discussion!!! greipel.

[ImmaculateKadence]

In terms of power, he could smoke Cav in a sprint finish.
I am sure: We will see stronger stages by Greipel on this Tour or next year. On a good day, I guess he is not only one of the fastet men in the field but the fastest.

What are you basing that on?

toally agree

Gilbert has proven himself, is No 1 in the world, is in great form, has a legitimite shot at green and the stage was more his style that Greipels. I cant imagine why ANYONE would think that Gilbert should have been leading him out ...

The finish was more suited to Greipel's strengths. Looking at the way it unfolded with Cav losing position, Greipel had a better chance of taking that sprint if Gilbert would have sacrificed himself with a proper lead-out. Head-to-head Greipel has no answer for Cav, but with Cav in a bad position, Greipel had a better chance of holding off Cav. Lotto lost that stage because Gilbert got greedy...that's just how I perceive it though.

He isnt good enough to have a team built around him like Cav ....

True, but he is good enough to deserve a legitimate shot at a stage win. Especially, since he helped Gilbert through his classics campaign and on Stage 1.


Funny. I never thought I would defend, Greipel, but Gilbert has been rubbing me the wrong way.

 

[hrotha]

Greipel wil get his chance tomorrow. Gilbert got team orders not to mix it up in the sprint tomorrow.
What do you guys recon his chances are?

The hierarchy goes something like Cavendish, then Farrar and Petacchi (when in form, which doesn't seem to be the case), then Greipel, EBH, Goss and Ventoso, then Rojas, Feillu, Bozic, Hushovd, Hinault and the rest. IMO anyway.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

His job IS a domestique. He isnt good enough to have a team built around him like Cav ....

But he didn't sign on the basis of being a domestique. And how do we know he isn't good enough, if the parameters are the same as they were last year (ie he's not a solitary raider, a task which plays away from Greipel's strengths)?

So far what we know about Greipel is:

- he is very good against weaker fields with a strong leadout
- he is not so good against strong fields with no leadout
- he is a willing workhorse (he was one of these at HTC too, note that on one of the mountain stages of the Giro in 2010 it's him that leads the péloton onto it, but he's really excelled in this role at Lotto)

What we don't know about him is:
- how good he is against weaker fields with no leadout
- how good he is against stronger fields with a strong leadout.

Greipel certainly strikes most as the kind of sprinter that needs a leadout. He's a pure power grinder, not really got the snap acceleration of a Cavendish, and his positioning is sometimes suspect.

He proved that he was too good for the second tier, and deserved a chance to test himself against the very best.

He hasn't come out of it looking as good as many hoped or expected, but then he's been fighting them on different terms. Last year the choice of races were on Cav's terms, but in the race he was sprinting against everybody else on HIS terms. His team dictated the pace, his team did the leadout. This year he's sprinting against everybody else on THEIR terms, and he hasn't adapted to that.

He won't be the first or the last sprinter to struggle with that transition.

 

[Look381]

discussion!!! greipel

Cheers to Greipel. He wanted to ride the big races like the tour, Cav would never give him a shot. So now he rides them, and like ever sprinter except Cav and Farrar he does not have a dedicated team, so he struggles. The fact that he is prepared to give it all for Gilbert gives us a pretty good clue as to who was the problem at HTC.
Greipel decided he would rather have a chance to at least ride the big races rather than keep winning smaller ones. Fair enough, I would rather have a chance in the big time than be told what scraps I could have by a gitr like Cav.
I had hoped that when McEwan faded away we would get a top sprinter with class, but we got Cav who is jsut as bad as McEwan. Glad that at least Farrar is showing you don't have to be a git to succeed.

 

[taiwan]

The annoying thing about all this is that through having the misfortune to be the other sprinter on a team with Cav, a false label of bad loser or small time has been applied, and the media and the fans sucked it right up, ran with it, long term. IMO, it's just Cav being a c**t. I feel like the whole discussion about this rider has acquired a negative spin, and it's simply a dirty tactic Cav used on a rival.

