Doping in other sports?

[Cookster15]

Collin Chartier Banned 3 Years for EPO - Slowtwitch News

The U.S. based athlete did not challenge the results of an out of competition test.

www.slowtwitch.com

Surprised this hasn't been discussed yet.

Huge name in the tri world popped for EPO.

As others mentioned, the most noble thing about this story is that Chartier fessed up straight away. Kind of refreshing when we are used to our collective intelligence being insulted by the excuses.

But really I think Chartier and a few others in that sport got caught because Triathlon isn't as professional as professional cycling. Budgets, teams, doctors etc.

Aragon raises an interesting point if EPO/bood doping is as effective in ironman. I think that is the body energy systems. An ironman is typically ridden / won in zone 2 . Shorter distance / middle distance running events are zone 3 or 4 - VO2 max. I also don't think thicker blood is a good thing when you are risking extreme dehydration - especially at Hawaii?

 

[Sciatic]

Aragon, You’re not really going to point out competition benefits without also mentioning training benefits.
And if you’re going to reference Soviet/ East German sports science from the ‘70s you should at least try to cite your sources, since many of us in this subforum have read and discussed a lot of the literature previously.
So for instance, re: your mention of the 800 and 1500– are you sure they tested blood doping as a separate variable from anabolics, which they were getting huge performance and training boosts from for middle distance races?

 

[Sciatic]

Indeed looks like this is the case.

One shouldn't still conclude that every successful triathlete is doping. The benefit from EPO is likely significant in the shorter sprint/olympic distances, but not necessarily that much so in the Ironman distances, when the competition takes almost 8 hours. The effort is well below lactate threshold, and the oxygen supply and demand are quite adequately matched in the course of the race. Likely there is some benefit from higher thresholds, higher body pH level and better thermoregulation, when more blood can be diverted towards dissipating heat.

When Soviet scientists researched blood doping on efforts of different duration in the 1970s, they observed that 800m and 1500m runners improved their performance by ~3 % but 10000m runners only by ~1 %. It is still noteworthy that when Conconi told Donati about the benefits of transfusions in 1981-1982, he made no mention of diminishing returns with longer distances.

And as for “diminishing returns” that makes sense. But you understand that pros would consider ANY returns as beneficial and worth risking. if athletes in one type of shorter distance race get a 10% boost (I’m just using this figure as an example) and a triathlete only gets a 1% boost by comparison, that 1% is still huge an the top level of the sport.

Do you really think having a much higher hemocrit is of no benefit in ultra-endurance races?This is not something I’ve seen written about one way or the other, but I would be pretty surprised if the answer is no.

 

[Cookster15]

Indeed looks like this is the case.

One shouldn't still conclude that every successful triathlete is doping. The benefit from EPO is likely significant in the shorter sprint/olympic distances, but not necessarily that much so in the Ironman distances, when the competition takes almost 8 hours. The effort is well below lactate threshold, and the oxygen supply and demand are quite adequately matched in the course of the race. Likely there is some benefit from higher thresholds, higher body pH level and better thermoregulation, when more blood can be diverted towards dissipating heat.

When Soviet scientists researched blood doping on efforts of different duration in the 1970s, they observed that 800m and 1500m runners improved their performance by ~3 % but 10000m runners only by ~1 %. It is still noteworthy that when Conconi told Donati about the benefits of transfusions in 1981-1982, he made no mention of diminishing returns with longer distances.

Interesting the Soviet info which is counter intuitive. EPO raises VO2 max which in turn raises lactate threshold (FTP). So I think it would benefit ironman? But in ironman, particularly at races like Hawaii, dehydration is a big risk, so I think that would discourage EPO use which thickens the blood?

 

[Aragon]

Aragon, You’re not really going to point out competition benefits without also mentioning training benefits.
And if you’re going to reference Soviet/ East German sports science from the ‘70s you should at least try to cite your sources, since many of us in this subforum have read and discussed a lot of the literature previously.
So for instance, re: your mention of the 800 and 1500– are you sure they tested blood doping as a separate variable from anabolics, which they were getting huge performance and training boosts from for middle distance races?

I am referencing to the N.I. Volkov dissertation reviewed by e.g. Ukrainian scholar Mikhail I. Kalinski in his 2002 paper. The experiment was scientific and focused only on the effect of transfusions on performance even when there was other steroid research in the Soviet Union. E.g. the Finnish anti-doping activist Sergei Iljukov referenced to the paper in a few year old interview mentioning the higher boost in shorter distances:

Venäjän naiset romahtivat rajusti – tuore dopingtutkimus paljastaa karut sekunnit kestävyysjuoksusta: ”Mitään muuta selitystä ei löydetty”

Venäjän naiskestävyysjuoksijoiden taso on laskenut dramaattisesti, kun veridopingtaistelussa on löydetty uusia keinoja. Tuore tutkimus paljastaa sekunnilleen, mitä on tapahtunut.

www.iltalehti.fi

(readable via GoogleTranslate)

Relating to your question "Do you really think having a much higher hemocrit is of no benefit in ultra-endurance races?", the answer is "no", as I wrote in the original post. But because oxygen supply is already quite adequate without blood doping (with heart rates of 140-150ish), more abundance of oxygen and even higher LT is likely of lesser benefit vs. shorter distances. Not claiming that there isn't almost certainly a higher sustaineable power.

