Disc brakes on road bikes...

[ray j willings]

Re:

I think the pros will have to decide either disk or no disk. It wont make wheel changes easier if some are on disk bikes and some are not.

Especially in a situation on a narrow climb and a team leader punctures and the next team mate and you both have different wheel set ups.

Also it will make the neutral service difficult and mechanics in races where no radios will be delayed figuring out whether it is a disk or non disk wheel.

I think teams will decide quickly whether to go disk or no disk. Will be fun watching the frustration of it all....

I would have thought as long as neutral services are not running anyone over they could easily carry disc and non disc. I would imagine in a GC the team mates would have to ride whatever the team leader is using, just in case. Lets be honest we want a bit of disc wheel chaos but I reckon we will be disappointed unless the team managers are a bit stupid.

 

[VeloFidelis]

In my experience working for a sponsor of pro teams, all be it decades ago, riders don't get to weigh in on logistical decisions like this. I found most pros to be surprisingly ambivalent on equipment details. That's what team managers and mechanics are for. If Shimano and SRAM wants a team that they sponsor to use their road disc brakes, you can bet they will be using them. It will be conditional under their sponsorship agreement.

Their is no potential down side for the riders. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes has a strategic advantage over a 15 lb bike without. The logistics of neutral support are being well considered by the interested parties who live with these problems on a daily basis. They have enough experience with mechanical incompatibilities already to give them sufficient perspective. I predict complete conversion in the pro peloton by the first Grand Tour of the 2016 season.

 

[dsut4392]

Re: Re:

I think the pros will have to decide either disk or no disk. It wont make wheel changes easier if some are on disk bikes and some are not.

Especially in a situation on a narrow climb and a team leader punctures and the next team mate and you both have different wheel set ups.

Also it will make the neutral service difficult and mechanics in races where no radios will be delayed figuring out whether it is a disk or non disk wheel.

I think teams will decide quickly whether to go disk or no disk. Will be fun watching the frustration of it all....

I would have thought as long as neutral services are not running anyone over they could easily carry disc and non disc. I would imagine in a GC the team mates would have to ride whatever the team leader is using, just in case. Lets be honest we want a bit of disc wheel chaos but I reckon we will be disappointed unless the team managers are a bit stupid.

I agree, within a team it will be an all-or-none decision to be made, but I think the decision will be more at the frame or groupset sponsor level than team leader.

As for neutral service, now that everyone [at least protour level] is on 11sp which is cross-compatible between brands, there need not be any more confusion than used to be caused over the 'Shimano or Campy, 10 or 11 speed' question for rear wheels.

Disc size will be standard at 160mm, no question, similarly through axle for road will be 12mm. The only compatibility question will be QR or through axle. Worst case scenario is that there will be a mix of 12mm through axle and QR for front and rear disc wheels, while rim-brakes stay on QR front and rear. That still only means neutral service need to carry two different front wheels and two different rear wheels (all with both a 160mm disc and a rim with a brake track). Riders with rim brakes who took a neutral spare would have a redundant disc, and riders with disc brakes would have a redundant brake track...which is absolutely no problem at all.

With a bit more collaboration between frame manufacturers, everyone could standardise on 12mm through axle front and rear for both disc and rim-brake bikes (or keep the rear on QR for both), and there would be nothing stopping neutral service carrying just one type of front wheel, one type of real wheel that suits anyone, disc or rim brake.

 

[frenchfry]

Re:

In my experience working for a sponsor of pro teams, all be it decades ago, riders don't get to weigh in on logistical decisions like this. I found most pros to be surprisingly ambivalent on equipment details. That's what team managers and mechanics are for. If Shimano and SRAM wants a team that they sponsor to use their road disc brakes, you can bet they will be using them. It will be conditional under their sponsorship agreement.

Their is no potential down side for the riders. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes has a strategic advantage over a 15 lb bike without. The logistics of neutral support are being well considered by the interested parties who live with these problems on a daily basis. They have enough experience with mechanical incompatibilities already to give them sufficient perspective. I predict complete conversion in the pro peloton by the first Grand Tour of the 2016 season.

You could very well be right on this point. However, as you point out, the pros themselves won't likely have the final word on the subject. Also, as you point out, a bike of the same weight that brakes "better" would appear to be a no-brainer.

The interesting question is whether disc brakes will become common on our bikes. Between cost and complexity, will they remain limited to high-end and very expensive bikes?