 

[AussieGoddess]

The annoying thing about all this is that through having the misfortune to be the other sprinter on a team with Cav, a false label of bad loser or small time has been applied, and the media and the fans sucked it right up, ran with it, long term. IMO, it's just Cav being a c**t. I feel like the whole discussion about this rider has acquired a negative spin, and it's simply a dirty tactic Cav used on a rival.

I have to disagree with the bolded bit. Goss and Cav seem to be doing just fine, and Goss won MSR .... so got a chance in a big race. HTC did a lot of work for Goss yesterday, so he isnt being made to do it on his own either.

I am NOT a Cav fan by any means, and I think he was an *** to Greipel, not because he was another sprinter .... but purely because he didnt like him

I do hope Greipel gets his chance today on a flat stage which is much more suited to him .... but I also hope that Gilbert gets to fight for Green. I dont know that those 2 things are possible on the same team though, so I personally think Gilbert's possible Green is much more achievable and is better for the team that Greipels possible win.

 

[Tuarts]

You know he's a domestqiue in sky for Tour and not spritner. He worked his sokcs off today to keep Thomas earlier at top of the race, and DS's is very much apprecating his efforts.

At the start of the Tour they were talking about Swift and EBH sharing the sprinting duties.

Yes.

Stage 3, the train was Thomas - EBH - Swift. Swift lost Hagen's wheel at around the flamme rouge and as well all saw, Thomas lost everyone elses wheel coming around that corner.

Stage 5 was for Hagen who went to early and today all 3 decided who was better off, they came to the logical conclusion and Swift helped Thomas + Hagen up to 3km, Thomas protected Hagen up the hill and the rest is now history.

You would think with the stage tomorrow they will ride for Swift. Hasn't really performed noticeably yet but he may have first tour jitters.

 

[Ragerod]

The annoying thing about all this is that through having the misfortune to be the other sprinter on a team with Cav, a false label of bad loser or small time has been applied, and the media and the fans sucked it right up, ran with it, long term. IMO, it's just Cav being a c**t. I feel like the whole discussion about this rider has acquired a negative spin, and it's simply a dirty tactic Cav used on a rival.

Cav isn't devious enough or patient enough to do something like that. Cav's contribution to Greipel's image was mostly limited to him speaking without thinking. He allowed journalists plenty of opportunities to twist his words to make a good story and all of a sudden unfavourable opinions between team-mates became a public spat causing irreconcilable differences.

I do hope Greipel does well and OPL give him the support he needs. He has won stages at GTs and there aren't many guys who can win 20 times in a season, even if they are against weaker fields. If Greipel is in front with 200 to go only a handful of guys can come past him.

 

[42x16ss]

Why isn't Adam Hansen in the OPL Tour squad? Hansen was a huge part of the Highroad train at the 08 Tour as well as the Vuelta and Giro. He has worked closely with Greipel and Cavendish as towtruck/leadout pilot and OPL leave him out when they want Greipel to go after stage wins

 

[ElChingon]

Gilbert needs to do a 2004 Cunego Lead out on this stage , should put things in order.

 

[Love the Scenery]

Let's go back to a time before these two disliked each other. It's the Giro, 2008. Cav has just won his first two GT stages. Greipel is leading out Cavendish for the sprint in stage 17. The leadout has been so ruthless that with 50m to go nobody can catch either Greipel or Cav. Cav looks around, sees no threat, eases up, and lets his teammate win. Look at the photo: Cav is obviously delighted in his teammate's victory. Cav had already won two stages at that Giro and Greipel had worked hard for him, so here was payback from Cav to a top teammate.

The problem started after the stage win when Greipel refused to acknowledge that the stage was gifted to him. Greipel took this to be an insult, refused to thank Cav for the gift, and claimed that he had outsprinted Cav. Instead of thanking Cav, Greipel got angry and said that it was a lie that Cav had gifted him the stage, he took it to be a lack of respect from Cav for Cav to say that it was a gift.

