made repeated attempts to the UCI to use his DNA to clear his name from OP, which the UCI have repeatedly refuse to do), Michael Rasmussen (right or wrong, he has done his time given to him), Roberto Heras, Jorg Jaschke (who broke omerta) all can't get a pro contract. And then there is Patrik Sinkewitz who also broke omerta and rides for a B-grade Czech team (with all due respect to PSK Whirlpool – Author) as a result.

Welcome to the black list.

 

[Martinello]

I think you could chuck in Neil Stephens who has been with Lib Seguros and now with Caisse, Vaughters who has been with USPS instead of Madiot or Sergant

The list is obviously incomplete and different DS's could have been picked.
I was hoping to reflect the spectrum of high ranking DSs, from the bad boys to the cleanish guys.
I probably should have included a 'they're all clean' option or included some of the more outspoken DSs (Holzer, Fanini), just to get a good debate going.

 

[Anonymous]

The list is obviously incomplete and different DS's could have been picked.
I was hoping to reflect the spectrum of high ranking DSs, from the bad boys to the cleanish guys.
I probably should have included a 'they're all clean' option or included some of the more outspoken DSs (Holzer, Fanini), just to get a good debate going.

If you are talking about DS' for local junior teams, you MIGHT be in the ballpark with that choice. Past that, anyone who chose that option would have to be considered slightly ***.

I will say that I have incredible respect for Cristian Fanini. I wish there were more people in the world like that, much less the Pro Peloton.

 

[Race Radio]

I would say Eddy B. 84 USA Cycling Olympics coach. He knew transfusion I think Alexi Grewal was one of his specimens. Did he train Eric Heiden?

Grewal did not transfuse. Eddie B was one of Armstrong's first coaches.

 

[Ripper]

Yawn ... still so sleepy

Sargent is guilty!

 

[Ripper]

Guilty of being an incompetent boob! Too bad this was not a vote for the least useful DS!

Back on subject - even though he may not technically be a DS, he acts like one still and will likely be one at Geri Shack. Therefore, my vote goes to Bruyneel. The implications have been stated time and time again. He also has the gaul to right a damn book about nothing.

And I think someone sounded off that having many of your ex-riders get tagged does not implicate you (or something like that). My response is - seriously?

 

[Anonymous]

im not sure all the voting for JB isnt emotionally driven as opposed to actually driven by evidence... The fact is JB has a very very small record of riders actually getting busted for doping... therefore he is being voted for un as yet, well not unproven, but purely allegations...
im not sure that this isnt a "is lance clean" poll.. and yes blah blah blah, i dont need all the evidence about JB reposting on here, ive seen it all a thousand times.. we know he isnt an angel...

But...

Lefevre on the other hand is a milllion miles out in front as far as busted and evidence goes...

its either that or a lot of peope have voted JB because they dont know the others...

 

[Oldman]

I voted for Bruyneel. Rode for Saiz at ONCE and the all the evidence out there and testimonials and the high number of positive dope tests (if you include Boonen in this) by former riders of his (Hamilton, Landis, Beltran, Heras, Colom etc.) makes him the 'winner' of this poll. Lefevre 2nd and Riis 3rd for mine.

Never heard anything major against Sargeant and Madiot, although the latter had no problems help drive Bassons out of the sport by getting his team to assist USPS in chasing down their own rider at the 1999 TdF and never paid him his winnings from his stage win at the Dauphine (his only pro win) in the same year.

When he rode for a US team he'd come to their California camp with his own soigneur. He'd ride separately from the rest of the team doing "power work" in huge gears. Most of the guys were surprised at the level of apparent PED improvement. I think this was a year he won Robaix...I always felt his whining about the "two-speed peloton" was hypocritical.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I voted for Bruyneel. Rode for Saiz at ONCE and the all the evidence out there and testimonials and the high number of positive dope tests (if you include Boonen in this) by former riders of his (Hamilton, Landis, Beltran, Heras, Colom etc.) makes him the 'winner' of this poll. Lefevre 2nd and Riis 3rd for mine.

Going with the claim that since former riders for Bruyneel later were caught using PEDs as a basis to believe Bruyneel was the reason they doped seems a little agenda oriented. I figure it would take a couple of days to research all of the riders so I thought I would look at one mentioned as a reason to believe that Bruyneel is a dirty DS - Roberto Heras.

