Doping in other sports?

[peterfin]

38 year old Patrick Lange on pace to break IM Kona record by at least 10 min, fun to remember the Stone Age back in 2017 when he almost retired but decided to give it one more shot and won the race with a course record half an hour slower.

The triatlon records are getting ridiculous. It's all due to the professionalism, shoes with a carbon plate and aerodynamics according to the articles. So until recently they were just a bunch of amateurs or what?

 

[Rob5091]

I think these are probably articles written by the Reuters journalist that got WADA's head of media relations, James Fitzgerald, a press pass for the Masters Golf Tournament.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ves-doping-stories-wada-employee-masters-pass

Makes me wonder what the heck the Reuters journalist thought he was going to get for his "help".

 

[houtdffan]

Elite golfers 'turning to mushrooms and psychedelics' to dominate the PGA Tour

More and more golfers are using psychedelics in a bid to improve their game.

www.express.co.uk

golfers using mushrooms that are not on the WADA banned list

 

[peterfin]

Elite golfers 'turning to mushrooms and psychedelics' to dominate the PGA Tour

More and more golfers are using psychedelics in a bid to improve their game.

www.express.co.uk

golfers using mushrooms that are not on the WADA banned list

Probably to get rid of their biggest handicap: their ego.

 

[proffate]

The triatlon records are getting ridiculous. It's all due to the professionalism, shoes with a carbon plate and aerodynamics according to the articles. So until recently they were just a bunch of amateurs or what?

I don't follow tri much but don't the carbon shoes go 3% faster for free? How much are the records dropping?

 

[peterfin]

I don't follow tri much but don't the carbon shoes go 3% faster for free? How much are the records dropping?

They were always +8h up to 2017. Some were close (1996, 2011, 2017) but since 2018 they are always below 8h: 7h52, 7h51, 7h49, 7h40 and now 7h35:53!

 

[Nick2413]

I don't follow tri much but don't the carbon shoes go 3% faster for free? How much are the records dropping?

Top bike splits in Kona have dropped from 4:20 to under 4 hours in the last handful of years with run remaining relatively steady (Mark Allen ran 2:42 back in the 90s while the record is only 7 min better now; bike splits were in the 4:40+ range back then). Swim times are 47-48 min now vs low 50s for most of the past.

It makes sense for bike splits to keep improving but it’s not like they didn’t have wind tunnels and other gear just a few years ago yet guys like Lange have improved by 15-20 min on the bike since his first IMWC win in 2017 (can’t remember which shoes were out then but his run splits have been similar each of his 3 wins in 2017, 2018, 2024).

There was one big bust for EPO of a top guy last year and some pros have been on record saying they think there’s a doping problem in the sport, but otherwise not a ton of drama in the top ranks.

 

[Ripper]

Top bike splits in Kona have dropped from 4:20 to under 4 hours in the last handful of years with run remaining relatively steady (Mark Allen ran 2:42 back in the 90s while the record is only 7 min better now; bike splits were in the 4:40+ range back then). Swim times are 47-48 min now vs low 50s for most of the past.

It makes sense for bike splits to keep improving but it’s not like they didn’t have wind tunnels and other gear just a few years ago yet guys like Lange have improved by 15-20 min on the bike since his first IMWC win in 2017 (can’t remember which shoes were out then but his run splits have been similar each of his 3 wins in 2017, 2018, 2024).

There was one big bust for EPO of a top guy last year and some pros have been on record saying they think there’s a doping problem in the sport, but otherwise not a ton of drama in the top ranks.

It has indeed been fairly muted in the triathlon world, but the times have dropped crazy over the past 5-6 years. 180km TT at an average pace of around 45 kph, then jumping off an running a marathon at under 4 min/km. I am not sure how intensive the testing is in the triathlon world?

 

[Nick2413]

It has indeed been fairly muted in the triathlon world, but the times have dropped crazy over the past 5-6 years. 180km TT at an average pace of around 45 kph, then jumping off an running a marathon at under 4 min/km. I am not sure how intensive the testing is in the triathlon world?

