Doping in other sports?

[Aimar16]

Wait what? How...

Where there is a will there is a way, but some just have to go the extra mile and put in that extra effort, I guess.

Chess sex toy cheating scandal explained: World No. 1 Magnus Carlsen, Hans Niemann in wild sports controversy

It's one of the most bizarre sports scandals in recent memory

www.cbssports.com

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Chess sex toy cheating scandal explained: World No. 1 Magnus Carlsen, Hans Niemann in wild sports controversy

It's one of the most bizarre sports scandals in recent memory

www.cbssports.com

To be honest TLDR the article, however, basically some redditor came up with the sex toy hypothesis and everyone just ran with it?

Apologies, I suppose I should read on...

 

[Aimar16]

To be honest TLDR the article, however, basically some redditor came up with the sex toy hypothesis and everyone just ran with it?

Apologies, I suppose I should read on...

The claim of cheating comes from other chess players, this player has cheated before and was banned from chess.com... the vibrating anal bead would be a logical explanation for the live game cheating

 

[Nick2413]

To be honest TLDR the article, however, basically some redditor came up with the sex toy hypothesis and everyone just ran with it?

Apologies, I suppose I should read on...

I’ve been following this closely. It’s a very interesting scandal and I wondered if it would pop up on the clinic at some point.

There are all sorts of different ways to cheat in chess, so the sex toy theory (or something similar in concept) is certainly a possibility, especially with today’s technology. There is also the possibility of leaked prep, which Carlsen pointed out Niemann’s coach has been caught cheating as recently as 2020 and could be involved.

Carlsen likely has theories but is too worried about lawsuits to speak directly on what he thinks is happening.

Now there is an official investigation underway by the chess governing body so hopefully more information will make its way into the public domain.

 

[hrotha]

It's half amusing half infuriating to see non-chess media focusing on the sex toy angle (which came out of nowhere in Eric Hansen's Twitch chat and only got any traction because it's funny due to weird internalized and frankly homophobic attitudes towards sex).

 

[Sciatic]

It's half amusing half infuriating to see non-chess media focusing on the sex toy angle (which came out of nowhere in Eric Hansen's Twitch chat and only got any traction because it's funny due to weird internalized and frankly homophobic attitudes towards sex).

How low of them only to be focused on the not-so-much-about chess sex-toy angle, whereas here we only interested in the non-so-much-about chess doping angle.

 

[Aimar16]

an investigation into Niemann’s play—conducted by Chess.com, an online platform where many top players compete—has found the scope of his cheating to be far wider and longer-lasting than he publicly admitted.

The report, reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, alleges that Niemann likely received illegal assistance in more than 100 online games, as recently as 2020. Those matches included contests in which prize money was on the line. The site uses a variety of cheating-detection tools, including analytics that compare moves to those recommended by chess engines, which are capable of beating even the greatest human players every time.

Chess Investigation Finds That U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

An internal report reviewed by The Wall Street Journal alleges a previously unknown pattern of likely widespread cheating by Hans Moke Niemann, the player whose September victory over Magnus Carlsen has rocked the chess world.

www.wsj.com

 

[hrotha]

How low of them only to be focused on the not-so-much-about chess sex-toy angle, whereas here we only interested in the non-so-much-about chess doping angle.

To be fair, this is a doping subforum in a cycling forum. If the sex toy discussion was confined to Dildonews dot com, I wouldn't have a problem with it

 

[fmk_RoI]

Not a good day for UKAD: rival agency calls a positive, their tests say negative. I'd hate to see them with a Where's Wally Book - they'd be totally stumped.

“We have been made aware that a random anti-doping test for Conor Benn conducted by the Voluntary Anti-Doping Association returned an adverse analytical finding for trace amounts of a fertility drug.

“The B sample has yet to be tested, meaning that no rule violation has been confirmed. Indeed, Mr Benn has not been charged with any rule violation, he is not suspended, and he remains free to fight. Mr Benn has since passed a doping control test conducted by the UK Anti-Doping Agency [Ukad], the anti-doping authority to which the British Board of Boxing Control has delegated its doping control testing for the bout. Mr Benn has passed all doping control tests conducted by Ukad.

link

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's half amusing half infuriating to see non-chess media focusing on the sex toy angle (which came out of nowhere in Eric Hansen's Twitch chat and only got any traction because it's funny due to weird internalized and frankly homophobic attitudes towards sex).

It isn't helped by the fact nobody in the chess media dares call out Magnus for being a huge drama queen, though.

 

[Nick2413]

It isn't helped by the fact nobody in the chess media dares call out Magnus for being a huge drama queen, though.

Maybe, but now the investigations have found that Niemann likely cheated in around 100 games, and other GMs have come out saying they have been equally suspicious and weary of playing him. Magnus is speaking for a lot of other top players by doing this, even though he could’ve done it more quietly.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Maybe, but now the investigations have found that Niemann likely cheated in around 100 games, and other GMs have come out saying they have been equally suspicious and weary of playing him. Magnus is speaking for a lot of other top players by doing this, even though he could’ve done it more quietly.

