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Doping In Athletics

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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
the sceptic said:
Walsh to the rescue!

COyGu80VAAIjEdu.jpg

Walsh who single handily took down Armstrong? Can he do it again?! :cool:

Nope. last tweet was Sept9th. No big article today on Radcliffe in ST.

I guess Walsh is finished with his anti doping stories. Wants to spend his retirement ghosting autobiogs of the sports elites.......

Walsh has fallen flat again. Perhaps he is preparing for his lawsuit from pierre balestier?

Plagiarism is a sin in journalism :rolleyes:
 
Re:

armchairclimber said:
More context... not likely to sway anyone's opinion re. PR but actually, for those interested in coaching and physiology, a fascinating interview.
http://www.runnersworld.com/rt-web-exclusive/gerard-hartmanns-front-row-seat-to-paula-radcliffes-career

First part is going to be a little off-topic, but I want to make this point right away: Who the *** is he to say Paula is "an athlete who wanted it badder and was willing to dig deeper and prepare harder and more meticulously than anyone else." I'll come back to this in a bit...

Some more context: I that I think he is a tool. I don't want to assume that Radcliffe employs him as part of her a media juggernaut, and won't take that arrogance he displays as a reflection of her character. But he is a joke.

So first, here is his academic background:
The blend of physical talent and intelligence earned him a scholarship to the University of Arkansas, where he studied business. On his return to Ireland he got himself a National Certificate in Exercise and Fitness at the University of Limerick, much to Patrick ' s [his father's] anger.

In 1989 he returned to the United States and completed his post-graduate course at the Florida Institute of Natural Health where he qualified as a physical therapist. He did his practical experience at the University of Florida in Gainesville

And one perspective on that background:
In this interview this ‘physio’, and I use the term ‘physio’ carefully as I understand that he is not a fully qualified physiotherapist, and has not been trained on any recognised or accredited course.

I fact the best I can find on Mr Hartmann qualifications is a soft tissue masseuse course he did in the USA back in the 90’s. But apparently this doesn’t stop him calling himself a physio due to a legal loop hole in Ireland where he currently works.

Anyway, this ‘Physio’ goes on to describe a daily routine of hours and hours of soft tissue massage for Paula, claiming to realign joints and bones, fix and correct muscle imbalances and imperfections, and a pre race routine of acupuncture and joint adjustments, and how this is “no stress for me, no stress for the athlete”

As I read this article I feel myself becoming more and more agitated. All I think about is how this ill educated poorly trained, so called therapist masquerading as a healthcare professional can and probably does adversely affect this elite level, highly talented and hard working athlete he has the honour and privilege to work with.

The blog is some rando with a type writer, but let's go down that path.

Building dependence is a big marketing strategy, in anything. But a lot of best health and wellness practices are the opposite of marketing: an effective intervention should decrease dependence. But look at some athlete's testimonials:

She [Radliffe] revelled with very intensive deep tissue massage—three hours a day of very deep tissue work

It was often between three to four hours. Five would be extreme if something was acting up, broken into two treatments, and I can’t think of any other athlete who required that amount. It was driven by Paula saying “this is what I need; this is what works for me,”

I [the journalist] asked Reilly, a former 29:15 10km runner, what Hartmann ' s secret was. Surely he would know? But he merely sighed and said: " You know, I honestly can ' t put my finger on it. "

Douglas Wakiihuri, the Kenyan who won world and London Marathon titles in the late 1980s, once sent a thank you message to his daktari, which read: " I will always run to your healing hands. "

Here's what that blog has to say on building dependance: "Yes healthcare professionals are there to assit and help athletes, but their primary responsibility is to instill a sense of robustness, toughness, and strength, both mentally and physcially with all they they work with. Simply put they should be making these hard working, dedicated, talented people feel invincible, impregnable, indestructible, basically like f**king superheroes,"

I don't know who that blogger is, but the message is still true. It is a very similar situation to Dr. Hans-Muller. It's not science if no one else can do it..
Hartmann drove me to the airport (the only thing he seems to do at less than 100 miles per hour), and on the plane home I asked myself if I had solved this medical mystery.

The answer was: probably not. Gerard Hartmann remains an enigma

It's not science if no one else can do it.