You’ll occasionally see a pro post about getting drug tested to remind us all how clean they are but I think it’s pretty minimal overall. They do have license to do pretty much whatever they want with their bikes, using fairings, geometry and gear that would be UCI illegal etc, but playing around with CdA pace calculators it seems wattage must still be going up a lot regardless.

 

[Ripper]

You’ll occasionally see a pro post about getting drug tested to remind us all how clean they are but I think it’s pretty minimal overall. They do have license to do pretty much whatever they want with their bikes, using fairings, geometry and gear that would be UCI illegal etc, but playing around with CdA pace calculators it seems wattage must still be going up a lot regardless.

And some of the positional changes they've made might improve efficiency, or running off the bike, but I doubt make them aerodynamically much quicker.

 

[proffate]

Top bike splits in Kona have dropped from 4:20 to under 4 hours in the last handful of years with run remaining relatively steady (Mark Allen ran 2:42 back in the 90s while the record is only 7 min better now; bike splits were in the 4:40+ range back then). Swim times are 47-48 min now vs low 50s for most of the past.

It makes sense for bike splits to keep improving but it’s not like they didn’t have wind tunnels and other gear just a few years ago yet guys like Lange have improved by 15-20 min on the bike since his first IMWC win in 2017 (can’t remember which shoes were out then but his run splits have been similar each of his 3 wins in 2017, 2018, 2024).

2:42 down to 2:35 is on the order of what you'd expect with the better shoes and maybe a better athlete. The talent pool must be up since the 90s, after all. But looking at run or bike alone seems kinda pointless because don't some people save for a single leg so they can at least "win" something?

If bike split is the only thing that's dropping substantially I'm willing to chalk it up to aerodynamics. Sure they had wind tunnels, but it's only in the last few years that there's been an explosion of aero socks, aero fabrics, custom molded extensions, strategically placed bottles, etc. etc.

If it were all down to drugs then why is only bike dropping?

 

[Nick2413]

2:42 down to 2:35 is on the order of what you'd expect with the better shoes and maybe a better athlete. The talent pool must be up since the 90s, after all. But looking at run or bike alone seems kinda pointless because don't some people save for a single leg so they can at least "win" something?

If bike split is the only thing that's dropping substantially I'm willing to chalk it up to aerodynamics. Sure they had wind tunnels, but it's only in the last few years that there's been an explosion of aero socks, aero fabrics, custom molded extensions, strategically placed bottles, etc. etc.

If it were all down to drugs then why is only bike dropping?

I agree it doesn’t seem as bad when you look at it discipline by discipline and see most of the gains are on the bike. The other difference is you pretty much need a low 2:40 or even high 2:30 marathon to win many races these days on top of the way faster bike. So peak marathon times haven’t dropped as much but the required time to win has. I don’t really know, it could be worse.

 

[Oldermanish]

2:42 down to 2:35 is on the order of what you'd expect with the better shoes and maybe a better athlete. The talent pool must be up since the 90s, after all. But looking at run or bike alone seems kinda pointless because don't some people save for a single leg so they can at least "win" something?

If bike split is the only thing that's dropping substantially I'm willing to chalk it up to aerodynamics. Sure they had wind tunnels, but it's only in the last few years that there's been an explosion of aero socks, aero fabrics, custom molded extensions, strategically placed bottles, etc. etc.

If it were all down to drugs then why is only bike dropping?

If the bike times are dropping that means they are putting out more effort. That would make the running portion that much more difficult to even sustain prior standards. It improves both in the overall scheme of the race. It makes more sense to take the most time possible in the lowest impact effort; leaving enough to actually complete the race. That and maybe more tri-folks are actually riding a bike instead of an indoor setup. I don't know but that seemed to be a weakness my wife exploited against competition. No drugs; just learned technique?

 

[proffate]

If the bike times are dropping that means they are putting out more effort.

we don't really know that do we? The point of getting aero in tri is as much about reducing effort as increasing speed.

Both of these riders look pretty dumb, but one has taken the shamelessness to a much more professional level:

I am willing to believe that a skinsuit is faster when it hugs the skin than when it fits like a baggy t shirt, and even though I don't care for Canyon, that bike is probably faster than the pizza delivery vehicle in the first picture

 

[smaryka]

They don't allow disc wheels at Kona but that rear wheel is nearly there...

