Dirtiest active DS

[gregod]

Do you think he got the nickname "The Hog" for nothing?

I don't get it. What does the nickname "the hog" mean?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Do you think he got the nickname "The Hog" for nothing?

Nicknames are rarely useful to prove a particular point. I have heard a few nicknames applied to me over my career (and lifetime). I have heard HS kids nickname a well known straight laced student "toker" knowing that the nickname would irritate the student.

Again, did Bruyneel have more riders test positive while riding for him than these other DS or not - that is the question for me since I would like to consider this as objectively as possible.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't get it. What does the nickname "the hog" mean?

When Johan raced on Once his DS was Manolo Saiz. The same Saiz who was arrested with a bag of dope and money in Operation Puerto.

When Johan was on Once they had a team wide doping program that was funded by prize money as well as additional contributions from each rider. It was a shared cost, but each rider would take as much as they felt they needed. Johan consumed large quantities, more then any other rider on the team. This lead to his teammates giving him the nickname "The Hog".

When he came to USPS he brought with him Once doctor Pedro Celaya and his needle man Jose Arenas. Pedro still works for him today at Astana.

 

[luckyboy]

The statement here was riders, not ex-riders. If you want to think he is the dirtiest, no problem, however, unless your opinion is to be completely subjective you should have some objective standards which would not include tagging his record for positive test results while the rider is working in another program.

I don't get it - you seriously think that all of those guys only started doping after they left Disco/USPS?

 

[Race Radio]

Nicknames are rarely useful to prove a particular point. I have heard a few nicknames applied to me over my career (and lifetime). I have heard HS kids nickname a well known straight laced student "toker" knowing that the nickname would irritate the student.

Again, did Bruyneel have more riders test positive while riding for him than these other DS or not - that is the question for me since I would like to consider this as objectively as possible.

Who has tested positive under Lefevre?

Willingness to employ dopers, willingness to employ doping doctors like Andres Blum, Ferrari, Ceyla. Willingness to hire soigners and support staff who will enable and assist the program.....this is what is measured as dirty.

Telekom ran a team-wide, systematic, doping program. It was only after this program was dismantled that a rider tested positive. Number of positives is an measurement of the weakness of a program, not a measure of it's strength.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Who has tested positive under Lefevre?

Willingness to employ dopers, willingness to employ doping doctors like Andres Blum, Ferrari, Ceyla. Willingness to hire soigners and support staff who will enable and assist the program.....this is what is measured as dirty.

Telekom ran a team-wide, systematic, doping program. It was only after this program was dismantled that a rider tested positive. Number of positives is an measurement of the weakness of a program, not a measure of it's strength.

I guess since Telekom ran a team-wide, systematic, doping program their DS Rudy Pevenage should be considered for dirtiest DS, but I do not see his name listed in the poll.

 

[craig1985]

I am not into conspiracies theories, but you make a compelling case. it seems that some of the guys who came clean get shafted and the unrepentent ones get contracts. Not to say that if you've served your time you shouldn't get a contract, but if you owned up to your mistake a second chance should be more forthcoming.

And then there is Joseba Beloki who at once stage looked like he was going to get a ride with Euskaltel-Euskadi, but it never happened and AFAIK, he is a journalist, Paco Mancebo and Oscar Sevilla ride for Rock Racing and many other Spanish riders are now riding for peanuts for Portugese teams.

 

[Race Radio]

I guess since Telekom ran a team-wide, systematic, doping program their DS Rudy Pevenage should be considered for dirtiest DS, but I do not see his name listed in the poll.

Walter Godefroot was the DS. He is retired. Pevanage's primary job was making sure Jan did not eat too much.

 

[ak-zaaf]

Lefevere, by far.

I really like the man, he's sneaky, intelligent, has so many double standards it becomes mind boggling and isn't afraid to put his entire team on the line if he can save his own as$ that way. Forgiving to the ones he needs, brutal towards people who can't help him.

Lefevere embodies everything cycling was and still is.

 

[Bluebeard]

Pevanage's primary job was making sure Jan did not eat too much.

Hardest working many in cycling at the time...

 

[sgreene]

...high number of positive dope tests (if you include Boonen in this) by former riders of his (Hamilton, Landis, Beltran, Heras, Colom etc.) makes him the 'winner' of this poll. Lefevre 2nd and Riis 3rd for mine.

How can you blame Bruyneel for what his former riders did after they left his team? If anything, it makes him look cleaner...

 

[Anonymous]

How can you blame Bruyneel for what his former riders did after they left his team? If anything, it makes him look cleaner...

...uh, no, it doesn't.

 

[sgreene]

...uh, no, it doesn't.

You didn't answer my original question...

 

[350Watts]

Walter Godefroot was the DS. He is retired. Pevanage's primary job was making sure Jan did not eat too much.

Talk about being completely incompetent at their job!

 

[Race Radio]

How can you blame Bruyneel for what his former riders did after they left his team? If anything, it makes him look cleaner...

I think we can all agree that The Hog's willingness to hire dopers makes him dirty. We have to be honest about this.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

In addition to taking an attitude that doping isn't now, and wasn't, a serious problem with this sport, and it would be better if it weren't discussed, or the media were actually silenced from reporting on it.