Started with Kelme in 1995 - this would be the team that a former rider (Jesus Manzano) went public to detail the systematic doping that the team orchestrated over his career. This is the team that Heras started, obtaining some very high results including winning the Velta in 2000 (5th in the TdF that same year) and placing 3rd in 1999 and 1997.

Once Roberto transferred to USPS in 2001 (leaving in 2003) he appears to have had less responsibilities on a much stronger team. He continued to do well in the Vuelta, finishing 4th (2001), 2nd (2002) and 1st (2003); but did not place in the Giro during that time frame and after placing 5th in the 2000 TdF he went to 15th (2001), 9th (2002) and 34th (2003) - while on a much stronger team (of course LA was not looking for competition).

After leaving USPS, Heras went to Liberty-Seguros as team leader. Liberty-Seguros (also known as ONCE, and ASTANA) has a well known history of admitted doping practices with Heras and Vinokourov - in fact Bruyneel conditioned his take over there on the complete change in organization and riders in 2007. Note: Bruyneel road for ONCE and placed 3rd overall in 1995.

It was clear that Liberty-Seguros was pushing for a TdF placement and were disappointed in Heras' failure to produce results. By 2005 L-S was looking for the name that would get them the placement they were looking for and hired Vino who started riding for them in 2006.

Without reviewing the history of each of the above riders, I suspect each road for programs in the past with a history, or association, of PED use. The fact that they tested positive while riding on other teams should not be credited to Bruyneel but on the team DS who they were riding for when tested. To suggest that riders who fail testing after leaving a program learned all from a particular DS they no longer ride for is not logical. Also to be considered, we have a number of riders who are more than willing to hang their team and DS out when they have been caught - while it is possible someone has testified that Bruyneel was involved in obtaining and doping his riders, I am not aware of such testimony.

 

[Berzin]

Question: Why have so many ex-Bruyneel riders tested positive?

If the Science behind lance armstrong is pharmacology, as some suggest, then why would ex riders be busted if they know all the "secrets" to get around the dope testers?

IMO, it doesn't make armstrong or bruyneel look any dirtier when ex-riders get busted in their new teams.. Why would they use testable products, if, as many suggest, the US postal/disco squads had some big secret?.. Why wouldnt the ex riders keep using this secret and therefore never get busted?

It all depends on what they got busted for. Hamilton received the wrong blood bags. "Roid Floyd had a epi/test. ratio that was completely out of whack on that one particular day but was also under suspicion for his haematocrit levels, another clear sign of a medical team that was not up to the task.

Heras, more incompetence. He tested positive the day before the last stage and claimed his innocence on the premise that he'd be stupid to dope when he already had the Vuelta in the bag, and the fact that he had not tested positive on any other days he wore the leader's jersey.

Turns out that those samples were taken but not initially tested, and when done so after the fact they were also found to have traces of EPO. Again, another example of incompetence from the team's medical staff.

 

[filipo]

I probably should have included a 'they're all clean' option or included some of the more outspoken DSs (Holzer, Fanini), just to get a good debate going.

That's funny -- I was about to suggest we add Holczer as one of the dirty options, given Kohl's revelation today that the Gerolsteiner team doc was in on organized doping at the 2008 Tour. That doesn't happen in the dark, folks.

 

[thehog]

I think JB has to get it purely from the fact that he wrote the worlds most stupidest book based on how clean his teams were. Thats the biggest joke. Its like the former CEO of Lehman Brothers writing a book on ethics.

 

[bianchigirl]

Bruyneel because he has helped, with his buddies in the UCI, to perpetrate the myth of 'clean' cycling, has persistently bent the professionally agreed rules, has endorsed the silencing of riders who speak out for a genuine clean up of the sport and has a really bad hairdo. Plus he was a dirty little wheelsucker as a rider. Really, what's to like about him or his attitude to the sport which has seen it go from one of beauty and drama to watching a bunch of robots wired up to their team cars afraid to turn a pedal without the DS' say so.

 

[Epicycle]

I'd vote for all of them except Madiot, unless you take into account riding careers then Madiot has done his share too.

 

[hfer07]

Question: Why have so many ex-Bruyneel riders tested positive?

If the Science behind lance armstrong is pharmacology, as some suggest, then why would ex riders be busted if they know all the "secrets" to get around the dope testers?