The bottles at the chest will improve aerodynamics. It seems to get around the triathlon ban on chest fairings (water bottle or hydration bag down front of jersey). The skinsuit fabric will have been tested in a wind tunnel vs other dimpled/aero fabrics.

The position on the bike now almost looks like a running position, leaning forward, hip angle barely closing? Compared with the pic above which looks more like a traditional TT position. Basically they have found a way to make cycling less run-performance-decreasing while still keeping it as aero as possible.

However I'm sure whatever has gone on for years still goes on, just that all those other very expensive aero gains are now added in to make the bike leg faster.

Kona was ridiculously full of uptight type-A competition 15 years ago when I was there, I found the whole environment decidedly hostile and unpleasant. Can't see why it would change, in fact I'm sure it's even worse as more and more ordinary people are priced out of going, what with the arms race in equipment and crazy entry prices.

 

[Oldermanish]

we don't really know that do we? The point of getting aero in tri is as much about reducing effort as increasing speed.

Both of these riders look pretty dumb, but one has taken the shamelessness to a much more professional level:

I am willing to believe that a skinsuit is faster when it hugs the skin than when it fits like a baggy t shirt, and even though I don't care for Canyon, that bike is probably faster than the pizza delivery vehicle in the first picture

Well the first picture is nealry 30 year old technology and technique so, yeah; the Canyon setup (minus a afew bottles) would probably be much faster with the same effort. Two different eras, body types and positions would indicate improvement.
If you're talking major improvements in the last 5 years it would be a blend of technique, technology and focus. If you know your strengths, the course/conditions better than the other racers you can commit more effort where it counts on a long TT. Most road racers don't know how to race into wind and hills effectively and ship huge time to those that do. World Tour TT'ers even prioritize courses that suit them if they really need a win.
Triathletes below the top level just don't spend enough time riding outdoors. They also spend waaaaay too much time in aero training, IMO. Riding zone 2-3 on an aero bike is a waste of energy when you can highlight those efforts on the TT bike to better get the sense of a racing effort. Case in point: how many days a week do you think the Canyon rider does a 100km effort in that position?

 

[proffate]

Well the first picture is nealry 30 year old technology and technique so, yeah; the Canyon setup (minus a afew bottles) would probably be much faster with the same effort. Two different eras, body types and positions would indicate improvement.

what do you mean minus a few bottles? The bottles are there for speed.

 

[Nick2413]

Well the first picture is nealry 30 year old technology and technique so, yeah; the Canyon setup (minus a afew bottles) would probably be much faster with the same effort. Two different eras, body types and positions would indicate improvement.
If you're talking major improvements in the last 5 years it would be a blend of technique, technology and focus. If you know your strengths, the course/conditions better than the other racers you can commit more effort where it counts on a long TT. Most road racers don't know how to race into wind and hills effectively and ship huge time to those that do. World Tour TT'ers even prioritize courses that suit them if they really need a win.
Triathletes below the top level just don't spend enough time riding outdoors. They also spend waaaaay too much time in aero training, IMO. Riding zone 2-3 on an aero bike is a waste of energy when you can highlight those efforts on the TT bike to better get the sense of a racing effort. Case in point: how many days a week do you think the Canyon rider does a 100km effort in that position?

I don’t think they’re doing anything fancy with changing much about execution on different parts of a course other than riding slightly harder uphill since it yields better time savings compared to going harder on the flat. Some of them avoid or prioritize certain profiles of course. You could argue the higher saturation of talent these days allows for more time savings via legal drafting in the 12m zone.

 

[Cookster15]

It has indeed been fairly muted in the triathlon world, but the times have dropped crazy over the past 5-6 years. 180km TT at an average pace of around 45 kph, then jumping off an running a marathon at under 4 min/km. I am not sure how intensive the testing is in the triathlon world?

The training has to be world class to run sub 4min km after completing a 180km TT at 45km/h. It is completely insane these times. A lot here never run, let alone run with tired cycling legs so simply have no idea. The world record holder for the marathon is a Kenyan. He would melt if asked to ride a 180km TT before starting his run. In fact, I doubt any of those Kenyans or Ethiopians would even finish an ironman race even if they could swim.