On a ride Tuesday I self-evaluated my current braking capacity (Campy Record with exalith rims). Even though I am a certified scaredy cat on the descents and braking is very important to me, and we did a fair number of climbs, at no time did I feel a need for improved braking. It is a region where a lot of climbs are about 3 km, not very long although often the small roads aren't in great condition. Maybe in race conditions discs are more interesting.

When I changed my bike back in 1999, there were 3 major tech improvements. Lever shifters, clipless pedals and 2 pivot brakes (Campy Athena 9sp at the time). I remember thinking that the improvement in braking was the change that I appreciated the most.

 

[King of Fife]

Re: Re:

In my experience working for a sponsor of pro teams, all be it decades ago, riders don't get to weigh in on logistical decisions like this. I found most pros to be surprisingly ambivalent on equipment details. That's what team managers and mechanics are for. If Shimano and SRAM wants a team that they sponsor to use their road disc brakes, you can bet they will be using them. It will be conditional under their sponsorship agreement.

Their is no potential down side for the riders. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes has a strategic advantage over a 15 lb bike without. The logistics of neutral support are being well considered by the interested parties who live with these problems on a daily basis. They have enough experience with mechanical incompatibilities already to give them sufficient perspective. I predict complete conversion in the pro peloton by the first Grand Tour of the 2016 season.

You could very well be right on this point. However, as you point out, the pros themselves won't likely have the final word on the subject. Also, as you point out, a bike of the same weight that brakes "better" would appear to be a no-brainer.

The interesting question is whether disc brakes will become common on our bikes. Between cost and complexity, will they remain limited to high-end and very expensive bikes?

On a ride Tuesday I self-evaluated my current braking capacity (Campy Record with exalith rims). Even though I am a certified scaredy cat on the descents and braking is very important to me, and we did a fair number of climbs, at no time did I feel a need for improved braking. It is a region where a lot of climbs are about 3 km, not very long although often the small roads aren't in great condition. Maybe in race conditions discs are more interesting.

When I changed my bike back in 1999, there were 3 major tech improvements. Lever shifters, clipless pedals and 2 pivot brakes (Campy Athena 9sp at the time). I remember thinking that the improvement in braking was the change that I appreciated the most.

I've mentioned it before but a £70 (street price) set of Shimano Deore hydraulic disc brakes are good enough for downhill riders these days, and the guys I know who ride downhill are big guys (224-250+ pounds). It's taken a while but road discs will benefit from the advances made over the last couple of decades in MTB discs.

I ride in Scotland, throughout the year. The vast majority of the time my brakes (105, swiss stop green, RS21 rims) are more than adequate, but in the wet, when it's gritty and overcast with poor visibility there have been times when I've wished I had discs (and I've never crashed, touch wood...). Even in the dry there have been a couple of times when I've only just stopped or come close to overshooting a corner (I'm decidedly not scared on descents mountain biking idiot!). It's those times that I've wanted discs that will make me swap, the 1-2% when they will make a difference and that difference could be significant.

I am weight weenie. I am not trying to get my bikes like the pros. My bikes are way lighter.
I really don't think the pros will be all disc. I think it will end up like cyclo cross a mash up.

Not you Ray, I'm talking in general. If anyone wants to ride exactly what the pros ride you're looking at at least £8000 I'd say and that's not including clothing etc. Pro bikes are not attainable for most anyway so the idea that discs will be the thing that pushes the price past what the average rider can afford is wrong, that jumped the shark long ago. I mean, people are paying over £2000 for wheels. WHEELS!??!!?!? Cycling is the new golf for those that want it. However, I can pretty much guarantee I'm as fast on my £1200 steel frame Genesis as I would be on a Pinarello Dogma and the same would go for most people. I have no problem with people spending their money on what they want, just want to make that clear, in fact I'm happy people buy the expensive stuff. It keeps the industry turning over, innovating, guys like BK in business and is good for all of us.

 

[ray j willings]

I agree 100% King of Fife. The one thing about disc brake development "for me" will be how light they will be able to get a disc set up , I mean frame forks wheels etc. Ed the chap who made my seatpost combo has developed some new ideas " he won't let me say- patents etc"
I know there is development being done to get frames ultra light so it will be interesting to see how that goes. I wonder in the future if a new super material will be used and Carbon will end up old school.