IMO, it doesn't make armstrong or bruyneel look any dirtier when ex-riders get busted in their new teams.. Why would they use testable products, if, as many suggest, the US postal/disco squads had some big secret?.. Why wouldnt the ex riders keep using this secret and therefore never get busted?

ps - don't assume this is a fanboy question, i genuinely want to get some perspective on this, as i don't think ex-riders of LA and JB testing positive gives any clues as to the illedged doping in the JB run teams.

pps - i voted the banesto/caisse director, given he is happy to let valv-piti win the vuelta despite his suspension in one of the biggest cycling nations

When a rider becomes part of the Bruyneel/LA gang- they get "the template" -As they call their program which includes:
*Full length Medical Program (personalized cutting edge Doping regime, schedules,supervision,etc)
*full immunity (AKA Bruyneel/LA year-rounded payments/endorsements to the UCI)
*Great Salary & good budgets to secure stability.

 

[filipo]

Going with the claim that since former riders for Bruyneel later were caught using PEDs as a basis to believe Bruyneel was the reason they doped seems a little agenda oriented. I figure it would take a couple of days to research all of the riders so I thought I would look at one mentioned as a reason to believe that Bruyneel is a dirty DS - Roberto Heras.

Started with Kelme in 1995 - this would be the team that a former rider (Jesus Manzano) went public to detail the systematic doping that the team orchestrated over his career. This is the team that Heras started, obtaining some very high results including winning the Velta in 2000 (5th in the TdF that same year) and placing 3rd in 1999 and 1997.

Once Roberto transferred to USPS in 2001 (leaving in 2003) he appears to have had less responsibilities on a much stronger team. He continued to do well in the Vuelta, finishing 4th (2001), 2nd (2002) and 1st (2003); but did not place in the Giro during that time frame and after placing 5th in the 2000 TdF he went to 15th (2001), 9th (2002) and 34th (2003) - while on a much stronger team (of course LA was not looking for competition).

After leaving USPS, Heras went to Liberty-Seguros as team leader. Liberty-Seguros (also known as ONCE, and ASTANA) has a well known history of admitted doping practices with Heras and Vinokourov - in fact Bruyneel conditioned his take over there on the complete change in organization and riders in 2007. Note: Bruyneel road for ONCE and placed 3rd overall in 1995.

It was clear that Liberty-Seguros was pushing for a TdF placement and were disappointed in Heras' failure to produce results. By 2005 L-S was looking for the name that would get them the placement they were looking for and hired Vino who started riding for them in 2006.

Without reviewing the history of each of the above riders, I suspect each road for programs in the past with a history, or association, of PED use. The fact that they tested positive while riding on other teams should not be credited to Bruyneel but on the team DS who they were riding for when tested. To suggest that riders who fail testing after leaving a program learned all from a particular DS they no longer ride for is not logical. Also to be considered, we have a number of riders who are more than willing to hang their team and DS out when they have been caught - while it is possible someone has testified that Bruyneel was involved in obtaining and doping his riders, I am not aware of such testimony.

So your shorter argument is: Obviously Heras wasn't doping at USPS because his TdF results -- while riding totally in the service of Armstrong, during the years of Armstrong's dominance -- were lacking?

I suggest you do a little more research.

 

[Escarabajo]

Going with the claim that since former riders for Bruyneel later were caught using PEDs as a basis to believe Bruyneel was the reason they doped seems a little agenda oriented. I figure it would take a couple of days to research all of the riders so I thought I would look at one mentioned as a reason to believe that Bruyneel is a dirty DS - Roberto Heras.

Started with Kelme in 1995 - this would be the team that a former rider (Jesus Manzano) went public to detail the systematic doping that the team orchestrated over his career. This is the team that Heras started, obtaining some very high results including winning the Velta in 2000 (5th in the TdF that same year) and placing 3rd in 1999 and 1997.

Once Roberto transferred to USPS in 2001 (leaving in 2003) he appears to have had less responsibilities on a much stronger team. He continued to do well in the Vuelta, finishing 4th (2001), 2nd (2002) and 1st (2003); but did not place in the Giro during that time frame and after placing 5th in the 2000 TdF he went to 15th (2001), 9th (2002) and 34th (2003) - while on a much stronger team (of course LA was not looking for competition).