I'm going to skips the research articles, because those won't be helpful to us (the research doesn't have a full understanding of the mechanisms of why massage works, but of course many findings linking it to improved recovery/performance). A practitioner, Patrick Ward, is a good resource for distilling science into practice. Here's what he has to say:

http://optimumsportsperformance.com/blog/soft-tissue-techniques-for-athletic-recovery/ said:
Unfortunately, most therapists have a one-size-fits-all approach to therapy and, no matter what your complaint or need is, you are going to come in, lie on the table and get a deep tissue massage
(Sounds like Hartmann)

And his reference chart for different interventions:
url]


Okay, well, the .png won't display, but in he does give specifics:

In the first group, we are dealing with athletes who have a high level of fatigue and exhaustion. This may come from a period of overreaching or overtraining. Additionally, within this bucket are athletes that have a high level of anxiety (and perhaps may show a higher amount of sympathetic dominance). For the athletes with these complaints our treatment options are to help them attain a more relaxed state. For this, I favor longer massage sessions (60-90min) with a lot of slow compression and long holds of skin stretching. These techniques tend to be very relaxing and provide a therapeutic effect. The suggestion of placing the athlete prone is to decrease the amount of visual input (as well as the urge to talk or speak) and to attempt to get them to shut down for a moment and maybe even fall asleep on the table. Additionally, working on the neck and paraspinals in this prone position seems to evoke a sense of relaxation and have a calming effect on the system.

n the second group we see one of the most common reasons why athletes seek out massage – soreness. The massage technique suggestions for this complaint come from some of the research discussed on my last article as well as the research I discussed in an article two years ago from Crane et al. Both articles explained a massage approach for muscle damage dealing with 5-10min of gliding strokes to the affected muscle region. I also put into this section things like contract relax stretching or pin and stretch modalities as method to engage the athlete, get them to move around a little bit, and, in the process of creating movement with human touch, allow them to perceive themselves as “less sore”.

The final group is one of mobility or “tightness” as well as treatments geared towards maintenance of mobility and tissue quality. The aim of dealing with the athletes in this group is to have a good understanding of where their movement system is currently (what is their baseline) and then determining when they are below their norm (oftentimes, following intense competition or training, the individual may tighten up or stiffen up and lose some of their normal movement). Also, knowing what is normal for the athlete in the sense of tissue quality (tone) and what is abnormal, for that individual, can be extremely important and helpful in guiding your treatment approach. Within this group the modalities selected are more active, engaging the athlete to move and be a participant in the treatment. Thus, things like pin and stretch techniques or active stretching/mobility techniques can be very valuable. Additionally, Dr. Andreo Spina’s work, Functional Range Release, can be extremely helpful for engaging the resistance barrier, applying tension to the tissue, and using things such as PAILs and RAILs to actively engage the athlete with movements into and out of their limited range

Hartmann describes a single intervention: digging in. But for a daily routine, it is clear that digging in is the opposite of what an athlete needs. Relaxation would help so much more. Certainly, an injury or cramped muscle needs it, and the injured athletes that fly in for a special session get what they are looking for. But this comment on the first blog post sums up the issue best:

It would seem Paula has unfortunately surrounded herself with a poor pit crew. But on the other hand maybe she chooses them. Smacks a bit of the Tiger Woods displaced sacrum saga and the idiots he had “helping” him. Not having ever met the woman I can’t comment on her personality, nature etc. Paula is obviously a phenomenal athlete. I liken her 2.15 marathon to a male sub 2hr marathon. But her psyche is something I’m not aware of. Even though her treatment protocol is maddening, maybe she wants that safety net even though I’m sure it has a negative impact. I was reading an article yesterday about Paula’s final marathon preparation for London and her pathway back. There was a period it said of training in Kenya where she got some Achilles soreness. Now blind Freddie would have just calmed her down, looked at the current training volume, adjusted things a little, eased her back in. But no, they threw everything bar the kitchen sink at her from all over Europe.

and even better:

Well said Adam and something that needs saying! It’s seems I spend most of my time trying to undo the mess left behind by this so called care. No one seems to be able to see the negative effects this has on athletes, IMO Paula would of won an Olympic medal but her perceived fragility couldn’t handle the pressure and she ‘broke’, her magnets and other voodoo providing no help when things really mattered.

