- Jun 15, 2009
- 8,529
- 1
- 0
Re:
Doing it the whole time. He believes in the clean athlete per se. Only positives count. Everything else not. Wolkenkucksheim.
The Hitch said:
Doing it the whole time. He believes in the clean athlete per se. Only positives count. Everything else not. Wolkenkucksheim.
- Jul 16, 2011
- 3,251
- 812
- 15,680
I stopped posting for a couple of reasons. The main one being that my time is too precious at the moment to waste. It's hard enough fitting the Giro into my day. If I learn anything useful in Jamaica, I might stop by in July.
- Jun 16, 2010
- 1,458
- 0
- 10,480
Re:
Hitch - show me one piece of evidence that proves the clenbuterol in Contador's system had a performance enhancing effect on the 2010 TDF win.
You know full well on the evidence the quantity of clen was so infinitesimally small (50 picograms or 50 trillionths of a gram) any qualified pharmacologist would clearly conclude it would have been impossible to have affected his performance in the TDF. In spite of this fact, you continue to make the absurd argument AC is a serial doper. This case was the only case Contador has ever tested positive ( And don't mock me with the "never tested positive" argument to infer doping, which is as tired and old as your comments)
The CAS stated as follows:
326. The Panel is therefore accepts that a piece of meat being contaminated with clenbuterol could cause an adverse analytical finding of 50 pg/mL of clenbuterol in Mr. Contador’s bodily sample.
327. The Panel is satisfied that Mr. Contador ate meat at the relevant time and that if the meat that he ate was contaminated with clenbuterol it is possible that this caused the presence of 50 pg/mL clenbuterol in a urine doping sample.
328. In that relation, on the basis of all the evidence adduced, the Panel considers it highly
likely that the meat came from a calf reared in Spain and very likely that the relevant piece
of meat came from the farming company Hermanos Carabia Muñoz SL.
329. As the parties agreed that it is possible that a contaminated piece of meat could cause
an adverse analytical finding of 50 pg/mL of clenbuterol, the only remaining element (the
“missing link”) is whether that specific piece of meat was contaminated with clenbuterol.
The Panel is not prepared to conclude from a mere possibility that the meat could have been contaminated that an actual contamination occurred.
The CAS found that on the evidence it was unlikely the clen came from contaminated meat, because the best Contador could prove was that it was a possibility.
The problem Contador had was an evidence problem. He was simply not able to prove on the balance of probabilities the meat he ate caused the clen reading. The CAS found it was possible, but the proof that it was probable was lacking. This is not surprising given the onus of proof was on Contador and the extreme difficulty he had in tracing the source of the meat and even if he could prove exactly where it came from, getting the rancher to admit he used clen in his animals which would have opened that rancher up to liability for using clen.
They found Contador guilty on the basis clen was not a threshold drug and therefore strict liability applied. The pharmacological evidence established that in order for the clen to have even had a possible performance enhancing effect it would have had to be at least 250 picograms. The reality is even 250 trillionths of a gram could not have had a performance enhancing effect.
And don't bore us with the speculation of a blood transfusion. The CAS said this about that,
367. After considering the positions of all the parties and the expert reports of Dr. Ashenden and
Mr. Scott, the Panel comes to the conclusion that the Athlete’s blood parameters cannot establish a blood transfusion.
454. To sum up, for the above reasons, the Panel finds that although the blood transfusion
theory is a possible explanation for the adverse analytical finding, in light of all the
evidence adduced and as explained above, it is very unlikely to have occurred
It would be nice if just for once you deal in the truth of the facts, instead of always taking the Contador case out of its proper context every time you comment on it. You are being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.
Contador's one and only positive test and suspension was due to the strict liability of the clen in July 2010, and yet you continue to employ intellectual dishonesty to absurdly suggest on the basis of the clenbuterol finding that Contador is a serial doper.
Now we all know you have an ingrained bias against Contador, based on your usual specious speculation and guilt by association or guilt by good results or whatever other vacuous metric you employ. You might want to consider this,
“The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it.” (George Bernard Shaw)
Have a great day ffs!
