Disc brakes on road bikes...

[winkybiker]

Re:

I am really happy with my exalith rims, braking is great and no rim wear after 30,000 km as a bonus.

Yes, the surface finishing is a great benefit. The dry braking is great but wet-weather braking the real benefit and is MUCH better than regular alloy rims. Mine are just now showing signs of wear after three years. None of the circumferential grooves that you get on regular rims, either. They are still perfectly flat. And the hard green brake pads last "for ever". It's quite unbelievable.

 

[ray j willings]

The exalith does seem like a good idea. I have never tried them, I would imagine they will only ever be available for Mavic.
Be nice to make a hand-built set.

 

[winkybiker]

Re:

The exalith does seem like a good idea. I have never tried them, I would imagine they will only ever be available for Mavic.
Be nice to make a hand-built set.

Campag and Fulcrum have their own version of the surface treatment now.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

The exalith does seem like a good idea. I have never tried them, I would imagine they will only ever be available for Mavic.
Be nice to make a hand-built set.

Campag and Fulcrum have their own version of the surface treatment now.

There was a post over on the weight weenie sight "I think it was there" where there was a few issues with the surface losing colour and brake pads. Obviously they have sorted that out if other wheel makers are doing the same. I have been trying to get some old AC magnesium rims ,they are really light. I could get near a1000grms a set with those rims "clincher"

 

[richwagmn]

Re: Re:

Just like the BB fiasco..

Man, that bottom bracket image is priceless. Where is that from?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

Just like the BB fiasco..

Man, that bottom bracket image is priceless. Where is that from?

Goggle search Bottom bracket standards chart..more than one..it is obscene and one for hubs will be coming no doubt. 10mm, 12mm, 15mm, 135, 142, 146....140mm rotor, 160mm rotor..chainstay mounted, seat stay mounted....and another chart like this. Another for fittings, hoses..blah, blah

 

[frenchfry]

Re: Re:

Just like the BB fiasco..

Man, that bottom bracket image is priceless. Where is that from?

Goggle search Bottom bracket standards chart..more than one..it is obscene and one for hubs will be coming no doubt. 10mm, 12mm, 15mm, 135, 142, 146....140mm rotor, 160mm rotor..chainstay mounted, seat stay mounted....and another chart like this. Another for fittings, hoses..blah, blah

Just another reason why LBS's have trouble existing, no one can stock all that crap. So the end users end up buying from internet, because that is the only place parts are available.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

Just like the BB fiasco..

Man, that bottom bracket image is priceless. Where is that from?

Goggle search Bottom bracket standards chart..more than one..it is obscene and one for hubs will be coming no doubt. 10mm, 12mm, 15mm, 135, 142, 146....140mm rotor, 160mm rotor..chainstay mounted, seat stay mounted....and another chart like this. Another for fittings, hoses..blah, blah

Just another reason why LBS's have trouble existing, no one can stock all that crap. So the end users end up buying from internet, because that is the only place parts are available.

Smart bike shops identify their market and pursue it vigorously. Smart bike shop 'A', becomes the local expert on all things MTB, including having all 'this crap'(I agree), and provides expert service and knowledge. But do they have an 'e wire for Di2 or a grommet for EPS? Nope, that's what bike shop 'B' does. Here 35 or so car repair places, about 5 dealers. Audi repair place doesn't have fuel pumps for Subaru and BMW repair place doesn't have ABS modules for Chevys. Bike shops here don't go out of business, they commit suicide. It ain't rocket surgery.

If the market is small(Campagnolo service exclusively), but all of that small market comes to one place, then it's big for that one place. Not hard but it can be difficult.

 

[frenchfry]

Re: Re:

Just like the BB fiasco..

Man, that bottom bracket image is priceless. Where is that from?

Goggle search Bottom bracket standards chart..more than one..it is obscene and one for hubs will be coming no doubt. 10mm, 12mm, 15mm, 135, 142, 146....140mm rotor, 160mm rotor..chainstay mounted, seat stay mounted....and another chart like this. Another for fittings, hoses..blah, blah

Just another reason why LBS's have trouble existing, no one can stock all that crap. So the end users end up buying from internet, because that is the only place parts are available.

Smart bike shops identify their market and pursue it vigorously. Smart bike shop 'A', becomes the local expert on all things MTB, including having all 'this crap'(I agree), and provides expert service and knowledge. But do they have an 'e wire for Di2 or a grommet for EPS? Nope, that's what bike shop 'B' does. Here 35 or so car repair places, about 5 dealers. Audi repair place doesn't have fuel pumps for Subaru and BMW repair place doesn't have ABS modules for Chevys. Bike shops here don't go out of business, they commit suicide. It ain't rocket surgery.