My opinion: Cav is now and always has been the faster sprinter. When someone gifts you a stage in return for your hard work, like Contador gifted Tiralongo at this year's Giro, you acknowledge the gift and say thank you. Cav gifted Greipel stage 17 of the 2008 Giro and then refused to acknowledge it. From then on, knives were out. Since then Cav has won 16 TdF stages to move into the top 10 all-time. And Greipel ... well, he'll be in the Turkish cycling hall of fame.

 

[Love the Scenery]

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/giro08/?id=/features/2008/giro08_andre_greipel_17

Cavendish and Greipel were delivered to the line by the likes of German Tony Martin, Australian Adam Hansen and Brit Bradley Wiggins, who were able to control the final ten kilometres perfectly. After reeling in the last man from the day's breakaway, Mikhail Ignatiev of Tinkoff Credit Systems, then spoiling the effort of CSC's Jens Voigt, the team was able to prevent Milram's lead-out man, Alberto Ongarato, from pushing into their train.

"We wanted to win as a team and we won as a team."

-Greipel dispelled any notion that the win was a gift, or any cause of a rift.

Normally, Greipel would be the last man leading out his young team-mate Mark Cavendish, who took two previous stage wins. When the black and white team led through to the final corner where Greipel took the lead, he never relinquished that position and took his first Grand Tour stage.

...

Coming into the last corner at 250 metres to go, it was Greipel leading Cavendish, Daniele Bennati (Liquigas) and Erik Zabel (Team Milram), and the order did not change at the finish line.

"It was the plan that I was first into the last corner. The team did a really good job. They did a really good lead-out, no one could follow us. Tony Martin did the lead-out before and I started my sprint." It was then a case of, "Who[ever] can pass me can pass me."

Nobody passed him, not even his team-mate Cavendish, winner of two stages thus far in the 91st Giro d'Italia. The Manx-man was busy keeping an eye on the position of Bennati through the final 250 metres, not concerning himself with winning the sprint. "If Bennati had accelerated then, I would have accelerated too," explained the 23-year-old Cavendish, who was actually the first of the two High Road riders to raise his arms in victory at the line.

While the press was keen to make an issue out of the team's second man coming to the line ahead of its star sprinter, Greipel downplayed the idea that the win was a gift from Cavendish. "I think he tried to pass me," he insisted. "I think if you are a sprinter you want to win." Regardless, the stage winner knows that a team victory is important no matter which member of the team takes it.

 

[Love the Scenery]

In terms of power, he could smoke Cav in a sprint finish.

Oh, really? I hope you watched today's stage. Looked to me like Greipel took on Cavendish head to head, and Cavendish easily beat him. I hope that's the last we'll hear about Greipel being better than Cavendish.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

lol @ all the greipel haters and disbelievers here. he showed today he rode the ebst sprint despite again no help or train. this guy can be a force against cavendish, no doubt

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Oh, really? I hope you watched today's stage. Looked to me like Greipel took on Cavendish head to head, and Cavendish easily beat him. I hope that's the last we'll hear about Greipel being better than Cavendish.

lol, are you blind? greipel already started his sprint 500 metres from the finish from the 20th wheel. and nearly got there. amazing sprint!

 

[Anonymous]

If only he have a sprint train.

 

[Mambo95]

lol, are you blind? greipel already started his sprint 500 metres from the finish from the 20th wheel. and nearly got there. amazing sprint!

It's the fact that he was in 20th wheel to begin with that is his problem - always has been.

 

[c&cfan]

lol, are you blind? greipel already started his sprint 500 metres from the finish from the 20th wheel. and nearly got there. amazing sprint!

yes. and cav was looking at him and won with more than one bike lenght. maybe pet was second... greipel is so amazing! make a train for him and he will be magically faster right?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's the fact that he was in 20th wheel to begin with that is his problem - always has been.

Yes, this encapsulates it pretty well.