Any of the guys on this list could probably qualify, though Madiot talks a good game. The top three shouldn't be involved in the sport if you ask me.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I think we can all agree that The Hog's willingness to hire dopers makes him dirty. We have to be honest about this.

From what I have read - all of the top fifty riders are dirty so and manager who hires a a number of top 50 riders is clearly dirtiest

 

[CentralCaliBike]

In addition to taking an attitude that doping isn't now, and wasn't, a serious problem with this sport, and it would be better if it weren't discussed, or the media were actually silenced from reporting on it.

Any of the guys on this list could probably qualify, though Madiot talks a good game. The top three shouldn't be involved in the sport if you ask me.

I just realized how to clean up the sport - every year we ban the top 50 riders for at least two seasons based on their performance as an indication of PED use.

Seriously, I do not think you can ever get the sport completely clean but I also do not believe you can decide that everyone is cheating just because they are doing well > and, if you are looking to clean the sport up and truly believe that the top 50 are cheating I guess this idea is the only option.

BTW - I do consider EPO use to be life threatening to the riders and would be happy if the tests could actually identify those who are using under the radar.

 

[Race Radio]

From what I have read - all of the top fifty riders are dirty so and manager who hires a a number of top 50 riders is clearly dirtiest

Were did you read that the top 50 riders are dirty? is the top 50 in Tour, the world rankings (Do they even have that anymore?) Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

Hiring dirty riders is only one part of the equation. Rabid enforcement of the omerta, something the Hog and Lefevre are both guilty of, is another key part of their game.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Were did you read that the top 50 riders are dirty? is the top 50 in Tour, the world rankings (Do they even have that anymore?) Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

Hiring dirty riders is only one part of the equation. Rabid enforcement of the omerta, something the Hog and Lefevre are both guilty of, is another key part of their game.

I personally am not claiming the top 50 are dirty - I have read from some of the more prolific posters on this site who seem to be making this claim - below as an example (although to be fair the claim is not a 100%):

Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez View Post
Here's a partial list of potential "bread and water" clean riders:

Philip Deignan

Don't completely trust anyone in the top 10 of any major GT either
these days. Maybe a handful in the top 50.

 

[Digger]

In addition to taking an attitude that doping isn't now, and wasn't, a serious problem with this sport, and it would be better if it weren't discussed, or the media were actually silenced from reporting on it.

Any of the guys on this list could probably qualify, though Madiot talks a good game. The top three shouldn't be involved in the sport if you ask me.

Hypocrite.
When a System U rider broke the Omerta back when Marc was riding, Marc said it was they typical tale of a cyclist not good enough to make it.
Could've spoken up, but kept his mouth shut.

Very hard to look beyond Johan today though. His words on the doping problems of the late 90s were shocking. He said we have problems now because we agreed too readily to blood testing.
We have high crime rates because the police are doing their job too well.

 

[pmcg76]

I personally am not claiming the top 50 are dirty - I have read from some of the more prolific posters on this site who seem to be making this claim - below as an example (although to be fair the claim is not a 100%):

Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez View Post
Here's a partial list of potential "bread and water" clean riders:

Philip Deignan

Don't completely trust anyone in the top 10 of any major GT either
these days. Maybe a handful in the top 50.

I agree with you on the fact that people throw top-whatever around too easily on here and it has always bothered me. BigBoat was probably the worst.

Deignan is a good example, he was just inside the Top 20 in GC at the Vuelta before he got into a break that was allowed to gain 10 minutes which propelled him into the Top 10 at the weakest of the 3 GTs . It was a combination of good riding, teamwork and good luck that put him Top 10 but if people stick to the Top 10 are doped theory, then he automatically falls into this category. A bit unfair I think.

Who remembers Francois Simon in the 01 Tour, he was maillot jaune and finished Top 10 but this was due to the huge advantage he gained in an early break, he usually was top 100. I think there are exceptions due to such events but I think in general, people are referring to people who are consistently finishing Top 10 in GTs without lucky breaks etc.

 

[Race Radio]

I personally am not claiming the top 50 are dirty - I have read from some of the more prolific posters on this site who seem to be making this claim - below as an example (although to be fair the claim is not a 100%):

Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez View Post
Here's a partial list of potential "bread and water" clean riders:

Philip Deignan

Don't completely trust anyone in the top 10 of any major GT either
these days. Maybe a handful in the top 50.

Why does it not surprise me that you would be myopic enough to ascribe the views of one poster to the board as a whole?

 

[craig1985]

Hypocrite.
When a System U rider broke the Omerta back when Marc was riding, Marc said it was they typical tale of a cyclist not good enough to make it.
Could've spoken up, but kept his mouth shut.

Very hard to look beyond Johan today though. His words on the doping problems of the late 90s were shocking. He said we have problems now because we agreed too readily to blood testing.
We have high crime rates because the police are doing their job too well.

Just look at how Madiot treated Bassons.

 

[pmcg76]

Just look at how Madiot treated Bassons.

In fairness, I think Madiot finally got the message and changed his attitude a bit. A lot of posters seem to think it is impossible for people to change their opinions etc. I mentioned Didier Rous elsewhere, what do people think of Rous, now a DS at Boguyes Telecom, currently the team leading the cleanest team poll.