And stemming off the first comment about Paula's pit crew, here it is (From the Hartmann interview):
"working with a dietitian, a homeopath, an exercise physiologist, physical therapist, osteopath, and collaborating all of that with her husband, Gary, and her coach. "

(I'm going to let the homeopathy angle speak for it self...)

That is a dependent athlete. That is a fragile athlete. She is not the toughest personality in the sport, she is the most delicate personality in the sport. She needs these people. And they couldn't come through for her when it actually mattered. Paula can punish herself, and is willing to suffer, doping or not. Pain tolerance does not fix doubt. Pain tolerance does not fix ineffective supporting personnel. Pain tolerance doesn't keep you healthy. But that this "pain tolerance" somehow translates into an effective athlete is a myth that is repeated over and over and over.

It has to stop.
 
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Hartmann on Lance Armstrong:Comedy Gold

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2012/08/30/hartmann-stands-by-armstrong/

“Nonetheless, he brought joy to the world – to win the Tour de France seven years in-a-row was a wonderful achievement. Think of the time, dedication and training he had to put in.
“From a moral and ethical point of view, I deplore athletes who take drugs.
“However, it is well documented that his Tour de France competitors also took drugs. Lance stuck to his guns when the accusations were flying around about him…the fact is, he never tested positive.
 
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I think there's enough time for Coe and the BBC to retake control of the narrative and clear Paula of any wrongdoing so that she can feature prominently in the BBC's Rio 2016 coverage.
 
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Re:

johndoe99 said:
Hartmann on Lance Armstrong:Comedy Gold

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2012/08/30/hartmann-stands-by-armstrong/

“Nonetheless, he brought joy to the world – to win the Tour de France seven years in-a-row was a wonderful achievement. Think of the time, dedication and training he had to put in.
“From a moral and ethical point of view, I deplore athletes who take drugs.
“However, it is well documented that his Tour de France competitors also took drugs. Lance stuck to his guns when the accusations were flying around about him…the fact is, he never tested positive.

Well found. That puts it in perspective, the guy that defended Radcliffe also defended Armstrong.
 
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SeriousSam said:
I think there's enough time for Coe and the BBC to retake control of the narrative and clear Paula of any wrongdoing so that she can feature prominently in the BBC's Rio 2016 coverage.

I think the cat is out of the bag on this one. This might take a while, but Radcliffe will be viewed with suspicion and someone just might push her to get to court to get the blood values released.......
 
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
SeriousSam said:
I think there's enough time for Coe and the BBC to retake control of the narrative and clear Paula of any wrongdoing so that she can feature prominently in the BBC's Rio 2016 coverage.

I think the cat is out of the bag on this one. This might take a while, but Radcliffe will be viewed with suspicion and someone just might push her to get to court to get the blood values released.......

nope nope nope, still inside the bag, i barely get out of the bag. #noir

cant indulge in my gauloises bleu

#MarshaMarshaMarsha
 
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
the sceptic said:
Walsh to the rescue!

COyGu80VAAIjEdu.jpg

Walsh who single handily took down Armstrong? Can he do it again?! :cool:

Nope. last tweet was Sept9th. No big article today on Radcliffe in ST.

I guess Walsh is finished with his anti doping stories. Wants to spend his retirement ghosting autobiogs of the sports elites.......

Walsh has fallen flat again. Perhaps he is preparing for his lawsuit from pierre balestier?

Plagiarism is a sin in journalism :rolleyes:

This is the revisionist nonsense I see regularly on here. It's all about being clever after the fact is established. I got attacked by some of the mob on here on twitter for pointing this out. Walsh ghost wrote Radcliffe's book in 2005.

I look forward to the lorry load of posts and tweets before reporting on Sky criticising Walsh over this.

FWIW, I happen to agree with Ballester's role being underplayed with Armstrong. But so has Rouet, Bouvet, and Ressiot. Funny you talk about plagiarism but nothing is ever said about Kimmage shouting other people's hard work with Armstrong, considering he wasn't even at those 7 Tours as he preferred reporting on other sporting events in this period.

I never like journalists becoming the story and too much emphasis is put on Kimmage's and Walsh's opinions. That shouldn't be the case and I prefer a journalist's great work being the talking point than the individual themselves.

Take this recent athletics story and cycling "fans" new found love for the sport, how many know the journalists' names with the Sunday Times over their great work with this topic?

That's the way it should be with their brilliant reporting doing the talking.
 