 

[winkybiker]

Re:

I agree 100% King of Fife. The one thing about disc brake development "for me" will be how light they will be able to get a disc set up , I mean frame forks wheels etc. Ed the chap who made my seatpost combo has developed some new ideas " he won't let me say- patents etc"
I know there is development being done to get frames ultra light so it will be interesting to see how that goes. I wonder in the future if a new super material will be used and Carbon will end up old school.

The best way to make disc systems as light as possible is to use a component that you need anyway (like a rim) as the disc. And because this "disc" is a large diameter (largest you can use), there are added advantages. The forces now needed by he brake pads are small, thus allowing lighter calipers. Lighter calipers and lower forces mean that actuators can be light cables, rather than heavier hydraulics. Heat dissipation is vastly improved by the diameter of the "disc" as well. Forks and frames are now less heavily loaded under brakes so can be lighter, and front wheels can be radially spoked (lighter and more aero). It seems like win, win win. Nah, it will never take off.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

In my experience working for a sponsor of pro teams, all be it decades ago, riders don't get to weigh in on logistical decisions like this. I found most pros to be surprisingly ambivalent on equipment details. That's what team managers and mechanics are for. If Shimano and SRAM wants a team that they sponsor to use their road disc brakes, you can bet they will be using them. It will be conditional under their sponsorship agreement.

Their is no potential down side for the riders. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes has a strategic advantage over a 15 lb bike without. The logistics of neutral support are being well considered by the interested parties who live with these problems on a daily basis. They have enough experience with mechanical incompatibilities already to give them sufficient perspective. I predict complete conversion in the pro peloton by the first Grand Tour of the 2016 season.

Doubt it will be that fast.

Already provisional for 2016 with likey introduction on any race in 2017..

 

[VeloFidelis]

Interesting rationalizations... Now apply them to the development of braking in mountain bikes, and try again.

 

[winkybiker]

Re:

Interesting rationalizations... Now apply them to the development of braking in mountain bikes, and try again.

Mountain bike braking is a lot of semi-continuous and gradual speed control on technical downhills. Flying into hairpins and braking from over 80km/hr on tarmac, not so much. The modulation and "power" (lighter lever pressure, actually) are a real advantage that discs confer when mountain biking. But on the road, other than in wet weather, I just don't want the hassle, weight and cost. Yes, discs are better brakes, but that's such a small part of my road biking, I just don't care much.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Doubt it will be that fast.

Already provisional for 2016 with likey introduction on any race in 2017..

If not, it will be because Campagnolo does not have them ready for the teams they sponsor. Shimano and SRAM are good to go today. By next May they will have the weight down another 20% to 30%. Production and marketing timelines drive the market in front on consumer interest. We'll have to check back in 13 months and see where our predictions stand.

 

[winkybiker]

Re:

Doubt it will be that fast.

Already provisional for 2016 with likey introduction on any race in 2017..

If not, it will be because Campagnolo does not have them ready for the teams they sponsor. Shimano and SRAM are good to go today. By next May they will have the weight down another 20% to 30%. Production and marketing timelines drive the market in front on consumer interest. We'll have to check back in 13 months and see where our predictions stand.

And when the first pro cooks his super lightweight disc system on a fast descent on prime-time TV, the marketers will have to get back in their box and leave the engineering to engineers.

And why will road discs which have a much harder duty cycle be lighter than MTB discs?

 

[Cyrex]

Re:

Their is no potential down side for the riders. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes has a strategic advantage over a 15 lb bike without.

Please cite your sources to prove this statement. There have been no published scientific tests to back what you said. Not even tests on stopping distances can be found to which I find odd.

The logistics of neutral support are being well considered by the interested parties who live with these problems on a daily basis. They have enough experience with mechanical incompatibilities already to give them sufficient perspective. I predict complete conversion in the pro peloton by the first Grand Tour of the 2016 season.

You are really that sure to make that assertion?

I find it very hard to believe that the monumental effort to bring discs to the pros will amount to any performance benefits gained in regards to more wins or podiums. Because that really is all that matters at the end of the day. If manufactures can't get the pros to use disc, no one will buy them and they will remain a niche. It's all or nothing. The pros are clearly not the ones to benefit from this move.

The way you proudly espouse makes me think I'm dealing with someone who has a stake in this mess. You did say you use work for a sponsor and I can take that you don't have any bias what so ever in this matter? Yeah, right.... It's no secret that concerned parties often shill and troll on forums to try to sway opinions in their favor. I hope you are not one of them.

