discussion!!! greipel.

[c&cfan]

The top end speed between the two might be comparable (or Cav may be ahead but only slightly).

However, few would argue that Cavendish's acceleration is far, far superior to Greipel's, which is what makes the difference.

Some sprinters have explosive acceleration which gives them a burst that few can match, but sometimes fade. Andrea Guardini, for example, is one of these. Some sprinters have massive top end speed, which means they can hold off challengers, but the riders with that explosive acceleration can get the jump on them. André Greipel is one of these.

What makes Cavendish so good is that he has one of the best, if not the best, bursts of acceleration in the field, and matches it with having pretty much the best top end speed too.

If we were to compare it to GC men; the Guardini types are your Schlecks, Antóns and Rujanos, dancing on the pedals in the mountains accelerating away from the diesels. The Greipels are your Menchovs, Evanses and Leipheimers, setting high tempos but not as adept at changing up or down speed quickly. The Cavendishes are like Contador.

agree with you..

however, what makes you believe that greipel's top speed is bigger than all the others besides cav?

 

[Parrulo]

The top end speed between the two might be comparable (or Cav may be ahead but only slightly).

However, few would argue that Cavendish's acceleration is far, far superior to Greipel's, which is what makes the difference.

Some sprinters have explosive acceleration which gives them a burst that few can match, but sometimes fade. Andrea Guardini, for example, is one of these. Some sprinters have massive top end speed, which means they can hold off challengers, but the riders with that explosive acceleration can get the jump on them. André Greipel is one of these.

What makes Cavendish so good is that he has one of the best, if not the best, bursts of acceleration in the field, and matches it with having pretty much the best top end speed too.

If we were to compare it to GC men; the Guardini types are your Schlecks, Antóns and Rujanos, dancing on the pedals in the mountains accelerating away from the diesels. The Greipels are your Menchovs, Evanses and Leipheimers, setting high tempos but not as adept at changing up or down speed quickly. The Cavendishes are like Contador.

freire would prolly be a better example then gardini for the accelarations because more people here know him while some may not know who gaurdini is. still that is a very good analysis like always libertine

 

[Mr Pumpy]

Err..hello... Greipel wasn't second he was third.... behind Petacchi who didnt have a train either. Cavendish was looking over at him and only doing enough to pip him over the line. Greipel was spent way before the line.

Good sprinter, but not top class.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

agree with you..

however, what makes you believe that greipel's top speed is bigger than all the others besides cav?

Greipel doesn't have an especially good burst, and he sometimes struggles for positioning. But all those wins don't come by magic.

I don't think he's necessarily faster than "all the others bar Cav". He's up on a par in terms of top speed with most of the best, but maybe not all. When he's lost out to the top guys it hasn't been his speed that has let him down (see today's sprint for evidence, where he comes from way back). However, most of the absolute top guys are smarter sprinters than he is, and once you get to the élite level, the tiniest fraction of a m/s is enough to make the difference between winning and coming 5th. Especially when you have to rely on that top-end speed because your explosiveness is lacking compared to some of the other elites.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Err..hello... Greipel wasn't second he was third.... behind Petacchi who didnt have a train either. Cavendish was looking over at him and only doing enough to pip him over the line. Greipel was spent way before the line.

Good sprinter, but not top class.

I don't know who the Top Class consists of then, unless you simply have a class of Cavendish, and then the next level of élites next (which wouldn't be unreasonable at times).

Losing out to Petacchi is no shame, look at Ale-Jet's palmarès. Where Ale-Jet benefits over Greipel is cleverness. Ale-Jet has been there, done that, and knows how to get himself up there. Watching him and Danilo Hondo in the leadout train is amazing at times. There can be times when they're four men apart, at opposite sides of the train. Then, just when they need it, suddenly they materialise together right where they need to be.

Danilo Hondo is the best leadout man in the sport, despite all you may have heard about Mark Renshaw.

 

[Parrulo]

I don't know who the Top Class consists of then, unless you simply have a class of Cavendish, and then the next level of élites next (which wouldn't be unreasonable at times).

Losing out to Petacchi is no shame, look at Ale-Jet's palmarès. Where Ale-Jet benefits over Greipel is cleverness. Ale-Jet has been there, done that, and knows how to get himself up there. Watching him and Danilo Hondo in the leadout train is amazing at times. There can be times when they're four men apart, at opposite sides of the train. Then, just when they need it, suddenly they materialise together right where they need to be.

Danilo Hondo is the best leadout man in the sport, despite all you may have heard about Mark Renshaw.

many people rate renshaw over hondo because he launchs cav at faster speeds. but i would say those 2 are prolly the best leadouts out there. one thing is for sure the way hondo and petachi fight the 9 man train and sometimes beat it is something to behold. most overacted lead out man must be julian dean

 

[Libertine Seguros]

many people rate renshaw over hondo because he launchs cav at faster speeds. but i would say those 2 are prolly the best leadouts out there. one thing is for sure the way hondo and petachi fight the 9 man train and sometimes beat it is something to behold. most overacted lead out man must be julian dean

Renshaw's speed and ferocity is incredible, and he certainly is strong enough to avoid being pushed around, as well as doing a fair amount of pushing other people around himself to keep wheel, but I don't know that he that often has to do the amount of work, certainly not the wide variety of work, that Hondo has to do. Stage 4 last year was brilliant - Danilo Hondo single-handedly did what the entire péloton couldn't find a way to do in 2009, and wrecked the HTC train nearly a full kilometre out.