In terms of power and top end speed Greipel's among the very best. But he benefited from the HTC leadout train way more than Cav, because Greipel's positioning sense is comparatively weak; very few wins of his come from foraging alone. And thus it would be much more interesting if Greipel was on the end of a strong train and Cavendish foraging alone behind him à la Robbie McEwen, as Cav has shown on a number of occasions that he can do this pretty well.

The thing with that 2008 stage is simply that wires were crossed in reportage. Cavendish said he let Greipel take the stage, Greipel said he was fast enough to take it anyway.

Both were probably right. But Greipel's statement was predicated on the modifier "if Cav hadn't been in my wheel", because Greipel's leadout started very late and very strong and he did indeed outsprint every other sprinter. Cav saw Greipel's statement as disrespectful as it didn't take note of Cav having been in his wheel and likely able to come around him, and Greipel felt Cav's statement was disrespectful as it suggested that he wasn't fast enough to win without Cav sitting up, and that he had dropped everybody and come close enough to the line that he merited the win.

 

[Ragerod]

Good effort by Greipel but today did highlight his two problems, positioning and explosiveness, which can be minimised with a good train.

He went early today but he needed those 50 metres to reach top speed and if he is forced to do it by himself then I don't think he has enough to beat Cav (unless he gets a good jump).

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I don't understand how people could think Greipel has speed comparable to Cav. What has he shown to make people think that? When Cav kicks he explodes forward; Greipel doesn't have that acceleration. Today's sprint was almost effortless for him. Ok, Greipel did hold speed for probably 50 meters more than Cav, but need I remind you about Cav's win on stage 5? He had no lead out, came from just as far back, and still crushed the field. What about the champs-elysees sprint last year? He had no lead out and passed Thor (who was being led-out) as though he were standing still. And from how far back was his Milan-sanremo win? Every excuse people have used for Greipel losing, Cav has overcome.

 

[jens_attacks]

awesome sprint by gorilla,loved it.a trully sprinter of the '90s riding on pure muscle power starting from a long distance,no sprint train.chapeau!
he might win a stage of this tour,i'd like to.

 

[c&cfan]

awesome sprint by gorilla,loved it.a trully sprinter of the '90s riding on pure muscle power starting from a long distance,no sprint train.chapeau!
he might win a stage of this tour,i'd like to.

petachi isn't like him.. same for cav and cipo.

he isn't a pure sprinter. he looses against pure sprinters. how can you call that awesome? what about feillu? what about greipel losing to petachi? when he (greipel) was at top speed and cav put the hammer down, jeez... what a difference.

 

[jens_attacks]

don't care.i like how he looks as a sprinter,bulky and all.of course cav is the fastest of all of them

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't understand how people could think Greipel has speed comparable to Cav. What has he shown to make people think that? When Cav kicks he explodes forward; Greipel doesn't have that acceleration. Today's sprint was almost effortless for him. Ok, Greipel did hold speed for probably 50 meters more than Cav, but need I remind you about Cav's win on stage 5? He had no lead out, came from just as far back, and still crushed the field. What about the champs-elysees sprint last year? He had no lead out and passed Thor (who was being led-out) as though he were standing still. And from how far back was his Milan-sanremo win? Every excuse people have used for Greipel losing, Cav has overcome.

The top end speed between the two might be comparable (or Cav may be ahead but only slightly).

However, few would argue that Cavendish's acceleration is far, far superior to Greipel's, which is what makes the difference.

Some sprinters have explosive acceleration which gives them a burst that few can match, but sometimes fade. Andrea Guardini, for example, is one of these. Some sprinters have massive top end speed, which means they can hold off challengers, but the riders with that explosive acceleration can get the jump on them. André Greipel is one of these.

What makes Cavendish so good is that he has one of the best, if not the best, bursts of acceleration in the field, and matches it with having pretty much the best top end speed too.

If we were to compare it to GC men; the Guardini types are your Schlecks, Antóns and Rujanos, dancing on the pedals in the mountains accelerating away from the diesels. The Greipels are your Menchovs, Evanses and Leipheimers, setting high tempos but not as adept at changing up or down speed quickly. The Cavendishes are like Contador.