As for the times, most of the improvement has been made in the bike legs. In 1989 (35 years ago) Mark Allen and Dave Scott ran 2:40. And we should also remember that "pizza delivery vehicle" is still way quicker than a standard road bike position.

 

[Nick2413]

The world record holder for the marathon is a Kenyan. He would melt if asked to ride a 180km TT before starting his run. In fact, I doubt any of those Kenyans or Ethiopians would even finish an ironman race even if they could swim.

Off topic, but I bet Kipchoge et all could go around 10 hours easily with no training by basically coasting for 6 hrs on the bike in TT position at 120W and jogging for 3 hrs at 110HR, assuming he can swim or even do some breast stroke. Hardest part would be the sore butt.

 

[Rob5091]

14 year od Russian swimmer gets 4 year ban for turinabol.
https://globalhappenings.com/sports/584897.html

14-year-old swimmer Millana Zagartdinova became the youngest Russian athlete to be disqualified for using prohibited substances. The young athlete was suspended for four years for using steroids, but her coach and sports school director did not suffer any punishment.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

14 year od Russian swimmer gets 4 year ban for turinabol.
https://globalhappenings.com/sports/584897.html

I find this part a bit puzzling, and I'll quote the article:

“When a girl at 14 is found to be doping, this is already unusual. When she is found to be on a hard anabolic drug from the GDR era, it is doubly surprising. The youngest disqualified in Russian history. And this is a swimmer, not even a gymnast or figure skater..."

Why would gymnasts or figure skaters be more likely to dope at a young age than swimmers? Gymnastics and figure skating are very skill based whereas swimming, while there is some technique involved, is raw power and endurance. And the journalist who said this seems to be aware that there was some hardcore doping going on in the GDR, so why be surprised when a young female swimmer is popped for anabolics? Was the journalist not aware much of GDR's success came from doped up young female swimmers?

Maybe I'm misreading things but I just find it odd.

 

[Ripper]

I find this part a bit puzzling, and I'll quote the article:

“When a girl at 14 is found to be doping, this is already unusual. When she is found to be on a hard anabolic drug from the GDR era, it is doubly surprising. The youngest disqualified in Russian history. And this is a swimmer, not even a gymnast or figure skater..."

Why would gymnasts or figure skaters be more likely to dope at a young age than swimmers? Gymnastics and figure skating are very skill based whereas swimming, while there is some technique involved, is raw power and endurance. And the journalist who said this seems to be aware that there was some hardcore doping going on in the GDR, so why be surprised when a young female swimmer is popped for anabolics? Was the journalist not aware much of GDR's success came from doped up young female swimmers?

Maybe I'm misreading things but I just find it odd.

It is odd. The journalist appears to be drawing a false equivalency to the sports he thinks are more likely to have doping, perhaps because those are sports where that nation tends to excel. It's just poor logic and critical thinking

 

[Tricycle Rider]

It is odd. The journalist appears to be drawing a false equivalency to the sports he thinks are more likely to have doping, perhaps because those are sports where that nation tends to excel. It's just poor logic and critical thinking

Another thing, turinabol, which this Russian gal was allegedly popped for, was the very same drug given to young female swimmers from the GDR, if turinabol worked back then why wouldn't it work now? (Not that I'm condoning it or anything.)

I just fail to see why this journalist seems so surprised.

 

[Nick2413]

I find this part a bit puzzling, and I'll quote the article:

“When a girl at 14 is found to be doping, this is already unusual. When she is found to be on a hard anabolic drug from the GDR era, it is doubly surprising. The youngest disqualified in Russian history. And this is a swimmer, not even a gymnast or figure skater..."

Why would gymnasts or figure skaters be more likely to dope at a young age than swimmers? Gymnastics and figure skating are very skill based whereas swimming, while there is some technique involved, is raw power and endurance. And the journalist who said this seems to be aware that there was some hardcore doping going on in the GDR, so why be surprised when a young female swimmer is popped for anabolics? Was the journalist not aware much of GDR's success came from doped up young female swimmers?

Maybe I'm misreading things but I just find it odd.

Gymnastics require more strength and muscle than swimming.