Doping In Athletics

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

............
He was incredible then and is incredible now.
.............

I could not agree more.

Which bit of what you write, don't you believe in ?

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Let's disregard Bolt for a minute and look at the overall picture. How many of the all-time fastest times have been run since 2005-2006? 80-90 percent? How large a percentage of all sub10s have been run in the same period? Rodgers (who?) has run 13-14 sub-10 this year alone.

Remember back when it was quite an achievement to run a sub-10? Remember back when Lewis and Christie would sometimes do it? I guess the human race has evolved a lot in the last twenty years. Only in Cycling and Athletics though. New Clean Area and all that.

Bringing Bolt back into our discussion again, how can we not view him as an Armstrong figure at the top of a hierarchy of drug users?

You ... and the others of your "we" can view him any way you like; I, as well as others with dissenting opinions accept that. So fill your boots ...comrade.

Do you have anything to contribute to the debate, other than just sporadically repeating "i will always think he is clean" at different points in the thread.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Wait did anyone check if Bolt's lane had a tailwind?

Even though the guys running in the lanes next to Bolt said they felt a strong headwind, that does not change the fact that 80% of the race had a tailwind. Some was less exposed some of it was more exposed...but the vast majority of the race had a tailwind. If you look at the map you see it was North for much of the day, but it was South-East in the stadium when Bolt ran.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Wait did anyone check if Bolt's lane had a tailwind?

Even though the guys running in the lanes next to Bolt said they felt a strong headwind, that does not change the fact that 80% of the race had a tailwind. Some was less exposed some of it was more exposed...but the vast majority of the race had a tailwind. If you look at the map you see it was North for much of the day, but it was South-East in the stadium when Bolt ran.

Did you even look at the flags?

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Irondan]

Gatlin having a bad race in the race that he needed to be great.. priceless.

 

[poupou]

Did you see that idiot ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdqLE4IgPYU
Can we believe he is clean?

 

[sniper]

Re:

Did you see that idiot ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdqLE4IgPYU
Can we believe he is clean?

that guy might not last long.
IAAF have a point to prove and he doesn't speak English, so do the math...

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

you still think bolt is likely clean?
you think he knows what's on the banned list in the first place?

On balance, I do think Bolt is likely clean. Can't be certain, of course, but have followed his career since he first made waves as a junior and it's the view I hold at the moment. Been through all this on here before though.

There are some athletes/cyclists I'm pretty sure dope, some I am suspicious of and some that, on balance, I don't see enough damning evidence against. They won't necessarily coincide with prevailing wisdom in the clinic. If it happens to be a clinic bogeyman/woman (Bolt/Radcliffe) thein it usually brings out the worst in some posters who seem to regard a failure to agree with their view as confirmation of my stupidity/nationalism (a particularly crass one)/naivety/ ignorance etc.

Whatever you think the chance is that Bolt is clean, it's less than the chance Gatlin is clean.

In your head, fine. There is no factual or statistical basis for that comment.

There is. But I already know guys like you and Cram believe doping is mainly about purity of character, not about incentives and how good the tests are, how often athletes are tested, how athletes are performing. That stuff is the actual evidence relevant for whether someone's doping. You need to ignore all that and instead zero in on whether someone is a good hero or an evil cheater to reconcile believing Bolt to be less likely to be doped than Gatlin.

If you want to be iternally consistent that is. If you give that up and embrace irrationality, you can go ahead and believe Bolt is clean because he passed a few tests and Gatlin is not despite passing them as well.

 

[flying_plum]

What's the deal with Bolt thanking his doctor? That just seemed odd to me, to namecheck your doctor, in a climate of doping allegations. Is he messing with people?!

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

What's the deal with Bolt thanking his doctor? That just seemed odd to me, to namecheck your doctor, in a climate of doping allegations. Is he messing with people?!

Bolt could thank Dr Ferrari and name lance Armstrong as his inspiration and the media and his fans still wouldn't bat an eyelid.

 

[flying_plum]

Re: Re:

What's the deal with Bolt thanking his doctor? That just seemed odd to me, to namecheck your doctor, in a climate of doping allegations. Is he messing with people?!

Bolt could thank Dr Ferrari and name lance Armstrong as his inspiration and the media and his fans still wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Ha, true! People really don't want to believe he dopes - my father in law, usually the world's most cynical man - was ardent in his support yesterday. If they've got him, there's no hope.

 

[BigMac]

I'm deeply more bothered by the fact that he's an utter show-off act than by the high probability of him being on drugs. He's mixed breed of José Mourinho and a WWE actor.

