- Mar 18, 2009
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Benotti69 said:Basso joined Discovery in 2007. so i imagine he was getting a Ferarri program or staying with Fuentes, then got done for links to Fuentes and a 2 year holiday.
But if you remember the liquigas train at last years Giro(2010), reminiscent of a certain blue train. his first GT after suspension and he wins. Not bad for a guy on mineral water
Actually, Basso returned in 2009: he was fifth in the Giro that year, and 4th in the Vuelta, so the 2010 Giro was his 3rd post-suspension GT. And the way he won last year's Giro, by less than 2 minutes, was entirely different from his 2006 performance.
None of which is to say he's clean, by the way.
- Apr 20, 2009
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The greatest irony with regards to Cadel Evans is watching him get lambasted in forums like this for his inconsistent highs and lows by vehemently anti-doping posters, when those results are probably a much greater indication that he is riding cleaner than most. If he is on a program, he should find a new one; like the riders that he is loosing to use.
I'll declare straight out that I am a BIG fan of Evans. He was killing it on the mtb seen when i first started getting into mtb and I have followed him ever since. I have now adored both mtb AND road for 10 years (though i havn't ridden road, only mtb).
I have quit 'liking' or 'not liking' riders based on existence or level of doping allegations, rumours, suspicions or even convictions. It may influence my 'respect' for certain attributes of their character but it does not effect my opinion of them as riders in terms of style, approach, guts, intelligence etc etc... if most (maybe all of the top guys dope then it is a moot point anyway). I do not know the reality of being a pro so i make no absolute judgements. It's just is not worth it anymore. I wish cycling was clean but it has never been and may never be. Same goes for most sport in general. It sucks but what the hell can we do? I love cycling/sport too much to stop watching/following it. The money brings too great an incentive to cheat so people have no choice but to cheat or quit unless they are superhuman freaks.
That being said, if Evans is proven to be a doper, I will lose massive respect for him but I will still be a big fan, just as I am of many other proven dopers. (Sorry for the long intro. I'm new here so I think providing some background context to my overall feelings of doping will help clarify the intent of my analysis of Evans)
So, do i think Evans dopes? Going by what I have heard, seen and read throughout this forum and all of the other credible sources across the net the threads link too... it would seem to VERY optimistic to hope that Evans does not dope in at least SOME way or another... Be it 'only for recovery'... be it 'only a little bit' for whatever reason that MAY make it a little less culpable than others. (The ultimate moral culpability of 'how much' a rider dopes is a complex philosophical discussion. I will not even attempt to speak to it at length here. For my mind at least, there is simply too much grey to make absolute judgments. Philosophically, such a discussion goes far beyond the realms of cycling, sport and even competitive pursuits in general. Cheating, as it were, is basic human nature). On the other hand, but by the same token, it is not entirely unrealistic to believe that he is and has always been doped to the gills. There is no solid, and very little thin, evidence (that i am aware of) to support such a belief but I am open to any new information. Without that information though, the idea that he was doped to the gills is solely based on circumstantial evidence that he 'has beaten and/or competed with many other cyclists that we KNEW were doped to the gills'. Well, again, that is not a wholly unreasonable assumption, but it cannot seriously be counted as anything other than purely circumstantial and entirely speculative theory mongering. And such logic leads to absolute chaos in terms of suspicion of ANY good rider/performance EVER. It already has lead to that. Maybe, however sad, it is warranted.
I have followed Evans quite closely (And i believe 'fairly' objectively) and a few things have struck me as different with his overall approach to cycling and doping which bend me to believe/hope a little more that he either does not dope period or that he dopes much less and 'only for recovery'.