If the market is small(Campagnolo service exclusively), but all of that small market comes to one place, then it's big for that one place. Not hard but it can be difficult.

I live in a metropolitan area of about 40K people. We don't even have a smart bike shop 'A'

I can't even find Michelin A1 inner tubes. Have to buy them on internet or when I go to Paris.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

There are issues with disc brakes. Its no good mentioning the faults of tubs or clinchers. That does not solve the problems.
You just can't up grade your bike to run discs. You will need to buy at least another frame/forks. Most pros do not want discs.
Contador says things are fine.
I don't see how a disc brake is going to work on along alpine descent in a full on race. They just get to hot and no one has yet come up with a solution. Then you have the added weight on the frame and forks. Alloy rims are still the best option for mountain descent's IMO.
Manufacturers love new ideas because they make a mint from all the fans who want the latest tech.
Note yesterday winner Paolini was riding mechanical not electric. Nibs rode mechanical throughout the tour. Innovation yes reliable yes.
So far we are still at mechanical group sets and standard brakes as the best and most reliable option.

I had a long conversation with somebody at Campagnolo NA. Asked about disc brakes, he 'said' don't expect from Campagnolo because 'pro's don't want them'...Campag has always been euro road race oriented. I suspect Campag is developing them, perhaps with Formula but not soon.

Pros don't want them? This months Cyclist has an interview with Ian Stannard who says they're great and he wants to see them In the peloton. He's the only pro I've seen who has given an opinion on whether he wants to see them or not. Any links?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

There are issues with disc brakes. Its no good mentioning the faults of tubs or clinchers. That does not solve the problems.
You just can't up grade your bike to run discs. You will need to buy at least another frame/forks. Most pros do not want discs.
Contador says things are fine.
I don't see how a disc brake is going to work on along alpine descent in a full on race. They just get to hot and no one has yet come up with a solution. Then you have the added weight on the frame and forks. Alloy rims are still the best option for mountain descent's IMO.
Manufacturers love new ideas because they make a mint from all the fans who want the latest tech.
Note yesterday winner Paolini was riding mechanical not electric. Nibs rode mechanical throughout the tour. Innovation yes reliable yes.
So far we are still at mechanical group sets and standard brakes as the best and most reliable option.

I had a long conversation with somebody at Campagnolo NA. Asked about disc brakes, he 'said' don't expect from Campagnolo because 'pro's don't want them'...Campag has always been euro road race oriented. I suspect Campag is developing them, perhaps with Formula but not soon.

Pros don't want them? This months Cyclist has an interview with Ian Stannard who says they're great and he wants to see them In the peloton. He's the only pro I've seen who has given an opinion on whether he wants to see them or not. Any links?

There was a story in Cyclingnews asking pros. Most were either ambililent, didn't like the lack or standardization or said they like them on a MTB. There are going to be more than a few races lost because of them in their first years, none won because of them.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

There was a story in Cyclingnews asking pros. Most were either ambililent, didn't like the lack or standardization or said they like them on a MTB. There are going to be more than a few races lost because of them in their first years, none won because of them.

I've not seen any pro out right say they don't want them, they just ask the same questions many others do, many of which have been answered.

As for races lost and won because of them, that's really going to depend on how you decide a race was won.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

There was a story in Cyclingnews asking pros. Most were either ambililent, didn't like the lack or standardization or said they like them on a MTB. There are going to be more than a few races lost because of them in their first years, none won because of them.

I've not seen any pro out right say they don't want them, they just ask the same questions many others do, many of which have been answered.

As for races lost and won because of them, that's really going to depend on how you decide a race was won.

Unlike bottom brackets, which is a whole 'nother can of worms, wheels require replacement during races. Often by neutral support(when they aren't crashing into racers-Tour of Flanders). There are a 'dozen' or more different combinations of rotors, caliper, axles..now..and caliper to rotor clearances are teeny, compared to DP road calipers now. Before discs on road races are in the peloton, these will have to be ironed out, with the manufacturers kicking and screaming the whole way. THEN, after that is hashed out..how to cool them on long, steep, alpine descents with less fluid, enclosed reservoirs, speeds(energy) much higher and use of brakes much higher..gonna be interesting.

Many more racers have been lost due to equipment, then won.

 

[ray j willings]

Why disc brakes will not work
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco- ... edhot.html

 

[kuoirad]

This might be a silly question, but why are we assuming they're going to be hydraulic discs? Why not go strictly mechanical disks and skip the boiling hydraulic fluid issue altogether? Wouldn't that be a simpler/more easily maintained/lighter option if they're going to go to discs?