 

[the sceptic]

Doping knowledge within athletics media and fans is probably 20 years behind cycling, so the "never tested positive" mindset is very much valid with these people. I've tested this theory on some friends of mine whose doping knowledge comes from whatever they pick up in the media and they all think Bolt is cleans for this reason.

(they also subscribe to the "doping is something others do, not us" theory)

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Believing that it's possible for Bolt to beat known dopers means you have to believe that doping doesn't give you that much of an advantage.

The effects of doping are huge. A clean athlete simply cannot beat a doped one - they can't even come close. If a "clean" athlete (someone who hasn't been caught yet) is destroying known dopers - dopers who are training just as hard as the "clean" athlete - that "clean" athlete is also doping. It's that simple.

I would agree with you , if we are talking about endurance drugs. We are not though, not used for the same context if they are used " for recovery not benefits of long endurance"

I have no doubt that the Drugs /roids taken by sprinters will give them a advantage,,,,,

but we are talking about a athlete who has smashed records since a youngster and there is no evidence or links of Bolt doping as a youngster.
He was incredible then and is incredible now.
Obvioulsy a big question mark looms but I would not bet my house on it that he has doped.

No way bolt is clean. Look who he works with, ex BALCO and Doc Muller. I wouldn't put it past him to have doped as a teenager on Jamaica.

Lance Armstrong doped as a teenager.

But there is no evidence or hints/ links, contacts that he doped as a youngster.

Do you have any evidence that drugs don't work in sprinting as much as endurance?

From what I can see you just made that up, somehow convinced yourself of it, and are now selling this factually incorrect delusion on forums as some sort of a fact.

First off Mr Hitch I was talking about endurance drugs, NOT DRUGS in general. So don't even go there.
You want to talk about different drugs and there benefits lets go.
Reply with facts not innuendo.


So do you think taking EPO or any endurance type drug will be of benefit in the speed needed in 10 seconds.
They may well aid in recovery but I doubt very much their endurance benefits will come into play in under 10 seconds ....

different matter

I see some of you all up in arms again. Relax its just a race.
If someone can show me some "evidence" not assumption that Bolt was doped when he was a youngster than I will happily change my mind. He smashed all records as a youngster and has not stopped since.
He may well be doped but I am not convinced.
its no good mentioning Armstrong etc , I never ever thought Armstrong was clean or all the others that come up.
Bolt is different, He has a pedigree of smashing world records all through his career unlike the others who we talked about.

I don't believe in unicorns but Santa is real , NASA have him on their radar

 

[panyagua]

Re: Re:

Maybe this article will help some people in this debate?

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/12/bernstein-usain-bolt-is-probably-doping-and-you-know-it/#.Vdre8j6Dig0.twitter

How comes that person was able to publish that article without any legal action?

US Law is a little more forgiving than the stupid UK ones.

Not more "forgiving" but rather, it leans much more towards protecting free speech, particularly when it concerns public figures, than it does protecting plaintiffs. The article makes factual statements about Heredia, discusses the sad state of affairs in track and field as well as the fact that the absence of positive tests hardly means that an athlete is clean. Nowhere does it explicitly state that Bolt MUST be doping (and in a CYA move, the headline says "probably").

Still. It's close enough to per se libel in that it goes directly - and negatively - to his ability to perform his job (athlete that earns a ton based on his reputation and ability to market products) that I'm sure Bolt's attorneys looked it over and sent off a threatening letter but knew that it just fell short of the threshold for filing a successful suit.

 

[Cloxxki]

If a blonde heptathon chick can run 10.83 clean, what can dark colored women with west-African heritage accomplish? Like, 10.5 in a bit of tail wind?

EDIT: 10.81 already.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

What's the deal with Bolt thanking his doctor? That just seemed odd to me, to namecheck your doctor, in a climate of doping allegations. Is he messing with people?!

Diack, former head of IAAF publicly stated in an interview if Bolt's positive, then so is Diack. Meaning, there is no way Bolt is ever testing positive. Ever. Bolt is the equivalent of an Armstrong to cycling. He transcends the sport to some degree. The IAAF knows and Bolt knows he's never testing positive. He may as well thank the PEDs he's running.

Seppelt's latest story confirms what I have suspected all along. Most elite international podiums are doped and few are ever sanctioned.

The Bolt/Gatlin thing is an artifice. The sport needs a rivalry and the IAAF has made one.