Though he obviously loves cycling and has a strong drive/hunger to win (obvious by how high strung he gets during le tour and his emotional outbursts of anger and/or 'tears of joy' at various times esp. the WC win), he also seems to have a very balanced view of his life. He seems to love his wife, dog and life very much. He seems aware of his faults both personal and professional, appreciative of what he has, content with what he has won etc. He seems to have some serious perspective and reflective ability. He is quietly intelligent. Many have the impression that he is awkward and not well spoken due to high stress post race interviews. This can be true. But when he is relaxed and discussing serious issues he is very thoughtful, balanced and well spoken Watch the youtube clip of him talking about a road death near where he lives on the bellarine peninsula http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FknbS9y28hM&NR=1).(and he doesn't have a media team writing for him a la LA). He does not take himself or anything else too seriously. He even seems naively genuine at times. This may all seem superfluous, but I don't think it is as it shows that he is deeper 'than your average' and seemingly rides and lives for the right reasons (though the 'right reasons' is obviously subjective). Quite simply, the guys still loves riding his bike and always has. He is very human and seemingly genuine. None of this is proof of anything, obviously, but it doesn't hurt.
He makes/has made (sorry i can't specify which but you'll just have to take my word) little barely veiled jabs/intimations regarding having been beaten by dopers in the past, as if he is saying 'well of course i have been and I will be again'. He says these things with irritation and resignation but he never slams a rider for anything even after he is proven guilty (these points could obviously be taken to argue upholding of omerta too). He is always fair and balanced when asked about riders under investigation. He basically says 'I obviously don't know all the details. I hope it's not true and it's a pity if it is'. He staunchly denies ever having used but does not go out of his way to try and prove it by posting results or other gimmicks. He just says that Sassi hates it and he hates it and they work there arses off as hard and smart as possible. I guess he can let his record do most of the talking. He is generally very fair and reserved in his comments regarding doping and dopers. He will give an accused the guy the benefit of the doubt until proven but really just refuse to get involved in any real opinions or soundbytes. I think, more than this being indicative of upholding the omerta, it is more just that he doesn't like to make comments regarding such serious personal matters for others for which he has little to no information about. This just smells of basic human decency and sensitivity to me. NO ONE but the media and outside analysts SHOULD be making personal comment on these issues before they have been resolved.
In terms of performance. Much has already been covered in this thread. His performances, for various reasons, do seem more 'natural'. Sassi implied that he had more physiological talent/potential than Basso but a little less guts. Who knows how that pans out over a three week tour... too many variables. Cadel has this relentless litany of misfortune and half-arsed support in GTS such that we have never really seen whether he could win without the 'badness' or not. I fully understand and agree that these instances of bad luck, in and of themselves, could be (are) due to other weaknesses he has in terms of tactical nous, preparation and clutch performance/pressure handling. These are valid points and he has no ultimate excuses. He simply has not won a GT (though 24s to Contador and then a slim margin to 'Sastre-super-luck-super-team' virtually ALONE and INJURED is undeniably proof that he could have won both those tours). Without such weaknesses I believe his pure cycling potential most definitely should/could have landed him at least tour 08 and the 'wheelgate' Vuelta and 10 Giro. But it hasn't and may not.
If he has not doped at all then he is a FREAK and maybe the greatest cyclist we've seen in the last decade. If he has not doped anywhere near as much as others then he is still a freak. If he has doped just has much then he is a very solid but unremarkable all rounder. If he has doped more... an idiot laughing stock that should have quit years ago.
I think he would have to dope for recovery at the least. But I simply don't know enough to fully believe anything.
Someone said in the 'is evans the greatest of our gen thread' something like 'talk to some of the guys he raced mtb with'. This was to imply that 'they would tell you he was juiced'. I would be interested to hear more details regarding that comment. By itself it is vague and completely unsubstantiated hearsay mudslinging nonsense that ANYONE could say. Any veracity to these claims would be interesting to hear? I have never been anywhere past casual club level racing so have no first hand knowledge or experience of doping or it;s culture. I just read a lot and follow cycling pretty closeley as a fan.
Any reasonable cycling fan would have doubts about Evans based purely on the known realities of the peloton. Those doubts would just seem to be LESSER than just about any other top flight contender in the last 20 years (that i know of). His known record is as pure as it gets. His popular reputation the same. Any accusations are clutching at straws.
Can someone please either post something remotely substantial that actually leads somewhere in terms of 'evidence for doubt' or just stop discussing it? Seems like digging for **** in a diamond with the current evidence we have to go on...???