It is also noteworthy that the efforts of longest duration where EPO / blood doping have been tested in the scientific experiments have been less than 60 min in duration (most blood doping tests last like 8-15 min), therefore there is little direct scientific evidence even to prove there is a boost in 450-480 min Ironman triathlons.

If EPO / blood doping benefits training effect and lead to a better training adaptation (not just contributing to the capacity to be faster during training) is more anecdotal than proven. There are many reviews on blood doping, but this aspect is barely mentioned in them even in speculation.

 

[Nick2413]

As others mentioned, the most noble thing about this story is that Chartier fessed up straight away. Kind of refreshing when we are used to our collective intelligence being insulted by the excuses.

But really I think Chartier and a few others in that sport got caught because Triathlon isn't as professional as professional cycling. Budgets, teams, doctors etc.

Aragon raises an interesting point if EPO/bood doping is as effective in ironman. I think that is the body energy systems. An ironman is typically ridden / won in zone 2 . Shorter distance / middle distance running events are zone 3 or 4 - VO2 max. I also don't think thicker blood is a good thing when you are risking extreme dehydration - especially at Hawaii?

He “fessed up” while at the same time denying ever using it until the last 3 months, when he’s done nothing. It’s the smart move to keep his winnings from last year, but not close to believable. Half truths are arguably worse than full lies imo.

 

[Sciatic]

Thanks for the thorough response, and I look forward to checking out the article.

I’m guessing they’re still more to learn about EPO and endurance since I think there’s still more to learn about Erythropoiesis as separate performance enhancer than blood transfusions. Unlike transfusions, which just add red blood cells, EPO stimulates erythropoiesis in bone marrow, which ion turn produces more andhealthier red blood cells that wont die as quickly. But I’ll have to wait and see.

 

[Nick2413]

I am referencing to the N.I. Volkov dissertation reviewed by e.g. Ukrainian scholar Mikhail I. Kalinski in his 2002 paper. The experiment was scientific and focused only on the effect of transfusions on performance even when there was other steroid research in the Soviet Union. E.g. the Finnish anti-doping activist Sergei Iljukov referenced to the paper in a few year old interview mentioning the higher boost in shorter distances:

Venäjän naiset romahtivat rajusti – tuore dopingtutkimus paljastaa karut sekunnit kestävyysjuoksusta: ”Mitään muuta selitystä ei löydetty”

Venäjän naiskestävyysjuoksijoiden taso on laskenut dramaattisesti, kun veridopingtaistelussa on löydetty uusia keinoja. Tuore tutkimus paljastaa sekunnilleen, mitä on tapahtunut.

www.iltalehti.fi

(readable via GoogleTranslate)

Relating to your question "Do you really think having a much higher hemocrit is of no benefit in ultra-endurance races?", the answer is "no", as I wrote in the original post. But because oxygen supply is already quite adequate without blood doping (with heart rates of 140-150ish), more abundance of oxygen and even higher LT is likely of lesser benefit vs. shorter distances. Not claiming that there isn't almost certainly a higher sustaineable power.

It is also noteworthy that the efforts of longest duration where EPO / blood doping have been tested in the scientific experiments have been less than 60 min in duration (most blood doping tests last like 8-15 min), therefore there is little direct scientific evidence even to prove there is a boost in 450-480 min Ironman triathlons.

If EPO / blood doping benefits training effect and lead to a better training adaptation (not just contributing to the capacity to be faster during training) is more anecdotal than proven. There are many reviews on blood doping, but this aspect is barely mentioned in them even in speculation.

Isn’t there at least some anecdotal evidence of marathoners who have been busted for EPO over the years? 2+ hour events where athletes could quite clearly see a good chunk of time difference before and after? I get that VO2Max isn’t directly important in IM but I don’t buy for a second that the benefit of EPO is only mild or tertiary. If I could be doing my bike splits at 135HR instead of 150 I can’t imagine I’d only be 1% faster. It’s worth noting the top triathletes are running 1:07 halfs and 2:3x fulls during races, and those intensities are close to threshold even for them.