 

[mrhender]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/24/justin-gatlin-boycott-bbc-uk-media-biased-reports?CMP=share_btn_tw

Justin Gatlin vows to boycott BBC and UK media over ‘biased’ 100m reports

The world 100m silver medallist, Justin Gatlin, has vowed to boycott the BBC and other British media at the championships in protest at their “biased” reports of his clash with Usain Bolt in Beijing.

The US sprinter, twice suspended for taking banned substances, was narrowly beaten by just one hundredth of a second by Bolt in a race that had been characterised as a battle for the soul of the sport or a clash between “good and evil”.

“He’s saved his title, he’s saved his reputation – he may have even saved his sport,” enthused the BBC commentator Steve Cram as Bolt crossed the line in 9.79sec, fractionally ahead of the seemingly unassailable Gatlin.

Footage posted on Twitter showed Brendan Foster and other BBC commentators celebrating as Bolt crossed the line and Gatlin is understood to have shunned the three different interviewers from the BBC after the race.

The sprinter believes he has been unfairly vilified by not only the BBC but the rest of the British media, who he feels have focused disproportionately on his doping past.

“Justin, as well as I, feel that the British media and journalists have been extremely unkind to him. There’s been nothing positive said about him now for some time. Every characterisation is solely about doping and vilifying him,” his agent Renaldo Nehemiah told the Guardian.

“So, to maintain his own dignity and self respect, he feels it best not to speak to them. It’s very unfortunate, but he’s been hurt tremendously by these attacks. And as human beings, we should be better than that. The BBC in particular should report without lacing their comments and reporting with biased views.” The BBC has yet to comment.

The US sprinter was first banned in 2002 after amphetamines were found in his system related to medication he had been taking for attention deficit disorder for 10 years. A two-year ban was later reduced to one.

His second ban in 2006, initially eight years but later halved to four, was blamed on testosterone he claimed was rubbed into his buttocks by a masseur with a grudge.

Since coming back to the track in 2010, the 2004 Olympic champion has gone faster and faster. Until his defeat by Bolt in the 100m final, Gatlin had gone 29 races unbeaten and at the age of 33 recorded a personal best of 9.74sec in Doha.

He has insisted that it is unfair to call him a “two time doper” given the nature of his first offence. “There’s no end to this,” he told Sports Illustrated earlier this year. “I served my time. I did my punishment. I sat out four years and here I am, still getting punished for something that happened to me, literally, a decade ago.”

Gatlin was asked three times about his doping past in the post-race press conference on Sunday night and each time answered: “I am thankful.”

When he was then asked whether he thought the sport’s governing body, the IAAF, would be relieved that Bolt had won he again replied: “I am thankful.” His questioner walked out in disgust.

US athlete Justin Gatlin gives his reaction after winning the silver medal, 0.01 seconds behind Usain Bolt in the World Athletics Championships in Beijing.
For his part, Gatlin may believe there is nothing more to be said on the subject and feels unfairly singled out given there were three other competitors in the final who had also served doping bans (the Americans Tyson Gay and Mike Rodgers, along with Bolt’s Jamaican team-mate Asafa Powell).

Gatlin will clash again with Bolt in the 200m later this week, with the final on Thursday due to be just the second time they have raced over the distance.

Before winning the vote to become the next president of the IAAF, Sebastian Coe had said the prospect of Gatlin winning the 100m made him feel “queasy”. But he subsequently said that there was nothing in the rules to prevent the American running having served his bans.

The International Olympic Committee president, Thomas Bach, said last week he would favour lifetime bans but accepted they were not legally enforceable. “If you have an athlete who has served his suspension then he has the right to participate in championships,” he said.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

Relax its just a race.

Is it? What would you call "we want it to look like a competition on the field, but everyone knows the competition is off the field, doping."

It's not grammar school PE either. Lots of money passing back and forth for some people running some short distances.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

I'm deeply more bothered by the fact that he's an utter show-off act than by the high probability of him being on drugs. He's mixed breed of José Mourinho and a WWE actor.

Isn't that a great formula for attracting an audience? Bolt is the IAAF's Lance Armstrong in every sense.

 

[mrhender]

Meanwhile:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/24/mo-farah-back-training-alberto-salazar?CMP=share_btn_tw

Mo Farah will be back training with me soon, says Alberto Salazar

Mo Farah’s coach, Alberto Salazar, has told the Guardian he is increasingly confident the United States Anti-Doping Agency’s investigation into him will find no evidence of any wrongdoing and insisted the two-time Olympic champion would be staying with his Nike Oregon Project training group despite recent rumours to the contrary.