I would be the first to call him a scumbag for using Sassi's death as shield of cleanliness if he was proven to be a doper. That would be unforgivable. I simply don't believe he is morally capable of such abhorrent behaviour. He is pretty much EVERYTHING that Lance is NOT. He will even have -7 tour wins if he can't win this year
I have quit 'liking' or 'not liking' riders based on existence or level of doping allegations, rumours, suspicions or even convictions. It may influence my 'respect' for certain attributes of their character but it does not effect my opinion of them as riders in terms of style, approach, guts, intelligence etc etc... if most (maybe all of the top guys dope then it is a moot point anyway). I do not know the reality of being a pro so i make no absolute judgements. It's just is not worth it anymore. I wish cycling was clean but it has never been and may never be. Same goes for most sport in general. It sucks but what the hell can we do? I love cycling/sport too much to stop watching/following it. The money brings too great an incentive to cheat so people have no choice but to cheat or quit unless they are superhuman freaks.
That being said, if Evans is proven to be a doper, I will lose massive respect for him but I will still be a big fan, just as I am of many other proven dopers. (Sorry for the long intro. I'm new here so I think providing some background context to my overall feelings of doping will help clarify the intent of my analysis of Evans)
So, do i think Evans dopes? Going by what I have heard, seen and read throughout this forum and all of the other credible sources across the net the threads link too... it would seem to VERY optimistic to hope that Evans does not dope in at least SOME way or another... Be it 'only for recovery'... be it 'only a little bit' for whatever reason that MAY make it a little less culpable than others. (The ultimate moral culpability of 'how much' a rider dopes is a complex philosophical discussion. I will not even attempt to speak to it at length here. For my mind at least, there is simply too much grey to make absolute judgments. Philosophically, such a discussion goes far beyond the realms of cycling, sport and even competitive pursuits in general. Cheating, as it were, is basic human nature). On the other hand, but by the same token, it is not entirely unrealistic to believe that he is and has always been doped to the gills. There is no solid, and very little thin, evidence (that i am aware of) to support such a belief but I am open to any new information. Without that information though, the idea that he was doped to the gills is solely based on circumstantial evidence that he 'has beaten and/or competed with many other cyclists that we KNEW were doped to the gills'. Well, again, that is not a wholly unreasonable assumption, but it cannot seriously be counted as anything other than purely circumstantial and entirely speculative theory mongering. And such logic leads to absolute chaos in terms of suspicion of ANY good rider/performance EVER. It already has lead to that. Maybe, however sad, it is warranted.
I have followed Evans quite closely (And i believe 'fairly' objectively) and a few things have struck me as different with his overall approach to cycling and doping which bend me to believe/hope a little more that he either does not dope period or that he dopes much less and 'only for recovery'.
Though he obviously loves cycling and has a strong drive/hunger to win (obvious by how high strung he gets during le tour and his emotional outbursts of anger and/or 'tears of joy' at various times esp. the WC win), he also seems to have a very balanced view of his life. He seems to love his wife, dog and life very much. He seems aware of his faults both personal and professional, appreciative of what he has, content with what he has won etc. He seems to have some serious perspective and reflective ability. He is quietly intelligent. Many have the impression that he is awkward and not well spoken due to high stress post race interviews. This can be true. But when he is relaxed and discussing serious issues he is very thoughtful, balanced and well spoken Watch the youtube clip of him talking about a road death near where he lives on the bellarine peninsula http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FknbS9y28hM&NR=1).(and he doesn't have a media team writing for him a la LA). He does not take himself or anything else too seriously. He even seems naively genuine at times. This may all seem superfluous, but I don't think it is as it shows that he is deeper 'than your average' and seemingly rides and lives for the right reasons (though the 'right reasons' is obviously subjective). Quite simply, the guys still loves riding his bike and always has. He is very human and seemingly genuine. None of this is proof of anything, obviously, but it doesn't hurt.