 

[dsut4392]

Re: Re:

Their is no potential down side for the riders. A 15 lb bike with disc brakes has a strategic advantage over a 15 lb bike without.

Please cite your sources to prove this statement. There have been no published scientific tests to back what you said. Not even tests on stopping distances can be found to which I find odd.

The logistics of neutral support are being well considered by the interested parties who live with these problems on a daily basis. They have enough experience with mechanical incompatibilities already to give them sufficient perspective. I predict complete conversion in the pro peloton by the first Grand Tour of the 2016 season.

You are really that sure to make that assertion?

I find it very hard to believe that the monumental effort to bring discs to the pros will amount to any performance benefits gained in regards to more wins or podiums. Because that really is all that matters at the end of the day. If manufactures can't get the pros to use disc, no one will buy them and they will remain a niche. It's all or nothing. The pros are clearly not the ones to benefit from this move.

The way you proudly espouse makes me think I'm dealing with someone who has a stake in this mess. You did say you use work for a sponsor and I can take that you don't have any bias what so ever in this matter? Yeah, right.... It's no secret that concerned parties often shill and troll on forums to try to sway opinions in their favor. I hope you are not one of them.

Ahahahaha, Johnny-come-lately with 2 posts calling out a longstanding forum member as a shill or a troll Do yourself a favour and check out VeloFidelis' posting history, you may find a PM with an apology is appropriate

 

[Cyrex]

Re: Re:

Ahahahaha, Johnny-come-lately with 2 posts calling out a longstanding forum member as a shill or a troll Do yourself a favour and check out VeloFidelis' posting history, you may find a PM with an apology is appropriate

I've been on here for years. Had to use a new login since the changeover. I'll aspire to have my posts as high as his and will bow down in the meantime, I think not.

 

[VeloFidelis]

I think it matters less how many posts you have... and a little more what you actually have to say.

Best of luck with that...

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

Doubt it will be that fast.

Already provisional for 2016 with likey introduction on any race in 2017..

If not, it will be because Campagnolo does not have them ready for the teams they sponsor. Shimano and SRAM are good to go today. By next May they will have the weight down another 20% to 30%. Production and marketing timelines drive the market in front on consumer interest. We'll have to check back in 13 months and see where our predictions stand.

I'm just telling you what the UCI announced and Campagnolo will have a set at the 2015 interbike in vegas. still dum, IMHO, but yes, it will happen and a clown car for the first year..neutral support.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Re: Re:

I'm just telling you what the UCI announced and Campagnolo will have a set at the 2015 interbike in vegas. still dum, IMHO, but yes, it will happen and a clown car for the first year..neutral support.

Yes you are. Yes it will. Yes it always is... See you in Vegas.

 

[frenchfry]

Re:

Doubt it will be that fast.

Already provisional for 2016 with likey introduction on any race in 2017..

If not, it will be because Campagnolo does not have them ready for the teams they sponsor. Shimano and SRAM are good to go today. By next May they will have the weight down another 20% to 30%. Production and marketing timelines drive the market in front on consumer interest. We'll have to check back in 13 months and see where our predictions stand.

I don't think we should confuse road bike disc brakes with iphones.

 

[LugHugger]

As far as I can tell, AG2R are the only PT team on SRAM. SRAM have been dropped by every body else due to performance/reliability issues. So, espousing SRAM as mover and shaker and an influencer over frame/bike builders is risible. PT teams are free to negotiate exclusions from component suppliers and regularly do. The teams will even go as far as paying for components if there is something available that they want and can afford in their budget.
As for the claims for unanimous (or being charitable, near universal) uptake by this time next year, well that's contemptible. It won't even be within 2 years. As others have already stated, the ban on disk brakes in cyclocross was rescinded 2 seasons ago but their use remains in the minority. And their benefits in terms of better tyre clearance is far more obvious than any application on the road. Rule changes do not dictate equipment use, they simply open up choices. And how many teams are going to take the option to increase costs by giving their riders more equipment options?
Finally, in my experience, the hope that the introduction of discs will drive increased sales is misguided. Our club members are starting to emerge from their garages/winter hibernation, some with new steeds under them. Not one has a disc-equipped ride.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