 

[Aragon]

Isn’t there at least some anecdotal evidence of marathoners who have been busted for EPO over the years? 2+ hour events where athletes could quite clearly see a good chunk of time difference before and after? I get that VO2Max isn’t directly important in IM but I don’t buy for a second that the benefit of EPO is only mild or tertiary. If I could be doing my bike splits at 135HR instead of 150 I can’t imagine I’d only be 1% faster. It’s worth noting the top triathletes are running 1:07 halfs and 2:3x fulls during races, and those intensities are close to threshold even for them.

I wouldn't estimate any 5-10 % benefit in any endurance discipline / distance from the fact of athletes getting caught, because even a 1-2 % potential (not realized) boost would be enough incentives for many to dope. I didn't make much claims about marathon running or about the shorter triathlon distances closer to lactate threshold (and Vo2Max) in speed, but the general principle holds that the benefit is likely less (in % terms) in marathon than in e.g. 3000m race.

Yes, half and full IM are by a magnitude below LT, but if you look at these examples, there is a noticeable difference in oxygen demand between these two events:

- A 70 kg runner with an efficiency of 200 ml/kg/km would use every minute 4.4 l/min of (63 ml/kg) in a 1:07 half marathon.

- The oxygen consumption of this runner falls to 3.8 l/min (54 ml/kg) in a 2:35 marathon.

Perhaps LT increases significantly with blood doping, and an athlete can run, swim and cycle closer to it thus increasing his speed (even when oxygen supply doesn't appear to be a huge problem in IM distances)? Or the more efficient oxygen supply allows the athlete to use more cardiac output to other (and secondary) tasks, which might be of benefit?

 

[Rico044]

I wouldn't estimate any 5-10 % benefit in any endurance discipline / distance from the fact of athletes getting caught, because even a 1-2 % potential (not realized) boost would be enough incentives for many to dope. I didn't make much claims about marathon running or about the shorter triathlon distances closer to lactate threshold (and Vo2Max) in speed, but the general principle holds that the benefit is likely less (in % terms) in marathon than in e.g. 3000m race.

Yes, half and full IM are by a magnitude below LT, but if you look at these examples, there is a noticeable difference in oxygen demand between these two events:

- A 70 kg runner with an efficiency of 200 ml/kg/km would use every minute 4.4 l/min of (63 ml/kg) in a 1:07 half marathon.

- The oxygen consumption of this runner falls to 3.8 l/min (54 ml/kg) in a 2:35 marathon.

Perhaps LT increases significantly with blood doping, and an athlete can run, swim and cycle closer to it thus increasing his speed (even when oxygen supply doesn't appear to be a huge problem in IM distances)? Or the more efficient oxygen supply allows the athlete to use more cardiac output to other (and secondary) tasks, which might be of benefit?

I am nowhere near as well versed as you all when it comes to the science of how much EPO would help long course tri events; however, I have to imagine it would be a big benefit. The best tri guys right now are spending a lot of time at altitude. That tells me a lot of coaches in that field believe there is some benefit to more RBCs.

 

[Aragon]

I am nowhere near as well versed as you all when it comes to the science of how much EPO would help long course tri events; however, I have to imagine it would be a big benefit. The best tri guys right now are spending a lot of time at altitude. That tells me a lot of coaches in that field believe there is some benefit to more RBCs.

There is (maybe) a tiny contradiction there, but to think about it, some benefit can be a big benefit depending on the context.

Only modest 1 % improvement in performance would be like 5 minutes in time and some 3-5 positions in most of the recent Kona Ironman World Championships. Improving from like 7th to 2nd wouldn't be just a statistical "feels good" improvement but also a qualitative difference in price money, fame, fortune and discounted future income.

There is some debate about the magnitude and mechanism (Chris Gore & Mike Ashenden have measured better cycling efficiency) how altitude training boosts performance, but the predicted magnitude is in the ~0-3 % ballpark making it a worthwhile training regime.

I am afraid there never will be an answer on how much EPO or transfusions would boost IM performance, it is more gut feeling than science for many both in the "low" or "high" boost camps.

 

[Rob5091]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rd-holder-rhonex-kipruto-suspended-for-doping
The world 10km record holder, Rhonex Kipruto, has been suspended for suspected doping offences in yet another serious blow to the reputation of Kenyan athletics.

The 23-year-old, who also won a world championship bronze medal in 2019 as a teenager, was charged by the Athletics Integrity Unit with “use of a prohibited substance or method” after inconsistencies were found in his biological passport between July 2018 and March 2022. If found guilty he faces a four-year ban.

Kipruto, who set his 10km world record by running 26 mins 24 seconds in Valencia in 2020, has denied any wrongdoing and said he was ready to undergo a longitudinal study on his blood markers under 24-7 supervision. “I don’t cheat or dope! The truth is on my side,” he added. “This is all I can say.”

 

[Nick2413]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rd-holder-rhonex-kipruto-suspended-for-doping
The world 10km record holder, Rhonex Kipruto, has been suspended for suspected doping offences in yet another serious blow to the reputation of Kenyan athletics.