He makes/has made (sorry i can't specify which but you'll just have to take my word) little barely veiled jabs/intimations regarding having been beaten by dopers in the past, as if he is saying 'well of course i have been and I will be again'. He says these things with irritation and resignation but he never slams a rider for anything even after he is proven guilty (these points could obviously be taken to argue upholding of omerta too). He is always fair and balanced when asked about riders under investigation. He basically says 'I obviously don't know all the details. I hope it's not true and it's a pity if it is'. He staunchly denies ever having used but does not go out of his way to try and prove it by posting results or other gimmicks. He just says that Sassi hates it and he hates it and they work there arses off as hard and smart as possible. I guess he can let his record do most of the talking. He is generally very fair and reserved in his comments regarding doping and dopers. He will give an accused the guy the benefit of the doubt until proven but really just refuse to get involved in any real opinions or soundbytes. I think, more than this being indicative of upholding the omerta, it is more just that he doesn't like to make comments regarding such serious personal matters for others for which he has little to no information about. This just smells of basic human decency and sensitivity to me. NO ONE but the media and outside analysts SHOULD be making personal comment on these issues before they have been resolved.
In terms of performance. Much has already been covered in this thread. His performances, for various reasons, do seem more 'natural'. Sassi implied that he had more physiological talent/potential than Basso but a little less guts. Who knows how that pans out over a three week tour... too many variables. Cadel has this relentless litany of misfortune and half-arsed support in GTS such that we have never really seen whether he could win without the 'badness' or not. I fully understand and agree that these instances of bad luck, in and of themselves, could be (are) due to other weaknesses he has in terms of tactical nous, preparation and clutch performance/pressure handling. These are valid points and he has no ultimate excuses. He simply has not won a GT (though 24s to Contador and then a slim margin to 'Sastre-super-luck-super-team' virtually ALONE and INJURED is undeniably proof that he could have won both those tours). Without such weaknesses I believe his pure cycling potential most definitely should/could have landed him at least tour 08 and the 'wheelgate' Vuelta and 10 Giro. But it hasn't and may not.
If he has not doped at all then he is a FREAK and maybe the greatest cyclist we've seen in the last decade. If he has not doped anywhere near as much as others then he is still a freak. If he has doped just has much then he is a very solid but unremarkable all rounder. If he has doped more... an idiot laughing stock that should have quit years ago.
I think he would have to dope for recovery at the least. But I simply don't know enough to fully believe anything.
Someone said in the 'is evans the greatest of our gen thread' something like 'talk to some of the guys he raced mtb with'. This was to imply that 'they would tell you he was juiced'. I would be interested to hear more details regarding that comment. By itself it is vague and completely unsubstantiated hearsay mudslinging nonsense that ANYONE could say. Any veracity to these claims would be interesting to hear? I have never been anywhere past casual club level racing so have no first hand knowledge or experience of doping or it;s culture. I just read a lot and follow cycling pretty closeley as a fan.
Any reasonable cycling fan would have doubts about Evans based purely on the known realities of the peloton. Those doubts would just seem to be LESSER than just about any other top flight contender in the last 20 years (that i know of). His known record is as pure as it gets. His popular reputation the same. Any accusations are clutching at straws.
Can someone please either post something remotely substantial that actually leads somewhere in terms of 'evidence for doubt' or just stop discussing it? Seems like digging for **** in a diamond with the current evidence we have to go on...???
I would be the first to call him a scumbag for using Sassi's death as shield of cleanliness if he was proven to be a doper. That would be unforgivable. I simply don't believe he is morally capable of such abhorrent behaviour. He is pretty much EVERYTHING that Lance is NOT. He will even have -7 tour wins if he can't win this year
la.margna said:a clean top 25 GT rider???!!!! c'mon............
David Moncoutie came 13th back in 2002, and he's got to be the cyclist least likely to be doping.
- Jul 28, 2009
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People are saying he isn't as good in his 3rd week, and while that may be so he is still a guy who finished 2nd (twice) and fifth in the TDF, won a world champs, and had a couple of great finishes in the giro and vuelta.
I cannot come up with another rider that had these kinds of results this last decade and that rider wasn't implicated somehow with doping. He at least doesn;t have the doping rumours surrounding him, which is a plus.
Having said that, i just have a very hard time believing that there are non-dopers that can get the results Evans got. And even if this is possible i just don't have much faith in Evans. This is very imo and can't explain it very well but to me his personality has something strange to him, like he is hiding something.
It is a sorry state of affairs though that i have come this far that i basically think that a guy like evans is a doper, without a shred of evidence that goes further then 'he wins, he rode for t-mobile and mapei, i find him weird'.