After leaving USPS, Heras went to Liberty-Seguros as team leader. Liberty-Seguros (also known as ONCE, and ASTANA) has a well known history of admitted doping practices with Heras and Vinokourov - in fact Bruyneel conditioned his take over there on the complete change in organization and riders in 2007. Note: Bruyneel road for ONCE and placed 3rd overall in 1995.

It was clear that Liberty-Seguros was pushing for a TdF placement and were disappointed in Heras' failure to produce results. By 2005 L-S was looking for the name that would get them the placement they were looking for and hired Vino who started riding for them in 2006.

...

This is a very weak argument. So you actually believe that a rider can go from Cheat, Clean and cheat again during his career? That is very hard to believe. Do the research on Manuel Beltran and you will see the same pattern but worse.

 

[cromagnon]

Question: Why have so many ex-Bruyneel riders tested positive?

If the Science behind lance armstrong is pharmacology, as some suggest, then why would ex riders be busted if they know all the "secrets" to get around the dope testers?

IMO, it doesn't make armstrong or bruyneel look any dirtier when ex-riders get busted in their new teams.. Why would they use testable products, if, as many suggest, the US postal/disco squads had some big secret?.. Why wouldnt the ex riders keep using this secret and therefore never get busted?

ps - don't assume this is a fanboy question, i genuinely want to get some perspective on this, as i don't think ex-riders of LA and JB testing positive gives any clues as to the illedged doping in the JB run teams.

pps - i voted the banesto/caisse director, given he is happy to let valv-piti win the vuelta despite his suspension in one of the biggest cycling nations

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/paul-kimmage

These should just be stickied tbh so everyone gets "up to speed" before posting anything.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

So your shorter argument is: Obviously Heras wasn't doping at USPS because his TdF results -- while riding totally in the service of Armstrong, during the years of Armstrong's dominance -- were lacking?

I suggest you do a little more research.

I did not state that obviously he was not doping then - only that Bruyneel should not be credited with Heras doping after he left the team because, without a positive test, it is not "obvious" that he was doping while on USPS.

 

[gregod]

Same reason why Ivan Basso can get a PT contract, but riders like Koldo Gil (who has made repeated attempts to the UCI to use his DNA to clear his name from OP, which the UCI have repeatedly refuse to do), Michael Rasmussen (right or wrong, he has done his time given to him), Roberto Heras, Jorg Jaschke (who broke omerta) all can't get a pro contract. And then there is Patrik Sinkewitz who also broke omerta and rides for a B-grade Czech team (with all due respect to PSK Whirlpool – Author) as a result.

Welcome to the black list.

I am not into conspiracies theories, but you make a compelling case. it seems that some of the guys who came clean get shafted and the unrepentent ones get contracts. Not to say that if you've served your time you shouldn't get a contract, but if you owned up to your mistake a second chance should be more forthcoming.

 

[gregod]

im not sure all the voting for JB isnt emotionally driven as opposed to actually driven by evidence... The fact is JB has a very very small record of riders actually getting busted for doping...

Is this claim true? Do you have some numbers? It seems that JB has quite a number of ex-riders who have been busted. At least he has achieved some parity with other notorious DSs.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Is this claim true? Do you have some numbers? It seems that JB has quite a number of ex-riders who have been busted. At least he has achieved some parity with other notorious DSs.

The statement here was riders, not ex-riders. If you want to think he is the dirtiest, no problem, however, unless your opinion is to be completely subjective you should have some objective standards which would not include tagging his record for positive test results while the rider is working in another program.

 

[Race Radio]

The statement here was riders, not ex-riders. If you want to think he is the dirtiest, no problem, however, unless your opinion is to be completely subjective you should have some objective standards which would not include tagging his record for positive test results while the rider is working in another program.

Do you think he got the nickname "The Hog" for nothing?

 

[gregod]

The statement here was riders, not ex-riders. If you want to think he is the dirtiest, no problem, however, unless your opinion is to be completely subjective you should have some objective standards which would not include tagging his record for positive test results while the rider is working in another program.

I see what you are saying. I previously posted that it was plausible that once a rider leaves JB's teams to become a leader he may feel more pressure to dope than before. On the other hand, his new team may not be as good at it... I don't know, so I haven't voted for anybody as "dirtiest".