Doping In Athletics

[BullsFan22]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34101774

how hypocritical can the BBC get?

Dafne Schippers:

Because of where the sport is, because of what the sport has seen, the questions began almost immediately.

This is a woman who switched her attention full-time to the sprints in June this year having made her name as a heptathlete. She has knocked four-tenths of a second of her personal best in the space of a year, and become the first European woman to win a world sprint medal in 10 years.

Both Schippers and her coach insist that she is clean. Maybe it is a shame that a performance so astounding produces such a response. Equally, the sport cannot claim to have learned from its past if it does not.

The English...

There was brilliance from the old guard. All three of the home gold medallists from London 2012's Super Saturday, Mo Farah, Greg Rutherford and Jessica Ennis-Hill, came back to win gold once again, in Ennis-Hill's case just 13 months after the birth of her son Reggie and nine months after she began her training again with a 15-minute pedal on a bike.

BBC is getting as bad as mainstream US news, if not worse. It's too bad, because in the past you could count on them on providing decent news and sports coverage, now it's filled with hypocrisy, lazy journalism, heavy bias, tabloid puff pieces, etc. The way things are going, if someone came out and publicly criticized Farah and Froome, they would be executed William Wallace style. We've seen how in the last few Olympics (Summer AND Winter), the host nation seems to have a major spike in performances and final medal counts. It happened in SLC, Beijing, Vancouver, London and Sochi...

 

[heart_attack_man]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34101774

how hypocritical can the BBC get?

Dafne Schippers:

Because of where the sport is, because of what the sport has seen, the questions began almost immediately.

This is a woman who switched her attention full-time to the sprints in June this year having made her name as a heptathlete. She has knocked four-tenths of a second of her personal best in the space of a year, and become the first European woman to win a world sprint medal in 10 years.

Both Schippers and her coach insist that she is clean. Maybe it is a shame that a performance so astounding produces such a response. Equally, the sport cannot claim to have learned from its past if it does not.

The English...

There was brilliance from the old guard. All three of the home gold medallists from London 2012's Super Saturday, Mo Farah, Greg Rutherford and Jessica Ennis-Hill, came back to win gold once again, in Ennis-Hill's case just 13 months after the birth of her son Reggie and nine months after she began her training again with a 15-minute pedal on a bike.

BBC is getting as bad as mainstream US news, if not worse. It's too bad, because in the past you could count on them on providing decent news and sports coverage, now it's filled with hypocrisy, lazy journalism, heavy bias, tabloid puff pieces, etc. The way things are going, if someone came out and publicly criticized Farah and Froome, they would be executed William Wallace style. We've seen how in the last few Olympics (Summer AND Winter), the host nation seems to have a major spike in performances and final medal counts. It happened in SLC, Beijing, Vancouver, London and Sochi...

Even earlier than that - I remember Australia doing well in the '96 Olympics before Sydney, exceptionally well in the Sydney Olympics, and then well at the '04 Olympics (albeit not quite as well...). They peaked, as it were.

I suspect a large part of this is increased investment in sports during this period. More money to build up prior to the host city Olympics, a large amount of ready cash for the actual host city Olympics, and then still reasonable investment for "defending the legacy" at the following Olympics.

Australia has to some extent fallen off the radar quite a bit comparative to how we were back then. I truly believe that investment actually brings a two-fold improvement in that there's a larger pool of people with better equipment to select from. This is not to say that I don't think the money has also been invested in other, more clinic-related ways - au contraire, I believe that's where the majority of it goes - it's just that an increase in quality both facilities/equipment and available funding for some athletes to be able to compete full time rather than part time all goes some way to making for better athletes or a better pool to pick from also.

Of course it's all about the program though!

Not digging up links though to back up the increased investment, as I had 2 hours sleep last night and couldn't be bothered - though I do remember reading something about it quite a few years ago.

 

[Defiets]

Re: Re:

Lottery income is rapidly declining though and heavy cuts have been made in the last few years, mostly in talent development.