 

[Master50]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_YREtBNCkI
Try this link to a demo of a small reservoir closed system mechanical over hydraulic brake from TRP this You tube video is of the HyRd model. Pay attention to the rotor

 

[Master50]

Re:

Why disc brakes will not work
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco- ... edhot.html

Ray
I hope you read the article and the guys experience using brakes set up for CX use. the rotors were small and very minimalist too. this is also at least 2 years ago and a lot has changed even since then. This is why CX brake set up is not road appropriate. Also a very good cautionary tale about the specific challenges for road bikes. the linked article from the link you provided has a lot of good reason for his crash. All solvable problems. Most are better answered than the technology even last year.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Why disc brakes will not work
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco- ... edhot.html

Ray
I hope you read the article and the guys experience using brakes set up for CX use. the rotors were small and very minimalist too. this is also at least 2 years ago and a lot has changed even since then. This is why CX brake set up is not road appropriate. Also a very good cautionary tale about the specific challenges for road bikes. the linked article from the link you provided has a lot of good reason for his crash. All solvable problems. Most are better answered than the technology even last year.

Thanks for that info, good points. It was a while ago. Be interested to see how any pro team who tries discs will get on , if they try them. I am not convinced they will for GT

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Why disc brakes will not work
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco- ... edhot.html

Not this crap again. The guy who did it was an idiot. The idea of using a minimalist cyclocross brake set up on long descents was very, very silly.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

This might be a silly question, but why are we assuming they're going to be hydraulic discs? Why not go strictly mechanical disks and skip the boiling hydraulic fluid issue altogether? Wouldn't that be a simpler/more easily maintained/lighter option if they're going to go to discs?

Because they don't work any better than normal calipers and in some cases, worse. Still the problem of axle, rotor size, caliper placement...blah

And for the post right above..do ya think the big boy road teams, with their sponsor, 'win on sunday, sell on monday, but gotta be light', mentality, the road wet discs will not be minimalist, small, light, not a lot of fluid, internal reservoirs?? Gonna be interesting. We'll see if the likes of shimano and big ed from smarm will try to 'influence' the reporting of their brake failures in euro races..when it does happen.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

This might be a silly question, but why are we assuming they're going to be hydraulic discs? Why not go strictly mechanical disks and skip the boiling hydraulic fluid issue altogether? Wouldn't that be a simpler/more easily maintained/lighter option if they're going to go to discs?

Because they don't work any better than normal calipers and in some cases, worse. Still the problem of axle, rotor size, caliper placement...blah

Axle and rotor size are the main ones, although with sealed bearing hubs the axle shouldn't be a problem. You just take the end caps off your old wheel, swap them over (10 second job) then use whatever axle you wanted. However, the 9mm QR was never challenged (or was it? Even if it was it's no ubiquitous) so as long as whatever axle is chosen can be made by anyone I think choosing single sized bolt-through axle shouldn't be an issue.

Rotor size needs to be standardised, caliper placement shouldn't matter as the disc will be in the same place on the wheel regardless.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

This might be a silly question, but why are we assuming they're going to be hydraulic discs? Why not go strictly mechanical disks and skip the boiling hydraulic fluid issue altogether? Wouldn't that be a simpler/more easily maintained/lighter option if they're going to go to discs?

Because they don't work any better than normal calipers and in some cases, worse. Still the problem of axle, rotor size, caliper placement...blah

Axle and rotor size are the main ones, although with sealed bearing hubs the axle shouldn't be a problem. You just take the end caps off your old wheel, swap them over (10 second job) then use whatever axle you wanted. However, the 9mm QR was never challenged (or was it? Even if it was it's no ubiquitous) so as long as whatever axle is chosen can be made by anyone I think choosing single sized bolt-through axle shouldn't be an issue.

Rotor size needs to be standardised, caliper placement shouldn't matter as the disc will be in the same place on the wheel regardless.

Not my point, my point about neutral wheels and which type axle each team, bike has. But even now, some hubs/wheels cannot be converted and if they can, may not have the 'system' your frame has.

I can see it now, neutral support car audio...Spinachi has a flat!!!..ok..rotor size? axle type? Thru or QR? 130, 135, 142, 146?? Front or rear...9mm, QR? 10mm......then they 'slap' the wheel on(don't compress the lever!!!)(or don't have that 160mm, 142mm thruaxle wheel)...and the rider rides away hearing that squeak, squeak, squeak, or rotor to caliper rub....BIKE TOSS!!

Caliper placement has a huge impact..whether it be seat stay or chainstay mount..and whether or not the caliper hits the rotor, which aren't standardized either, neither diameter nor width.