 

[Parrulo]

Renshaw's speed and ferocity is incredible, and he certainly is strong enough to avoid being pushed around, as well as doing a fair amount of pushing other people around himself to keep wheel, but I don't know that he that often has to do the amount of work, certainly not the wide variety of work, that Hondo has to do. Stage 4 last year was brilliant - Danilo Hondo single-handedly did what the entire péloton couldn't find a way to do in 2009, and wrecked the HTC train nearly a full kilometre out.

that was indeed brilliant.

 

[kurtinsc]

I don't know who the Top Class consists of then, unless you simply have a class of Cavendish, and then the next level of élites next (which wouldn't be unreasonable at times).

Losing out to Petacchi is no shame, look at Ale-Jet's palmarès. Where Ale-Jet benefits over Greipel is cleverness. Ale-Jet has been there, done that, and knows how to get himself up there. Watching him and Danilo Hondo in the leadout train is amazing at times. There can be times when they're four men apart, at opposite sides of the train. Then, just when they need it, suddenly they materialise together right where they need to be.

Danilo Hondo is the best leadout man in the sport, despite all you may have heard about Mark Renshaw.

Well, you have Cav in a class by himself.

Then you have Farrar and Petacchi.

Then there's a large group who are all very good sprinters who are just a small step behind Farrar and Petacchi and a larger step behind Cav. Greipel is in that group, but so are guys like Bos, Thor, Haussler, Bennatti, Boasson Hagen, Swift, Henderson, Goss, Rojas, Feillu and many others.

A lot of people want to put Greipel up there with Farrar and Petacchi... but I don't see it. He was at that level with the HTC train... but not without it so far.

 

[montagna lunga]

I've never really cared for Greipel. I've always felt he was an overrated sprinter and kind of a wimp, constantly complaining about his place on a team with an obviously faster and more talented sprinter.

say the kids name...slowly..... greip - el ... ironic, isn't it? Who's surprised at the whining?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Greipel easily has more speed than Rojas, Henderson or Boasson Hagen. Those guys aren't pure sprinters. Neither is Goss, but Goss might have as much speed as him.

In fact I'd say he's faster than pretty much everybody you've named there in terms of top speed. Thor, like Petacchi, is too smart for Greipel.

Some of those guys are lone rangers though - Rojas, Feillu. Those guys can't rely on the team helping them out. Greipel is, at the moment, a lone ranger too, and he's putting in better results than them. Greipel is better than all the sprinters Sky have right now, and that's with them having a full leadout. Sky have a very good leadout but the guys on the end are just lacking that tiny bit extra; Henderson was a leadout man for that self-same André Greipel in 2009.

The exception in your list is Bos. Bos is probably faster in terms of top end speed, but even worse at tactics and positioning.

 

[kurtinsc]

Greipel easily has more speed than Rojas, Henderson or Boasson Hagen. Those guys aren't pure sprinters. Neither is Goss, but Goss might have as much speed as him.

In fact I'd say he's faster than pretty much everybody you've named there in terms of top speed. Thor, like Petacchi, is too smart for Greipel.

Some of those guys are lone rangers though - Rojas, Feillu. Those guys can't rely on the team helping them out. Greipel is, at the moment, a lone ranger too, and he's putting in better results than them. Greipel is better than all the sprinters Sky have right now, and that's with them having a full leadout. Sky have a very good leadout but the guys on the end are just lacking that tiny bit extra; Henderson was a leadout man for that self-same André Greipel in 2009.

The exception in your list is Bos. Bos is probably faster in terms of top end speed, but even worse at tactics and positioning.

He's been beaten by the guys I mentioned on a regular basis.

Look... I'm not good at judging who has better "top end speed" or "positioning". I can tell who wins and who doesn't though.

In the three sprints this year, he was beaten by Farrar, Feillu, Rojas, Hinnault, Cav, Thor, Dean and Bozic on one, Cav, Gilbert, Rojas, Gallopin and Thomas on another, and Cav and Pettachi on the 3rd.

In Turkey without the HTC train, he won one stage that didn't have other sprinters contesting it, and lost in sprints to Van Hummel and Guardini. He was beaten in Gent-Wevelgem by Boonen. Finished ahead of Farrar in K-B-K due to Farrar having a pedal issue, but lost to Sutton. Beaten in TDU sprints by Goss, Swift and Matthews.

Other then his one Algarve sprint win... he's done almost nothing to indicate he's any better then the people mentined int he previous paragraph.

I don't know what he is missing. I have no idea what his top speed is. But with HTC he was at the Farrar/Pettachi level. Without it... he is in the next big group of guys as a sprinter.