The traditional lottery market is declining in many countries. What makes the British National Lottery an exception?

 

[del1962]

This is frustrating as pc login problems mean I am having to use my phone

The bbc piece linked to is just embarrassing I tried to put a comment on it but it failed moderation
Here's the comment

Two frustrating things about this piece

The questioning of the Dutch athlete while no similar questions about the British winners

And secondly the Bolt/Gatlin stuff, we know there have been problems with doping in Jamaica so who knows whether Bolt is clean or not, I hope he is but would not stake my mortgage on it.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

This is frustrating as pc login problems mean I am having to use my phone

The bbc piece linked to is just embarrassing I tried to put a comment on it but it failed moderation
Here's the comment

Two frustrating things about this piece

The questioning of the Dutch athlete while no similar questions about the British winners

And secondly the Bolt/Gatlin stuff, we know there have been problems with doping in Jamaica so who knows whether Bolt is clean or not, I hope he is but would not stake my mortgage on it.

Wow. It's laughable that that failed moderation. All you did was suggest you personally believe there is a possibility of bolt having doped, while allowing for the possibility that he hasn't.

One isn't even allowed to declare what opinion one holds, even if the opinion is neutral.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

This is frustrating as pc login problems mean I am having to use my phone

The bbc piece linked to is just embarrassing I tried to put a comment on it but it failed moderation
Here's the comment

Two frustrating things about this piece

The questioning of the Dutch athlete while no similar questions about the British winners

And secondly the Bolt/Gatlin stuff, we know there have been problems with doping in Jamaica so who knows whether Bolt is clean or not, I hope he is but would not stake my mortgage on it.

Wow. It's laughable that that failed moderation. All you did was suggest you personally believe there is a possibility of bolt having doped, while allowing for the possibility that he hasn't.

One isn't even allowed to declare what opinion one holds, even if the opinion is neutral.

Yeah dropped the rest of the line after "Bolt/Gatlin stuff" and it went through obviously not even slightest suspicion about Bolt allowed even after what the article said about Dutch athlete

 

[Cramps]

Re: Re:

Saw both your allowed comment and the "removed by the moderators" placeholder. This is nuts. Obviously the possibility that Bolt could dope conflicts with the headline, which is literally "1. Bolt vs Gatlin - the greatest miracle of all". puh-leeEEZZZE!

OK, now I've been upvoting the comments that ask for more impartial analysis than Steve Cram seems capable of.

This is frustrating as pc login problems mean I am having to use my phone

The bbc piece linked to is just embarrassing I tried to put a comment on it but it failed moderation
Here's the comment

Two frustrating things about this piece

The questioning of the Dutch athlete while no similar questions about the British winners

And secondly the Bolt/Gatlin stuff, we know there have been problems with doping in Jamaica so who knows whether Bolt is clean or not, I hope he is but would not stake my mortgage on it.

Wow. It's laughable that that failed moderation. All you did was suggest you personally believe there is a possibility of bolt having doped, while allowing for the possibility that he hasn't.

One isn't even allowed to declare what opinion one holds, even if the opinion is neutral.

Yeah dropped the rest of the line after "Bolt/Gatlin stuff" and it went through obviously not even slightest suspicion about Bolt allowed even after what the article said about Dutch athlete

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Saw both your allowed comment and the "removed by the moderators" placeholder. This is nuts. Obviously the possibility that Bolt could dope conflicts with the headline, which is literally "1. Bolt vs Gatlin - the greatest miracle of all". puh-leeEEZZZE!

OK, now I've been upvoting the comments that ask for more impartial analysis than Steve Cram seems capable of.

What 'removed by mods placeholder' are you talking about?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Saw both your allowed comment and the "removed by the moderators" placeholder. This is nuts. Obviously the possibility that Bolt could dope conflicts with the headline, which is literally "1. Bolt vs Gatlin - the greatest miracle of all". puh-leeEEZZZE!

OK, now I've been upvoting the comments that ask for more impartial analysis than Steve Cram seems capable of.