Sure, but there are far more diplomatic ways to do it, too, and given the status and gravitas that Carlsen has as a name and a voice in the chess community, to just go "take ball go home" and then resign by switching the webcam off and tantruming out of the room, rather than actually say anything about what he wasn't happy with (leaving us with that Mourinho interview post) while speculation ran wild?

Even if he may have been right about Hans, and certainly there had been plenty questioning him before all this kicked off anyway given his history and rapid development, if you didn't know who either of them were and were just given their ages, you'd have been forgiven for thinking Magnus was the teenager and Niemann the 30-something from their behaviour after the game that sparked it.

 

[Nick2413]

Sure, but there are far more diplomatic ways to do it, too, and given the status and gravitas that Carlsen has as a name and a voice in the chess community, to just go "take ball go home" and then resign by switching the webcam off and tantruming out of the room, rather than actually say anything about what he wasn't happy with (leaving us with that Mourinho interview post) while speculation ran wild?

Even if he may have been right about Hans, and certainly there had been plenty questioning him before all this kicked off anyway given his history and rapid development, if you didn't know who either of them were and were just given their ages, you'd have been forgiven for thinking Magnus was the teenager and Niemann the 30-something from their behaviour after the game that sparked it.

Possibly true. I would say that Carlsen acted the way he did throughout this with the specific intention of drawing attention to it and also avoiding legal action, not because of being a prima donna. That doesn’t necessarily mean it was right, or wasn’t right, but he has shown he can lose to younger and weaker players with grace. I guess my main point is that I think this was something he thought a great deal about and came to the conclusion that this is how to deal with it, whether we as bystanders agree or not.

 

[Netserk]

Sure, but there are far more diplomatic ways to do it, too, and given the status and gravitas that Carlsen has as a name and a voice in the chess community, to just go "take ball go home" and then resign by switching the webcam off and tantruming out of the room, rather than actually say anything about what he wasn't happy with (leaving us with that Mourinho interview post) while speculation ran wild?

Seems to me that he was right and threw his weight around (in the right direction) as much as he could given his legal constraints. Even if you don't like the aesthetics of his antics, it may very well have got the good job done. Punish a cheater and tightening anti-cheating measures. One can begrudge that it needs the initiative of a "privileged" player, but when institutions fail, wishing them not to is not a fix.

 

[Netserk]

When you hold sway, use it for good.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Possibly true. I would say that Carlsen acted the way he did throughout this with the specific intention of drawing attention to it and also avoiding legal action, not because of being a prima donna. That doesn’t necessarily mean it was right, or wasn’t right, but he has shown he can lose to younger and weaker players with grace. I guess my main point is that I think this was something he thought a great deal about and came to the conclusion that this is how to deal with it, whether we as bystanders agree or not.

He could have, you know, said that, though. He could have said the basic gist of the Jose Mourinho clip himself rather than just meme-post the video link. He could have said "I have plenty of opinions on the Hans situation, but I can't go into them right now while the situation is ongoing" rather than everybody running around like headless chickens speculating while Magnus went into hiding. He could have forfeited the subsequent match after seeing the draw, or announced ahead of time he would not contest games with Niemann at least until further notice, rather than sitting down for the game and then throwing the stupidly childish "well I'm turning the camera off and leaving!" Eric Cartman-style move 2 resignation stunt.

I mean, Magnus the chess player is still the best of the best, we know that, but regardless of whether he is right or not I find it difficult to come out of this without thinking a whole lot less of Magnus the person.

 

[Netserk]

He could have, you know, said that, though. He could have said the basic gist of the Jose Mourinho clip himself rather than just meme-post the video link. He could have said "I have plenty of opinions on the Hans situation, but I can't go into them right now while the situation is ongoing" rather than everybody running around like headless chickens speculating while Magnus went into hiding. He could have forfeited the subsequent match after seeing the draw, or announced ahead of time he would not contest games with Niemann at least until further notice, rather than sitting down for the game and then throwing the stupidly childish "well I'm turning the camera off and leaving!" Eric Cartman-style move 2 resignation stunt.

I mean, Magnus the chess player is still the best of the best, we know that, but regardless of whether he is right or not I find it difficult to come out of this without thinking a whole lot less of Magnus the person.

If you don't have faith in the institutions of the game, namely FIDE, but also the organisers, you need outside pressure, media attention. Of course, you can only escalate to de-escalate if you escalation dominate. It's not a pretty bet, but we'll see if it works.

Do you think a more graceful conduct would result in the same media attention?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If you don't have faith in the institutions of the game, namely FIDE, but also the organisers, you need outside pressure, media attention. Of course, you can only escalate to de-escalate if you escalation dominate. It's not a pretty bet, but we'll see if it works.

Do you think a more graceful conduct would result in the same media attention?

Wasn't the game he resigned on move 2 in part of his own tournament?

 

[Netserk]

Wasn't the game he resigned on move 2 in part of his own tournament?