Re: Re:

gooner said:
thehog said:
Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
the sceptic said:
Walsh to the rescue!

COyGu80VAAIjEdu.jpg

Walsh who single handily took down Armstrong? Can he do it again?! :cool:

Nope. last tweet was Sept9th. No big article today on Radcliffe in ST.

I guess Walsh is finished with his anti doping stories. Wants to spend his retirement ghosting autobiogs of the sports elites.......

Walsh has fallen flat again. Perhaps he is preparing for his lawsuit from pierre balestier?

Plagiarism is a sin in journalism :rolleyes:

This is the revisionist nonsense I see regularly on here. It's all about being clever after the fact is established. I got attacked by some of the mob on here on twitter for pointing this out. Walsh ghost wrote Radcliffe's book in 2005.

I look forward to the lorry load of posts and tweets before reporting on Sky criticising Walsh over this.

FWIW, I happen to agree with Ballester's role being underplayed with Armstrong. But so has Rouet, Bouvet, and Ressiot. Funny you talk about plagiarism but nothing is ever said about Kimmage shouting other people's hard work with Armstrong, considering he wasn't even at those 7 Tours as he preferred reporting on other sporting events in this period.

I never like journalists becoming the story and too much emphasis is put on Kimmage's and Walsh's opinions. That shouldn't be the case and I prefer a journalist's great work being the talking point than the individual themselves.

Take this recent athletics story and cycling "fans" new found love for the sport, how many know the journalists' names with the Sunday Times over their great work with this topic?

That's the way it should be with their brilliant reporting doing the talking.

Have no idea what you are saying.

Regardless, there were a few journalists on Twitter recently getting stuck into Walsh for his underhand behaviour. Walsh's Off the Ball interview during the Tour was cringe worthy. He really has sold out and his peers don't appear to respect him much.

I guess he doesn't care. He has cleaned up.
 
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
Have no idea what you are saying.

Regardless, there were a few journalists on Twitter recently getting stuck into Walsh for his underhand behaviour. Walsh's Off the Ball interview during the Tour was cringe worthy. He really has sold out and his peers don't appear to respect him much.

I guess he doesn't care. He has cleaned up.

Of course not.

I seen Shane Stokes' comments. The same guy(like others) who went on Irish radio over the years and repeated Walsh's donkey work with Armstrong.

I listen to Off the Ball regularly. I don't agree with everything Walsh says. I'm talking specifically about the Radcliife situation and cycling "fans" new passion for it. Where are these army of tweets and posts criticising Walsh with Radcliife pre-reporting with Sky?
 
Re: Re:

gooner said:
thehog said:
Have no idea what you are saying.

Regardless, there were a few journalists on Twitter recently getting stuck into Walsh for his underhand behaviour. Walsh's Off the Ball interview during the Tour was cringe worthy. He really has sold out and his peers don't appear to respect him much.

I guess he doesn't care. He has cleaned up.

Of course not.

I seen Shane Stokes' comments. The same guy(like others) who went on Irish radio over the years and repeated Walsh's donkey work with Armstrong.

I listen to Off the Ball regularly. I don't agree with everything Walsh says. I'm talking specifically about the Radcliife situation and cycling "fans" new passion for it. Where are these army of tweets and posts criticising Walsh with Radcliife pre-reporting with Sky?

Hint: Ghost writer.

...and the passion comes from the new information that has come for light and that passion is "doping".

Walsh missed the key information in the Radcliffe book as he did with Froome. He's a fantasy writer.
 
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Re: Re:

Alpe73 said:
In other words, do you advocate a proletarian type overthrow of professional sport or do you envision some other process?

are they different things? my working thesis, is that professional sport, is not sport qua spot, atleast now how we have projected upon it certain values. It is entertainment and now a significant business. Where is the transition to this threshold? well, this is one of those zeno's paradox(es) where this is no line, but there is a feeder system to the professional ranks whether it be in NCAA "collegiate" sport, where Michigan and Texas football teams run an economy like some small state like Luxembourg and pack out games with 60thousand or more, and the second tier in all pro sport leagues, where the rubicon becomes all too manifest to those who make a roster or squad.