 

[Andre.J]

Greipel should stick to helping Gilbert. That's what he's paid for. He has cost his own team mate points. Kick him out I say. Gilbert better win the Green or there will be hell.....well not really...the team is breaking up anyway

 

[Ragerod]

Greipel should stick to helping Gilbert. That's what he's paid for. He has cost his own team mate points. Kick him out I say. Gilbert better win the Green or there will be hell.....well not really...the team is breaking up anyway

Greipel was signed to win stages. He's wasted as a domestique.

 

[Mambo95]

Libertine Seguros has been exposed by this thread. The King of the Sprint Haters has been unmasked and shown for the keen and astute student of the post flamme rouge arts he or she really is.

 

[Andre.J]

He's not really wasted if he helps Gilbert get the Green. Let him try and get his stages in La Vuelta. This is going to turning ugly I think.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Libertine Seguros has been exposed by this thread. The King of the Sprint Haters has been unmasked and shown for the keen and astute student of the post flamme rouge arts he or she really is.

The sprint itself can be quite interesting provided it isn't an absolute barrelled fish shoot like many HTC love-ins can be. It's the 180 kilometres of tedium that set it up that I object to.

Hence I prefer the sprints with technical run-ins, or a small obstacle near the finish, that puts the trains off guard. The less organised the sprint, the more I tend to be interested. You have the danger factor of course, which isn't so good, but it means that a rider's positioning and timing become even more important, and the sprinter has to do more work themselves than is often done in sprint stages. Hence why the only sprinters I really like are those who (a) can get over tough obstacles en route, (b) tend to forage alone because they're the underdogs against the power trains, and (c) don't ride for HTC.

 

[LugHugger]

No worries boys and girls. Greipel will be back to winning the prestigious Krakow stage of the Tour of Poland next month.

Then we will see where all the haters are hiding.

LOL

Didn't Cavendish say something about Greipel winning "sh*t small races"?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Err..hello... Greipel wasn't second he was third.... behind Petacchi who didnt have a train either. Cavendish was looking over at him and only doing enough to pip him over the line. Greipel was spent way before the line.

Good sprinter, but not top class.

petacchi couldn't have been placed better while greipel was placed like sh**

 

[Mambo95]

The sprint itself can be quite interesting provided it isn't an absolute barrelled fish shoot like many HTC love-ins can be. It's the 180 kilometres of tedium that set it up that I object to.

But that's the thing. On non-mountain stages, there's 180km (usually 150) of tedium whatever happens, HTC or no HTC (it's more down to the the other teams for not getting involved). Stage 5 was as good as it gets (and that was a really good flat stage) - yet still HTC won.

I feel you're yearning to see Classics style racing in a GT stage. We both know that's unrealistic.

I feel you are in touch with the Dark Side, young padowan. Give in to your urges. Feel the beating of the heart in the last 5km. Darth Manx will embrace you.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Well, you have Cav in a class by himself.

Then you have Farrar and Petacchi.

Then there's a large group who are all very good sprinters who are just a small step behind Farrar and Petacchi and a larger step behind Cav. Greipel is in that group, but so are guys like Bos, Thor, Haussler, Bennatti, Boasson Hagen, Swift, Henderson, Goss, Rojas, Feillu and many others.

A lot of people want to put Greipel up there with Farrar and Petacchi... but I don't see it. He was at that level with the HTC train... but not without it so far.

farrar is not better than greipel, farrar is very strong but overrated sprinter, look how badly he got beaten by fast sprinters like haedo in tirreno. farrar is totally dependant on train and highspeed finish. so is greipel but greipel has more power and is faster in top speed. greipel won way more than farrar when he had a good train

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Greipel should stick to helping Gilbert. That's what he's paid for. He has cost his own team mate points. Kick him out I say. Gilbert better win the Green or there will be hell.....well not really...the team is breaking up anyway

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I feel you're yearning to see Classics style racing in a GT stage. We both know that's unrealistic.

It is indeed unrealistic and idealistic. This is why I often favour the eradication of the flat stage in stage races entirely.

 

[Mambo95]

petacchi couldn't have been placed better while greipel was placed like sh**

This is absolutely it. I never used to like Petacchi, but in the last few years (as a Cav fan) I have appreciated he and his team organise themselves to derail Cav. Him and Hondo are really smart. (Unfortunately, so is Cav and he doesn't let it happen again).

Greipel, though, has been indulged by the HTC train. The HTC train really only came into existence after Cav won 4 stages in 2008 (with Ciolek as leadout). He benefited from that. Although he still tended to lose wheels - something Cav rarely does. EBH, Henderson and Goss have all won GT stages as lead-outs when Greipel went missing.

I think he's a good sprinter. No. 4 in the world. Even with team support, he'd probably be no. 4.

 

[Mambo95]

It is indeed unrealistic and idealistic. This is why I often favour the eradication of the flat stage in stage races entirely.

Didn't this year's Giro try that. I don't think it was a success.

Ignoring the GC crashes (and I'm British), the first week of the Tour has been very good, I think.