I don't think so. Are you thinking of the Magnus Carlsen Invitational? And whether or not the Julius Baer Generation Cup is owned by Carlsen, how does that matter? He would still create most media attention by quitting the way he did.

In any case, I think the target was not any specific organiser, but tournament organisers at large. That media scrutiny would incentivise them to tighten anti-cheating measures.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think so. Are you thinking of the Magnus Carlsen Invitational? And whether or not the Julius Baer Generation Cup is owned by Carlsen, how does that matter? He would still create most media attention by quitting the way he did.

In any case, I think the target was not any specific organiser, but tournament organisers at large. That media scrutiny would incentivise them to tighten anti-cheating measures.

So do you think it's an "end justifies the means" kind of situation, where although Magnus' behaviour was a bit childish it was justified because it was the best way to get the desired action out of it, or do you feel that Magnus' histrionics were the right thing to do and as long as Hans appears to be guilty (at least of lying about the extent of his cheating, regardless of whether he cheated at the Sinquefield Cup, but the fact it already looks like he's a serial liar above his previous cheating incidents doesn't look good) Magnus comes out of this looking good?

I think the situation has been worsened by the fact that because of Magnus' stature and position within the sport, he has a lot of adherents and people who are unwilling to call him out when he's not covering himself with glory either. It's not that it took Magnus to call out Hans, it's the way he did it. I think his attitude here has been petulant and unbecoming of a guy of his stature and legacy, and he would need to come out and explicitly state something to the effect of what you're implying regarding why he has conducted himself in this matter for me to reappraise that to be honest.

 

[Netserk]

All strategic behaviour is a matter of ends justifying the means. You can evaluate both the immediate first order costs and benefits and the later second order costs and benefits of such behaviour.

I'm fairly confident that Hans is a serial cheater who deserves what he is currently receiving (which is not much so far). My only concerns are the second order costs of lowering the threshold for what evidence is needed before levelling accusations of cheating (and what would follow from that), but it's still too early to properly evaluate that. He has still not been excluded from any over the board tournaments (he has just been scrutinised in public so far) and I think it's likely that the bar needed to be cleared will still be high after this. We'll see.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

All strategic behaviour is a matter of ends justifying the means. You can evaluate both the immediate first order costs and benefits and the later second order costs and benefits of such behaviour.

I'm fairly confident that Hans is a serial cheater who deserves what he is currently receiving (which is not much so far). My only concerns are the second order costs of lowering the threshold for what evidence is needed before levelling accusations of cheating (and what would follow from that), but it's still too early to properly evaluate that. He has still not been excluded from any over the board tournaments (he has just been scrutinised in public so far) and I think it's likely that the bar needed to be cleared will still be high after this. We'll see.

I'm not asking whether you think it's strategic behaviour. I'm asking whether you personally think Magnus comes out of this looking good, whether his conduct has been becoming of a competitor of his stature.

 

[Netserk]

I'm not asking whether you think it's strategic behaviour. I'm asking whether you personally think Magnus comes out of this looking good, whether his conduct has been becoming of a competitor of his stature.

I think those two things are unimportant, I don't care about them. I think his actions seem to be on the side of what's good, so far. And that's good enough for me.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think those two things are unimportant, I don't care about them. I think his actions seem to be on the side of what's good, so far. And that's good enough for me.

Cool. I think Magnus' conduct - and the fact that he has this orbit of disciples and much of the chess world is unwilling to call him out - cheapens what positive outcome there may be, and this appears to be the difference between us. Even if he may be right, I can't just excuse all his histrionics as being above reproach.

But hey, we know from cycling that we have different viewpoints on how much peoples' personal conduct away from their vocation should impact our stance on them within their vocation, so I'm happy to agree that Magnus is probably right to call out Hans, disagree on interpretation of Magnus' conduct in doing so, and leave it there.

 

[Netserk]

Speaking of second order effects:

Sjakkpresidenten trekker seg etter NRKs jukseavsløring

Etter massivt press har sjakkpresident Joachim Birger Nilsen valgt å trekke seg. Det skjer bare ett døgn etter NRKs avsløring om at sjakkpresidenten erkjente juks.

www.nrk.no

And from VG:

Norsk sjakkpresident innrømmer juks: – Må stille spørsmål om han er rett mann til å lede forbundet

Joachim Birger Nilsen (29) innrømmer å ha jukset. NRK-ekspert Torstein Bae er usikker på om han kan fortsette i vervet som president for sjakkforbundet.

www.vg.no

Det er en sørgelig sak, og det blir stadig mer klart at dette handler om en kultur i norsk og internasjonal sjakk hvor juks på nettet har foregått i massivt omfang. Og det har heller ikke blitt tatt så alvorlig som det burde ha blitt, sier Bae til VG.

Jeg visste at han hadde jukset. Alle sjakkfolk visste om det. Men det er fint at han står frem. Jeg synes ikke at han burde blitt president, men han har sikkert gjort en god jobb, sier Hauge.