The succour moms get left behind, but little johnny still has delusions of tom brady or eddy merckx.

so where are the proletariat who are at the gates? ESPN is still selling ratings, and the dream and any given sunday.

the proletariat, are not the competitors, they are the tail gate'erz, the people drinking Michelob cat's pi$$, and trying to drown out the 9-5 delirium.

the ones in the rabbit hole, are the athletes, it is either be a dope, be doped, or dope yourself. Like the Australian track professional in the 1980s and 1990s, Martin Vinnicombe said, if you are in the kitchen, you gotta get cookin'. MV's own inimitable take on the idiom, if you can't stand the heat in the kitchen.

the proletariat are happy not knowing (the cognitive dissonance this is) just keep on feeding them the fairytales and myth and they think it is foie gras.
 
OK so this high powered legal team Paula has is stooping to read the Lance book of denials and using them.

Well worth 5 minutes of your life reading this from John Wilcockson in Feb 2011.

"Comeback 2.0

Armstrong has been criticized by some for his comeback to the sport in 2009 after a three-and-a-half-year absence, and though he failed to achieve his goal of winning the Tour for an eighth time, his third place did show his children that his success came from hard work and dedication and not from doping; and his aim to publicize and globalize the work of his cancer foundation was fully realized. Livestrong says it has raised some $120 million during the last two years. His comeback also gave a massive boost to cycling in Australia (at the Tour Down Under) and America (Tour of California), and it restored Americans’ interest in the Tour de France.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/02/news/inside-cycling-with-john-wilcockson-armstrong%e2%80%99s-25-year-journey-is-over_160347#QXraOf9pkZgCfaGS.99

I did not spend time searching for an exact quote but this gets the gist. I remember Lance saying that all this doping BS from Floyd and the airtime that serial liar was getting for his false claims was upsetting for his kids.

Paula is now on the sympathy card - "all these nasty false claims against me are destroying athletics and upsetting my kids!"

Oh and that Wilcockson story was great with quotes from the wife of Sky rider of the time Michael Barry. Let's not use male ex colleagues because they have some splatter on them that Floyd and Tyler and spraying all over the place, let's use a "mom". Who could doubt Dede's word ?

On twitter you can see Dede is used in an ad for Oxygen tents and they use her quotes for saying how much they improve athletic performance.

Though not quite as much as that bottle of EPO in the fridge eh Dede.

That piece in 2011 had under 2 years to run before it was seen by everyone for what it was - a cretin masquerading as a reporter, whistling in the wind. The whole Mo, Dawg, Sir Wigans, Paula BS-fest will be making quite a few feel a little uneasy in the stomach. They just can't keep the story straight on their own lives (badzilla, I never rode with Lance he was before my time, I didn't have form in the race & I was unwell, so my blood values were wonky - as I set a PB - Oops) so doubt for those who look is near the surface on the anti-PED stories they peddle.

This still has legs.
 
Re:

The Hitch said:
Glad that was resolved so that athletics can move away from "distractions" like Mo and Paula, and go back to the real important issue - that cheating scumbag Gatlin.

He should be hung drawn and quartered.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you're exaggerating.

I think Usain Bolt would be a good candidate for the clinics scrutiny...

Not that the clinic has ignored Bolt, he just needs more attention I think.
 
Re: Re:

irondan said:
The Hitch said:
Glad that was resolved so that athletics can move away from "distractions" like Mo and Paula, and go back to the real important issue - that cheating scumbag Gatlin.

He should be hung drawn and quartered.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you're exaggerating.

I think Usain Bolt would be a good candidate for the clinics scrutiny...

Not that the clinic has ignored Bolt, he just needs more attention I think.

There's not much discussion left to be had. I even took Ray J Billings off my ignore list after he said he changed his opinion on Bolt. I don't think there are many believers left.
 
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blackcat, I know you like to make some weird posts sometimes, but whats up with the ones fantasizing about athletes having sex? (this isn't the first time)

If its some sort of fetish, couldn't you get off by pressing the "preview" button rather than the "submit" button, or is the knowledge that what you typed is - out there on the interwebz, part of the thrill?
 
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Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
blackcat, I know you like to make some weird posts sometimes, but whats up with the ones fantasizing about athletes having sex? (this isn't the first time)

If its some sort of fetish, couldn't you get off by pressing the "preview" button rather than the "submit" button, or is the knowledge that what you typed is - out there on the interwebz, part of the thrill?

sorry i offended your sensibilities hitch.