What 'removed by mods placeholder' are you talking about?

On the newspaper website. Settle petal

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Saw both your allowed comment and the "removed by the moderators" placeholder. This is nuts. Obviously the possibility that Bolt could dope conflicts with the headline, which is literally "1. Bolt vs Gatlin - the greatest miracle of all". puh-leeEEZZZE!

OK, now I've been upvoting the comments that ask for more impartial analysis than Steve Cram seems capable of.

What 'removed by mods placeholder' are you talking about?

On the newspaper website. Settle petal

Thanks DW!

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

You are focusing on salaries way too much, IMO. Most Dutch Olympic athletes are better off just getting a job. Schippers is really an exception who will get big sponsor contracts. Most are happy if they break even over their careers (especially the many who don't make it). They don't do it for the money and only a complete lack of money makes them quit for money reasons. The stipend + other benefits are just intended to keep athletes from quitting. I really don't believe it is very luxurious, as the Dutch government is notoriously stingy.

The cost per Dutch medal for Bejing was about 4.4M euro's (link in Dutch). GB paid considerably more at6.6M euro. Jamaica would have spend 4.6 M euro per year, which is 4.6 x 4 = 18.4 M euro for London. 18.4 M euro / 12 medals = 1.5 M euro per medal. A very good ROI.

Focusing on team sports tends to give the worst ROI. For field hockey, you need to support something like 16 players and you can only win 1 medal. In contrast, a single runner/swimmer can win in multiple events. So the focus on sprinters is very lucrative for Jamaica. They had 18 athletes win those 12 medals in London. In contrast, just 2 of the 20 Dutch medals were won by 33 field hockey players.

You also need separate facilities & trainers if you want to excel in different sports. Jamaica can spend all their money on sprint facilities and trainers. Those trainers can focus on athletes that are all on roughly the same level. Schippers' trainer has to spend a lot of time training young athletes and cannot even just focus on the sprint (he coaches heptathlon). Hardly optimal.


Lottery income is rapidly declining though and heavy cuts have been made in the last few years, mostly in talent development.

(Aspiring) pros aren't in it for the government money, regardless of the country they represent. No argument there. It's a meaningful difference, though, when top talents who are from a middle income country with a piss-poor economy don't seem to be receiving those same benefits. Some nuance is needed here. There aren't only upsides to Jamaica; or only downsides to Holland for an (aspiring) pro. It doesn't mean that you buy into a David vs Goliath situation, if you don't believe that.

Generally speaking, though, and if the budget is tight, I think it's better to just focus on the facilities, top-level trainers, programs / development - and use government assistance for specific cases only - taking into account the income of the parents, also. No matter the age of the athlete. If the budget is tight, you have to make better choices, if the idea is to get as many golds as possible. And (I agree) focus much more on individual sports.

So, I don't think I disagree that much, as far as performance is concerned. If a country the size of Holland spends tens of millions of dollars on Olympic sports every year and can't afford a good trainer for one of the relatively few gold medal contenders in an individual sport, then they're doing something wrong, IMO.

I will say that it borders on the ludicrous to suggest that a woman who apparently is already able to run 10.81 and 20.63 clean, is held back by her shitty trainer.

 

[Cramps]

Re: Re:

Saw both your allowed comment and the "removed by the moderators" placeholder. This is nuts. Obviously the possibility that Bolt could dope conflicts with the headline, which is literally "1. Bolt vs Gatlin - the greatest miracle of all". puh-leeEEZZZE!

OK, now I've been upvoting the comments that ask for more impartial analysis than Steve Cram seems capable of.

What 'removed by mods placeholder' are you talking about?

On the comments for the BBC article referenced in the original quoting: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34101774

 

[The Frog]

Thanks for your answer but I hoped for something more specific (even if it was: "Arron clean?! You must be really ignorant/stupid/moronic/blindly patriotic to believe that" ). I was curious to know how these athletes (Perec, Arron, Hurtis, Lemaitre) where perceived in other countries, but I do realize that they aren't really famous outside french borders.