The 23-year-old, who also won a world championship bronze medal in 2019 as a teenager, was charged by the Athletics Integrity Unit with “use of a prohibited substance or method” after inconsistencies were found in his biological passport between July 2018 and March 2022. If found guilty he faces a four-year ban.

Kipruto, who set his 10km world record by running 26 mins 24 seconds in Valencia in 2020, has denied any wrongdoing and said he was ready to undergo a longitudinal study on his blood markers under 24-7 supervision. “I don’t cheat or dope! The truth is on my side,” he added. “This is all I can say.”

The passport seems to be one of those things that just gets held up in court as soon as there is enough money behind the athlete. I doubt this will go anywhere.

 

[limkangyoung]

Motor doping? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...on-runner-47-disqualified-race-using-CAR.html
Rivals call for record-breaking British ultra-marathon runner, 47, to be kicked out of the sport after she was 'DRIVEN at 35mph for part of a 50-mile race because she felt sick'

Lol...
I always wondered "are there people who overcome marathons thanks to transport?". But it always seemed like a joke to me, and there's this...

 

[King Boonen]

Lol...
I always wondered "are there people who overcome marathons thanks to transport?". But it always seemed like a joke to me, and there's this...

over 100 years earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Lorz

 

[Tim Cahill]

Dillian Whyte popped on an AAF

Dillian Whyte out of Anthony Joshua fight after adverse test

Dillian Whyte returns "an adverse finding" from a doping test, causing his heavyweight rematch against Anthony Joshua to be cancelled.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eddie Hearn's guys need to get themselves a more intelligent doctor, Whyte's a fridge anyway, should've got himself on whatever good s*it Joshua is taking.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Dillian Whyte popped on an AAF

Dillian Whyte out of Anthony Joshua fight after adverse test

Dillian Whyte returns "an adverse finding" from a doping test, causing his heavyweight rematch against Anthony Joshua to be cancelled.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eddie Hearn's guys need to get themselves a more intelligent doctor, Whyte's a fridge anyway, should've got himself on whatever good s*it Joshua is taking.

The guy who was hiding from UKADA in Portugal during the pandemic only to show up to fights in the best shape of his life tests positive, not exactly a huge surprise.

 

[BullsFan22]

Caroline Wozniacki. 3 years away from the sport, supposedly (mostly) due to a chronic injury or the feet she would have long term health issues due to injury has returned. Granted it was the easiest 1st round opponent she could wish for.

 

[Rob5091]

Now we know why she won all the time - even after a ban at 15 years old.
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1140636/tatiana-kashirina-loses-titles-doping
Tatiana Kashirina’s "biggest ever" lifts by a woman weightlifter have been scrubbed from the record books by a court ruling that disqualifies all her results in a four-year period.

The Russian super-heavyweight, who has been banned for eight years for a doping offence, loses three world titles, three European titles and a number of other victories achieved between 2013 and 2017.

Kashirina, winner of every international competition she entered from October 2012 to November 2018, made the all-time biggest lifts at the 2014 International Weightlifting Federation (IWF) World Championships in Almaty in Kazakhstan - a snatch of 155 kilograms, a clean and jerk of 193kg and a total of 348kg.
...
CAS ruled on the case after appeals were lodged by the Russian Anti-Doping Agency (RUSADA) and the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) against a tribunal’s decision to clear Kashirina of any wrongdoing.

Kashirina was suspended for two years after testing positive in 2006, when she was 15.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Apparently Paul Pogba have tested positive for testosterone...

 

[steffr222]

Apparently Paul Pogba have tested positive for testosterone...

Well this could become a massive case

Paul Pogba positivo al testosterone dopo Udinese-Juventus del 20 agosto: rischia 4 anni di squalifica

Le analisi effettuate durante la prima gara di questa stagione: Udinese-Juventus del 20 agosto

trib.al

 

[Mayomaniac]

Apparently Paul Pogba have tested positive for testosterone...

Wait, they don't make a footballer positive dissapear? Must be because of Juventus being part of the Superleague Thing or how it was called...

 

[Aimar16]

Wait, they don't make a footballer positive dissapear? Must be because of Juventus being part of the Superleague Thing or how it was called...

He is constantly injured and barely played 100 minutes last season while being one of the highest earning players at Juventus. Maybe this is a chance for them to get rid of that clown easily...

Btw, Juventus has already left the Super League

 

[Barkintheeye]

Casts a revealing and bad light on an upheld and pampered sport. It should be clear to all that soccer is one of the more (if not the most) doping tainted sports of all. Disgusting.

 

[Rob5091]

He is constantly injured and barely played 100 minutes last season while being one of the highest earning players at Juventus. Maybe this is a chance for them to get rid of that clown easily...

Btw, Juventus has already left the Super League

Wonder if he has an anti-doping clause in his contract?