Doping In Athletics

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Oct 4, 2011
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mrhender said:
There are many reasons why. See the link i posted above, on study showing massive athlete concern over match fixing. It is real.
Agree it probably happens but on a world stage and so obviously in finals is a stretch. It would tell the bookies to look as its favorites having issues and in finals. One they might get away with but too many for my liking. To throw a race the money would need to be big if betting the issue and is easily found if you know what to look for.
Gut feeling here is something else going on.

Of course it could be a coincidence and I'm just reading this forum too much and its corrupted me :)
 
Jul 11, 2013
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I am not fixed on MF being the reason for the sudden stop. Just pointing out its a likely scenario. Match fixing for betting purposes are just part of the MO. There are many other reasons, see Basso/Armstrong for example.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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I was somewhere between laughing and crying yesterday when I saw a certain Odriozola handing out medals on behalf of the IAAF. The subscript below his name said "IAAF treasurer".

Odriozola? Rings a bell.

Odriozola is the former president of Spanish Athletics and the guy who was neckdeep involved in Operacion Galgo, sending athletes to doping coaches and covering their asses after said athletes got caught.
See e.g.
viewtopic.php?p=1672467#p1672467
viewtopic.php?p=1150288#p1150288

Odriozola later also argued for a 50% reduction of antidoping funds in Spanish athletics.
See here:
viewtopic.php?p=1079207#p1079207

I heard Nick Davies' wife also still works for IAAF.
Not to mention the corrupt likes of Garnier and Saugy.

As someone else suggested, it seems that, to get a top federation role, you need to have been through the corruption equivalent of a gang initiation ritual. Much like the head of Spanish cycling fed earned his 'colours' by delivering tainted steak to Contador.
 
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sniper said:
Tim O said:
This post 100m final press conference gets interesting at the 15m07s mark ......

https://youtu.be/nI8jRwLU220
indeed it does.

Here's a very good article about it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4785414/amp/Why-athletics-lost-drugs-battle.html
That encounter must have been bad karma as he goes out as a dud with that pulled hamstring in the 4X100. No grand finale, no blowing kisses at the ladies, no Jamaican hip dances, no "Bolt" poses. Crash & burn...bad karma. Lol.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Nomad said:
sniper said:
Tim O said:
This post 100m final press conference gets interesting at the 15m07s mark ......

https://youtu.be/nI8jRwLU220
indeed it does.

Here's a very good article about it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4785414/amp/Why-athletics-lost-drugs-battle.html
That encounter must have been bad karma as he goes out as a dud with that pulled hamstring in the 4X100. No grand finale, no blowing kisses at the ladies, no Jamaican hip dances, no "Bolt" poses. Crash & burn...bad karma. Lol.
agree.

For what it's worth, I didn't see anybody pulling his hamstring. I saw somebody faking it.

Here's a reminder of what pulling a hamstring and the aftermath really looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2G8KVzTwfw&feature=youtu.be
 
Jun 6, 2015
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FFS - Radcliffe bestowing the importance of being transparent just now on thew BBC - I almost lobbed the club-hammer through the screen.

I hope the whole thing unravels and her and Mo are finally proven to be systematic cheats and frauds.

*** the pair of them!
 
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London Hibs said:
FFS - Radcliffe bestowing the importance of being transparent just now on thew BBC - I almost lobbed the club-hammer through the screen.

I hope the whole thing unravels and her and Mo are finally proven to be systematic cheats and frauds.

*** the pair of them!
As much as it pains me to agree with a Hibee, I agree. Mrs F, who is a bit naive in these things and a bit of a flag waver, asked me who I thought was clean then in the GB & NI squad. It really took me 30 seconds to reply. I could only come up with Muir and Sharpe.
 
I feel bad for Caster Semenya. She is a genetic freak, but she's a woman. The IAAF hate that she has more testosterone than everyone else, but surely the same logic should apply to marathon runners who have a higher haemocrit or stupidly high haemoglobin levels (assuming they are natural which I know they aren't). Sure it's unfair on the others that she is like this - but it's also unfair on Phelps' competitors that his body is made for swimming, and many others who don't have the same genetic advantage. Genetic advantages are part of the game; sorry, they are the game. Semenya is in my mind at least, one of the more likely athletes to be clean because of her hyperandrogenism.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Brullnux said:
I feel bad for Caster Semenya. She is a genetic freak, but she's a woman. The IAAF hate that she has more testosterone than everyone else, but surely the same logic should apply to marathon runners who have a higher haemocrit or stupidly high haemoglobin levels (assuming they are natural which I know they aren't). Sure it's unfair on the others that she is like this - but it's also unfair on Phelps' competitors that his body is made for swimming, and many others who don't have the same genetic advantage. Genetic advantages are part of the game; sorry, they are the game. Semenya is in my mind at least, one of the more likely athletes to be clean because of her hyperandrogenism.
I largely agree, she's likely clean. And as far as I can tell, a magnificently talented runner, beyond the testosterone. Still, she barely runs faster than a skinny ginger/blonde from The Netherlands did in 1992 when it mattered most.