Of the hyped white sprinters Lemaitre is the most believable to me. Of course they (sprinters) all dope at that level, but he wasn't crazy fast or anything. His 9.92 was wind-legal, although barely. He also peaked early at age 20 or thereabouts. His appearance didn't change all that much when he got older, either.

Yeah, he seems the most believable of my four "french myths" (whith Hurtis perhaps).
I read an article in a trustworthy magazine ("Sport et Vie") about a test where they measure the power of Lemaitre and some amateur athletes (student who tried to become P.E. teachers) and he was in the middle of the pack.

 

[Aapjes]

Re: Re:

Generally speaking, though, and if the budget is tight, I think it's better to just focus on the facilities, top-level trainers, programs / development - and use government assistance for specific cases only - taking into account the income of the parents, also. No matter the age of the athlete. If the budget is tight, you have to make better choices, if the idea is to get as many golds as possible. And (I agree) focus much more on individual sports.

You still have to work within the constraints of what sports are popular and possible genetic factors. Holland didn't choose to go for field hockey medals because it was the best way to get Olympic medals, they go for Olympic medals in field hockey because the sport is popular.

Jamaica happens to have all the factors in their favor to do very well in sprinting, although the lack of doping testing was a major factor too of course. Holland can't just copy that (even if they wanted to).

So, I don't think I disagree that much, as far as performance is concerned. If a country the size of Holland spends tens of millions of dollars on Olympic sports every year and can't afford a good trainer for one of the relatively few gold medal contenders in an individual sport, then they're doing something wrong, IMO.

She only became a gold medal contender fairly recently though. Getting to that point was really where a good trainer is most needed and at that point, she was just a good prospect. There are many good prospects around, most never make it.

I really think that you are suffering from 20/20 hindsight where looking back, it is obvious to spend big bucks on her development. But at the time, she was just one talent of many, in one sport of many. This particular sport hasn't given Holland that many medals, so it's not a priority sport. Holland has other priority sports, like swimming. Jamaica has sprinting as their priority sport.

I think you fail to make that distinction. In general it is much better to be a Dutch athlete in most sports, since the overall level of facilities is better. But when it comes to sprinting, it's probably better to be Jamaican, because Jamaica has a high level in that 1 sport.

I will say that it borders on the ludicrous to suggest that a woman who apparently is already able to run 10.81 and 20.63 clean, is held back by her shitty trainer.

Supposedly, it is very hard to get the sprint technique right and proper technique, rather than raw power, is a major factor for her exceptional times. I do think that a good trainer can be very important to get the technique right. If you have raw power and use it ineffectively, you won't do well.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Abdujaparov disagrees.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

In my experience, gifted athletes are gifted in terms of coordination as well as strength and recovery.

 

[armchairclimber]

Re:

In my experience, gifted athletes are gifted in terms of coordination as well as strength and recovery.

And you don't become a world class heptathlete unless all those attributes apply to you.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Saw both your allowed comment and the "removed by the moderators" placeholder. This is nuts. Obviously the possibility that Bolt could dope conflicts with the headline, which is literally "1. Bolt vs Gatlin - the greatest miracle of all". puh-leeEEZZZE!

OK, now I've been upvoting the comments that ask for more impartial analysis than Steve Cram seems capable of.

Cram's hyberbole is painful for me, mainly because I like Cram, always have. I remember first seeing him in a youth road race at Berwick in the 1970s, I was running in the age group lower than him. I was gutted when he got beat by Coe in 1984 Olympics, used to watch his races in the 80s and I have a friend who finished top 100 in the great north run in the 80s, has met both him and Brendon Foster and he thinks Cram is a nice chap while he doesn't think much of Foster.

 

[Aapjes]

Re:

In my experience, gifted athletes are gifted in terms of coordination as well as strength and recovery.

They still need to be taught proper technique.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

She has always had big acne problems. Two years ago, five years ago.