It'll happen, the designers will whine, the bean counters will be giving each other high fives. AND you will buy a frame, with a some sort of axle/thru axle frame or fork..then when the wheelmaker/frame maker goes to a different 'standard', and support yours no more..you'll throw the frame/fork away because of an axle(or BB)..well, these asian plastic things are throw away anyway.

WHOGAS-just fun to watch..I don't have to

-use 'em
-sell 'em
-work on 'em...

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Why disc brakes will not work
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco- ... edhot.html

Not this crap again. The guy who did it was an idiot. The idea of using a minimalist cyclocross brake set up on long descents was very, very silly.

In fairness he was trying a light set up, trying to match what the pro teams would be looking for. It just did not turn out very well ...

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Not my point, my point about neutral wheels and which type axle each team, bike has. But even now, some hubs/wheels cannot be converted and if they can, may not have the 'system' your frame has.

I can see it now, neutral support car audio...Spinachi has a flat!!!..ok..rotor size? axle type? Thru or QR? 130, 135, 142, 146?? Front or rear...9mm, QR? 10mm......then they 'slap' the wheel on(don't compress the lever!!!)(or don't have that 160mm, 142mm thruaxle wheel)...and the rider rides away hearing that squeak, squeak, squeak, or rotor to caliper rub....BIKE TOSS!!

Caliper placement has a huge impact..whether it be seat stay or chainstay mount..and whether or not the caliper hits the rotor, which aren't standardized either, neither diameter nor width.

It'll happen, the designers will whine, the bean counters will be giving each other high fives. AND you will buy a frame, with a some sort of axle/thru axle frame or fork..then when the wheelmaker/frame maker goes to a different 'standard', and support yours no more..you'll throw the frame/fork away because of an axle(or BB)..well, these asian plastic things are throw away anyway.

WHOGAS-just fun to watch..I don't have to

-use 'em
-sell 'em
-work on 'em...

I don't know why you think they are going to suddenly introduce a myriad axle lengths when most of the longer ones would be absolutely pointless on a road bike. The rear axle will remain the same, the front axle will likely go to 10-15mm thru-axle as they are just as fast, if not faster, than QRs to change wheels and will work much better with discs (although QR works fine). Sealed cartridge bearing front wheel with end caps means you would have interchangeable wheels anyway, but it's pretty much certain there will be one size agreed. As I pointed out, you don't get that myriad of axle sizes already, so why do it now? The UCI regulate pretty much everything to do with bikes that could impact a race, why are you assuming that'll suddenly change on a very obvious issue?

It takes several pulls on a lever to advance the pads past the point where you can't get the wheel in, that's a massively unlikely scenario and why would you grab the lever anyway? Your hands should be no where near them when changing a wheel, even with rim brakes.

Calpier placement does not have a huge impact because they are spaced for a specific diameter rotor that is in a fixed position on the hub. It doesn't matter where the caliper is, if it takes one 140mm rotor it'll take all of them.


Throw them away? I have mates who still ride 40 year old frames with period correct parts and they find replacements easily enough. I'm riding a 26" wheeled MTB and I doubt I'll ever struggle to get bits for it. If people are throwing away perfectly good bikes that speaks more to their attitude than the usability of the bike.



Honestly though, if it all goes end up it's going to make little difference to most of us. I can run rim brakes fine, but I'd have discs on my next bike if the prices (and standards ) are kept sensible.

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

Why disc brakes will not work
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco- ... edhot.html

Not this crap again. The guy who did it was an idiot. The idea of using a minimalist cyclocross brake set up on long descents was very, very silly.

In fairness he was trying a light set up, trying to match what the pro teams would be looking for. It just did not turn out very well ...

Yes, it interesting that there is a view that road set-ups could/would/should be lighter and smaller than MTB setups. The rate that a road cyclist has to shed energy on a fast descent into a hairpin is potentially much greater than would be encountered in mountainbiking. Sure there is very prolonged braking in mountain biking, but that tends to be at a low and fairly constant speed. Potential (gravitational) energy is being converted to heat to prevent the speed rising too much. It is speed control for the terrain. There are exceptions, but the friction available on dirt limits the rate at which energy can be shed (turned into heat). In road racing it can be hauling down from 80km/hr+ to 25km/hr on high friction tarmac in as short a time as is possible - then repeat. The challenge is much greater.

As an example look at the difference in braking set-ups between a road-going sports-bike and a motocross bike. OK, the MX bike is lighter, but the sports bike has huge twin discs, whereas the MX bike has a single, skinny disc.

http://www.btosportsnews.com/wp-content ... g_9624.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... up_low.jpg