I am torn when it comes to the likes of Semenya. Her condition is less unique than it seems. Intersex atletes who are women have a huge advantage. If they'd all be lauded and scouted as much as, say, the Chinese or Russians in general, there could be a whole lot more of them taking sports as their monopoly. They won't all be stronger than finalist women, as there are also not a whole lot of men who run 1.54 over 800m. For a man it takes talent and dedication in most every case to come that far. On zero sport and random nutricion, you just don't do it.
If intersex athletes have an edge worth 3 seconds (it's probably much more), how many of them are needed to give sports a go to be sure to dominate?
Perhaps Semenya is hugely talented, just not as a runner. Had she taken up cycling, tennis or XC skiing, perhaps she'd be more unbeatable than Vos, Williams and Bjoergen? I doubt we are seeing the full extent of intersex performance ceilings. Remember that the WR is a good bit quicker still.
Since we have paralympics for hearingg impared runners who can understand you almost perfectly with an ear piece, and mentally challenged ones who are well able to keep a conversation going, why not intersex as a step down from men, rather than a step up from women? It's brutal against the likes of Semenya who were born and raised a girl, but narrowing down the categories of participants a bitt would be fair to millions and just harsh on a few unlucky ones who'd probably not be able to compete without their condition.
What to do with Phelps? Well, his condition is diagnosed. Why not keep his fellow sufferers out of men's swimming?

We had the thing with blade runners. So-so runners lose their legs and start running faster that they'd realistically otherwise would. Semenya with adjusted testosterone levels wasn't quite as fast. So her talent may well be largely technical and mental, not as much physical, at least for track running. She might destroy the field in rowing or javelin.
Athletics at that level is too lucrative, apart from the fame, it will attract all intersex women to give them a better life. Most will grow up in unprivileged homes, compared to the likes of Vos, Sharapova and Bjoergen. See how East Africa turned distance running into a business of itself. There was money to be won. If only honor, would there be as many men under 2:05 for the marathon?
 
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Brullnux said:
I feel bad for Caster Semenya. She is a genetic freak, but she's a woman. The IAAF hate that she has more testosterone than everyone else, but surely the same logic should apply to marathon runners who have a higher haemocrit or stupidly high haemoglobin levels (assuming they are natural which I know they aren't). Sure it's unfair on the others that she is like this - but it's also unfair on Phelps' competitors that his body is made for swimming, and many others who don't have the same genetic advantage. Genetic advantages are part of the game; sorry, they are the game. Semenya is in my mind at least, one of the more likely athletes to be clean because of her hyperandrogenism.
False equivalence. It's not about 'unfair' genetic advantage, but whether or not she should compete against other women. Man/woman is not a dichotomy, there will always be grey areas. This wouldn't be a problem if everyone competed against each other, but given that no men are allowed, it's a matter of where one should draw the line.

While I think it's fair for her to compete in the same category as other women, I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.
 
I only follow from a (long) distance, so perhaps someone better informed could help out.

From this distance, athletics looks a lot like pro-cycling mid/late 90's. Just rife, uncontrolled, unhinged - and actually, quite interesting simply because it looks so far off the rails.

Does this sound about right to people who have decent knowledge?
 
Dec 13, 2015
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Barkintheeye said:
American Wilson did at least beat two of the males in the 800 metres final. The other two... shall we call it "biological" doping?
'American Wilson' must be clean then.
 

Singer01

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Nov 18, 2013
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Semenya, 26, said she next plans to beat the 800m world record of one minute, 53.28 seconds, set by Jarmila Kratochvilova of the former Czechoslovakia in 1983.
"We need to clear 1:55 first and it will require a lot of hard training," she said.

That is a big jump, taking another 2 seconds will be hellish, though she clearly could have gone faster yesterday if she had paced it better. Probably the stupidest record (along with the 400m) so it will be interesting to see how she goes.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Singer01

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Nov 18, 2013
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sniper said:
Nomad said:
I thought Semenya looked extremely masculine, but Kratochvilova is one muscular women that looks like a male. Here she is setting the WR which has stood now for 34 yrs:
https://youtu.be/lNpzsc8WWvE
Kratochvilova, never tested positive :cool:
Seriously though, that's remarkable. She was 32 at the time.

Semenya currently tied at 16th fastest on the all-time list:
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_800ok.htm
interesting stat.
According to Wikipedia she never broke 53 seconds for the 400m until she was 27, she eventually ran sub 48. Makes Froomes transformation seem positively pedestrian.

Whatever happened to Jelimo, she is very prominent on the all time list.
 
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Netserk said:
Brullnux said:
I feel bad for Caster Semenya. She is a genetic freak, but she's a woman. The IAAF hate that she has more testosterone than everyone else, but surely the same logic should apply to marathon runners who have a higher haemocrit or stupidly high haemoglobin levels (assuming they are natural which I know they aren't). Sure it's unfair on the others that she is like this - but it's also unfair on Phelps' competitors that his body is made for swimming, and many others who don't have the same genetic advantage. Genetic advantages are part of the game; sorry, they are the game. Semenya is in my mind at least, one of the more likely athletes to be clean because of her hyperandrogenism.
False equivalence. It's not about 'unfair' genetic advantage, but whether or not she should compete against other women. Man/woman is not a dichotomy, there will always be grey areas. This wouldn't be a problem if everyone competed against each other, but given that no men are allowed, it's a matter of where one should draw the line.

While I think it's fair for her to compete in the same category as other women, I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.
Just make everyone run in the same competition and do away entirely with the men/women separation. That way all get what they deserve.
 
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