Salazar has bitten his tongue since Usada began interviewing his athletes, including Farah, in June. Instead he preferred to focus on getting his stable of Olympic and world medallists – who include Farah, Galen Rupp, Matthew Centrowitz and Shannon Rowbury – battle-ready for this week’s world championships.

Speaking in Beijing, Salazar said: “You should put your money on me being cleared – it’s a winning bet. Everything I wrote in my statement back in June will be shown to be correct.”

In that 11,750-word statement Salazar rejected all allegations by the BBC and the US news website ProPublica that he violated a series of anti-doping rules, which included claims that he gave Rupp testosterone when he was 16, and said the accusations had left “innocent athletes’ careers tarnished with nothing but innuendo, hearsay and rumour”. Rupp has insisted he is “dedicated to clean sport” and said the “allegations were not true”.

Neither the BBC nor ProPublica made any allegations against Farah and there is no suggestion of any wrongdoing on his part but Britain’s most successful athlete ever has been caught in the crossfire. It meant that in the two months before the world championships Farah trained in Font Romeu, in the French Pyreenes, under the supervision of the British head of endurance, Barry Fudge, rather than Salazar’s watchful eye.

According to Salazar, though, things will return to normal when Farah returns to Oregon to begin winter training in October. “Nothing has changed with Mo, and nothing will,” he said. “Mo will be back with us.”

Salazar also said that he had been the mastermind behind Farah’s sensational gold-medal winning 10,000m display in Beijing on Saturday, writing him workouts in the run-up to the championships that were administered by Fudge. “Mo’s last major session involved running a mile at altitude in 3min 55sec, and then running intervals of 1,200m, 1,000m, 800m, 600m and 400m, a workout I devised for him and emailed to British Athletics,” he said. “His final 400m was run in 51 seconds.”

So good was Farah’s performance in the 10,000m final, when he ran away from two worthy Kenyans on the home straight, that it only confirmed Salazar’s impression that the Briton deserves to be ranked at least as highly as such distance legends as Haile Gebrselassie and Kenenisa Bekele. “Mo was exceptional and with those six Olympic and world medals I really think he has a case to be the best middle-distance runner of all time now,” said Salazar.

Perhaps the lack of an outdoor world record counts against Farah in the all-time rankings but his medal haul seems certain to rise again when he races in the 5,000m final on Friday. He has also shown his huge versatility this season, running the 1500m in 3min 28.49sec – the fourth fastest time in the world this year – and a half marathon in 59min 32sec – the third fastest in the world.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: long

ha ha.......that's as funny as his nibs turbo attack in the vuelta

today had to stop watching beeb highlights of day 2 iaaf worlds.............whole

commentary team went completely over the top with praise for darling jess

then i saw pic of that jamaican sprinter doing a 'flo jo' with flowers

in her hair....................

Mark L

Reminding ourselves nearly 30 years now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpkB3CdlGCM

And this is awesome. Remember the West Germans were attempting to mimic the GDR doping programs, so this is like top trumps doping for the top 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhtFClCScpQ

2015 and the Jamaicans have the track to themselves. Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better now Bolt is too big to fail.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Relax its just a race.

Is it? What would you call "we want it to look like a competition on the field, but everyone knows the competition is off the field, doping."

It's not grammar school PE either. Lots of money passing back and forth for some people running some short distances.

Huge amounts of money to be made. Political and financial equations. a capitalist money making machine that's pro sport 2015 . Run mostly by a bunch of %%%%s who's main interest is to have power and fill their own pockets and put on a great media show to keep the money ball rolling.

But Its still a race on the track. Men ,women looking to be the best. Doping is just another part of what athletes at the highest level do. Bolt was winning since he was a youngster and unless he doped and there is nothing to suggest he did dope at a young age, he's a real talent.

Doping his a major factor but not always ,look at what happened to JKP in the long jump.
Sport is what it is ,,take it or leave it.

 

[heart_attack_man]

Re: long

Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better now Bolt is too big to fail.

Indeed. Also, nice work on the 'Too Big to Fail' phraseology. It's spot on. Bolt is absolutely the Goldman Sachs of Athletics.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Bolt isnt the LA of T&F, simply coz people went after (and finally got) LA... But no one touches Bolt. A sad story. Now the only hope is he gets his ass kicked by Gatlin in the 200m, and more important at next years Olympics 100m...

Bolt is the most obvious über-doper in all sports ever, worse than Johnson, Horner & Bonds.