As far as I can tell, AG2R re the only PT team on SRAM. SRAM have been dropped by every body else due to performance/reliability issues. So, espousing SRAM as mover and shaker and an influencer over frame/bike builders is risible. PT teams are free to negotiate exclusions from component suppliers and regularly do. The teams will even go as far as paying for components if there is something available that they want and can afford in their budget.
As for the claims for unanimous (or being charitable, near universal) uptake by this time next year, well that's contemptible. It won't even be within 2 years. As others have already stated, the ban on disk brakes in cyclocross was rescinded 2 seasons ago but their use remains in the minority. And their benefits in terms of tyre clearance is for more obvious than any application on the road. Rule changes do not dictate equipment use, they simply open up choices. And how many teams are going to take the option to increase costs by giving their riders more options?
Finally, in my experience, the hope that the introduction of discs will drive increased sales is misguided. Our club members are starting to emerge from their garages/winter hibernation, some with new steeds under them. Not one has a disc-equipped ride.

I agree with this. Nice post. My point previous. Only the guys with the Cash to splash buy anything their idol rides. It would need all teams to ride discs " become the norm" for the sales impact to go bonkers. I just don't see it happening and if it did it's going to take quite a few years.
I would like to think that we can keep some tradition in cycling and not let it turn into a F1 fest. Having said that being a weight weenie the interest in frame development and new materials could be exciting.

 

[dsut4392]

I'm actually seeing the market for disc brakes starting in the middle range, as opposed to 'trickle-down' from 'money no object' bikes. There are quite a few disc equipped bikes popping up under average joes, even if hard-core riders and Freds are still shunning them.
I can only think of two rides in the last few years when I wished I had disc brakes on my road bike, both of which involved being caught out in torrential rain within an hour's ride from home - once when a truck pulled out from a side street in front of me, the other was merely a smashed TV on the bike track. Both were narrowly avoided, but I had no hope of stopping in time. I'm not going to toss my road bike and buy a disc brake equipped bike tomorrow, but when time comes for a new bike it will have hydraulic discs. Until then, those times when it is raining (or threatening to) I'll continue to choose to go mountain biking instead, or ride my commuter instead of the road bike.

 

[Master50]

yesterday was a fender ride. No rain just wet roads. got home an cleaning the bike the brake pads are packed with grit the brake tracks are dirty so it is obvious that is a little aluminum coming off with every stop. Perfect conditions for disk brakes. A few guys are riding CX bikes with fenders and disks but there are at least 2 road bikes yesterday. IE not enough room for 32mm tires or CX setup.
Most are Ti bikes so far. A lot of mid level bikes are appearing with disk brakes. Many are city bikes, some are CX, a few are high end road.

 

[winkybiker]

Re:

yesterday was a fender ride. No rain just wet roads. got home an cleaning the bike the brake pads are packed with grit the brake tracks are dirty so it is obvious that is a little aluminum coming off with every stop. Perfect conditions for disk brakes. A few guys are riding CX bikes with fenders and disks but there are at least 2 road bikes yesterday. IE not enough room for 32mm tires or CX setup.
Most are Ti bikes so far. A lot of mid level bikes are appearing with disk brakes. Many are city bikes, some are CX, a few are high end road.

Yep. Wet riding is the only reason I will get a disc-braked road bike. My next purchase will be a decent winter bike for fender club rides and wet commuting. It will have hydraulic disks and proper fenders, but still be light enough and allow an identical position to my "race" bikes. (It will NOT have SRAM discs because those brake hoods must be killed with fire in the name of all things holy.)

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

yesterday was a fender ride. No rain just wet roads. got home an cleaning the bike the brake pads are packed with grit the brake tracks are dirty so it is obvious that is a little aluminum coming off with every stop. Perfect conditions for disk brakes. A few guys are riding CX bikes with fenders and disks but there are at least 2 road bikes yesterday. IE not enough room for 32mm tires or CX setup.
Most are Ti bikes so far. A lot of mid level bikes are appearing with disk brakes. Many are city bikes, some are CX, a few are high end road.

Yep. Wet riding is the only reason I will get a disc-braked road bike. My next purchase will be a decent winter bike for fender club rides and wet commuting. It will have hydraulic disks and proper fenders, but still be light enough and allow an identical position to my "race" bikes. (It will NOT have SRAM discs because those brake hoods must be killed with fire in the name of all things holy.)

At least on that we agree..spam, sham, slam, scam....sram...