Five years ago is fine.
Marianne Vos as well. Severe acne, starting in teenie years, which is fine.
Problem is that acne usually gets less after the teenie years. Not in Vos' and Schippers' case.
Or C. Ronaldo's case.
Topathletes with mid-twenties acne, imo that's suspicious.

In the case of Schippers in my opinion it's a solid guess to say steroids are causing the acne, which is visible also on her back, I heard.

With regards to the acne on her back, I watched one of her post-race interviews. She was carrying a towel over both of her shoulders and back. It looked so neatly arranged it made me wonder if she did it to cover up the acne on her shoulders/back. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ce7EzWVD20

 

[armchairclimber]

Not defendin Schippers here but I know someone very close to me who still has acne in her 40s...and it was certainly bad (on her back too) in her 20s. Her son also has it quite severely aged only 12. I doubt that either is on steroids.

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

Saw both your allowed comment and the "removed by the moderators" placeholder. This is nuts. Obviously the possibility that Bolt could dope conflicts with the headline, which is literally "1. Bolt vs Gatlin - the greatest miracle of all". puh-leeEEZZZE!

OK, now I've been upvoting the comments that ask for more impartial analysis than Steve Cram seems capable of.

Cram's hyberbole is painful for me, mainly because I like Cram, always have. I remember first seeing him in a youth road race at Berwick in the 1970s, I was running in the age group lower than him. I was gutted when he got beat by Coe in 1984 Olympics, used to watch his races in the 80s and I have a friend who finished top 100 in the great north run in the 80s, has met both him and Brendon Foster and he thinks Cram is a nice chap while he doesn't think much of Foster.

I too like Cram, for similar reasons. I did have to turn him off this year though...just too painful to listen to. However, I don't think he is some evil PR merchant with a brief to sell the "clean bolt dirty Gatlin" narrative, nor do I think he has a similar brief with regards to Farah. He just doesn't have a clinic mind-set. I just don't think he has seen enough to vocally "dis-believe". He may not even be sceptical at all. I don't think that's hypocrisy...I just think it's genuinely his position.

He was vocal about Makhloufi... and clinic regulars chide him for it. It obviously has nowt to do with Makhloufi's north African origin. All he said was something along the lines of "I don't know what I'm seeing here". Fair enough, I would have thought.

 

[SeriousSam]

I agree that having acne in your mid 20s when you had it as a teenager pales in comparison to running 21.6 as far as evidence of PED use is concerned. Quite a lot of mid 20s guys and girls have acne.

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

I too like Cram, for similar reasons. I did have to turn him off this year though...just too painful to listen to. However, I don't think he is some evil PR merchant with a brief to sell the "clean bolt dirty Gatlin" narrative, nor do I think he has a similar brief with regards to Farah. He just doesn't have a clinic mind-set. I just don't think he has seen enough to vocally "dis-believe". He may not even be sceptical at all. I don't think that's hypocrisy...I just think it's genuinely his position.

He was vocal about Makhloufi... and clinic regulars chide him for it. It obviously has nowt to do with Makhloufi's north African origin. All he said was something along the lines of "I don't know what I'm seeing here". Fair enough, I would have thought.

Like Walsh, Cram is a complete hypocrite.

On Makhloufi's 2012 win (https://twitter.com/crunchsports/status/232935368775839745):

he's won it in a manner many will find surprising

A clear insinuation that Cram believes Makhloufi is a doper.


Cram on Rashid Ramzi in 2009 (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/may/05/rashid-ramzi-drugs-athletics-steve-cram):

He almost embarrassed his competitors with his ease of victory. New-found ability in your mid-20s has the odour of North Shields fish quay on a warm day.

Yet Bolt is supposedly the saviour of athletics despite being the 100m and 200m record holder, having won every World and Olympic final he's competed in since 2008.

 

[SeriousSam]

What about new-found ability in your late twenties, being more dominant than Ramzi ever was, missed tests and ties to dodgy NOP. Doesn't have the odour of North Shields fish quay on a warm day, eh?