I cannot come up with another rider that had these kinds of results this last decade and that rider wasn't implicated somehow with doping. He at least doesn;t have the doping rumours surrounding him, which is a plus.
Having said that, i just have a very hard time believing that there are non-dopers that can get the results Evans got. And even if this is possible i just don't have much faith in Evans. This is very imo and can't explain it very well but to me his personality has something strange to him, like he is hiding something.
It is a sorry state of affairs though that i have come this far that i basically think that a guy like evans is a doper, without a shred of evidence that goes further then 'he wins, he rode for t-mobile and mapei, i find him weird'.
- May 26, 2010
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Roninho said:People are saying he isn't as good in his 3rd week, and while that may be so he is still a guy who finished 2nd (twice) and fifth in the TDF, won a world champs, and had a couple of great finishes in the giro and vuelta.
I cannot come up with another rider that had these kinds of results this last decade and that rider wasn't implicated somehow with doping. He at least doesn;t have the doping rumours surrounding him, which is a plus.
Having said that, i just have a very hard time believing that there are non-dopers that can get the results Evans got. And even if this is possible i just don't have much faith in Evans. This is very imo and can't explain it very well but to me his personality has something strange to him, like he is hiding something.
It is a sorry state of affairs though that i have come this far that i basically think that a guy like evans is a doper, without a shred of evidence that goes further then 'he wins, he rode for t-mobile and mapei, i find him weird'.
Has Carlos Sastre been implicated in doping? apart from riding for Riis? which if that implicates him then Evans is implicated for riding in T-Mobile.
- Jul 28, 2009
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That actually is a nice one. The teams that he rode for don't help his case, and some might have different interpretations on the situation with his brother in law (you could say: he would be stupid to use after the guy got killed, or you could say: that guy used, so why not carlos?).Benotti69 said:
Anyway, Sastre is also a good mention for not being implicated directly and getting good results.
eatyourvitamins said:
...you should have just stopped there. Maybe...MAYBE 3 other people will read your post. Everyone else just looks at it and says, "f**k that."
Thoughtforfood said:
We've had our differences recently, but you're spot on there. "F that" is exactly what I thought. I doubt even ACF made it half way through
- Jun 16, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Thanks for the compliments. I furthered my reading into the history of cycling which has helped me form stronger views on dopers. I have reason to believe and trust Cadel because from what I have heard on the grape vine, my interpretations of Cadel's comments and what riders who seem to have integrity say and think about Cadel. Though on the contrary there are things that I would like ask Cadel about if I ever had the chance to have a proper talk to Cadel (not sure how I would bring the dopin conversation upThe Hitch said:ACF has been very impressive recently with his open minded approach to Australian cyclists and evem a bit to Evans (though not too much about BMC
If he wasnt clean, why would people say that he is, hence he must be clean. Yes, it sounds stupid to me too, but the guy honestly believes it. As do Andrew fanboys about Schlecklet.
) because some things need to be questioned. I think people who are fans of riders need to be prepared that their favourite rider could be a fraud. Personally, if you can't believe in something or someone in life then life isn't really worth living or in this case, it isn't really worth watching the sport.Boeing said:
There is a picture of his Dad in Cadel's book and he has a bigger jaw line than Cadel. I am pretty sure it is apart of his genetic features.
Mambo95 said:
Okay, I will never call you a fanboy again...(I knew you weren't anyway, I was just being an a$$hole)
skidmark said:
No, because of his climbing partner in last year's TdF. I would also suggest that a pros from English speaking countries dope quite frequently.
auscyclefan94 said:Thanks for the compliments. I furthered my reading into the history of cycling which has helped me form stronger views on dopers. I have reason to believe and trust Cadel because from what I have heard on the grape vine, my interpretations of Cadel's comments and what riders who seem to have integrity say and think about Cadel. Though on the contrary there are things that I would like ask Cadel about if I ever had the chance to have a proper talk to Cadel (not sure how I would bring the dopin conversation up
There is a picture of his Dad in Cadel's book and he has a bigger jaw line than Cadel. I am pretty sure it is apart of his genetic features.
A realistic fanboy? Ahh run, the sky is falling
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