The Hitch said:
Hitch - show me one piece of evidence that proves the clenbuterol in Contador's system had a performance enhancing effect on the 2010 TDF win.
You know full well on the evidence the quantity of clen was so infinitesimally small (50 picograms or 50 trillionths of a gram) any qualified pharmacologist would clearly conclude it would have been impossible to have affected his performance in the TDF. In spite of this fact, you continue to make the absurd argument AC is a serial doper. This case was the only case Contador has ever tested positive ( And don't mock me with the "never tested positive" argument to infer doping, which is as tired and old as your comments)
The CAS stated as follows:
326. The Panel is therefore accepts that a piece of meat being contaminated with clenbuterol could cause an adverse analytical finding of 50 pg/mL of clenbuterol in Mr. Contador’s bodily sample.
327. The Panel is satisfied that Mr. Contador ate meat at the relevant time and that if the meat that he ate was contaminated with clenbuterol it is possible that this caused the presence of 50 pg/mL clenbuterol in a urine doping sample.
328. In that relation, on the basis of all the evidence adduced, the Panel considers it highly
likely that the meat came from a calf reared in Spain and very likely that the relevant piece
of meat came from the farming company Hermanos Carabia Muñoz SL.
329. As the parties agreed that it is possible that a contaminated piece of meat could cause
an adverse analytical finding of 50 pg/mL of clenbuterol, the only remaining element (the
“missing link”) is whether that specific piece of meat was contaminated with clenbuterol.
The Panel is not prepared to conclude from a mere possibility that the meat could have been contaminated that an actual contamination occurred.
The CAS found that on the evidence it was unlikely the clen came from contaminated meat, because the best Contador could prove was that it was a possibility.
The problem Contador had was an evidence problem. He was simply not able to prove on the balance of probabilities the meat he ate caused the clen reading. The CAS found it was possible, but the proof that it was probable was lacking. This is not surprising given the onus of proof was on Contador and the extreme difficulty he had in tracing the source of the meat and even if he could prove exactly where it came from, getting the rancher to admit he used clen in his animals which would have opened that rancher up to liability for using clen.
They found Contador guilty on the basis clen was not a threshold drug and therefore strict liability applied. The pharmacological evidence established that in order for the clen to have even had a possible performance enhancing effect it would have had to be at least 250 picograms. The reality is even 250 trillionths of a gram could not have had a performance enhancing effect.
And don't bore us with the speculation of a blood transfusion. The CAS said this about that,
367. After considering the positions of all the parties and the expert reports of Dr. Ashenden and
Mr. Scott, the Panel comes to the conclusion that the Athlete’s blood parameters cannot establish a blood transfusion.
454. To sum up, for the above reasons, the Panel finds that although the blood transfusion
theory is a possible explanation for the adverse analytical finding, in light of all the
evidence adduced and as explained above, it is very unlikely to have occurred
It would be nice if just for once you deal in the truth of the facts, instead of always taking the Contador case out of its proper context every time you comment on it. You are being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.
Contador's one and only positive test and suspension was due to the strict liability of the clen in July 2010, and yet you continue to employ intellectual dishonesty to absurdly suggest on the basis of the clenbuterol finding that Contador is a serial doper.
Now we all know you have an ingrained bias against Contador, based on your usual specious speculation and guilt by association or guilt by good results or whatever other vacuous metric you employ. You might want to consider this,
“The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it.” (George Bernard Shaw)
Have a great day ffs!
- Jul 16, 2011
- 3,251
- 812
- 15,680
Re: Re:
1) no they didn't and 2) don't present my reasoning in over-simplified form. A whole raft of elements made him fast...the long stride is just one (significant) part of it. You know that. I know that. Why bother with this "trying to win the internet" BS? There are some on here I expect it from but you can, and normally do, rise above that.
This is exactly why posting in threads like this one becomes pointless.
It's like the post on sectional timings to demonstrate that bolt is a fast starter. Of course he started quickly on the occasion that he broke the record. When he broke the record, he ran pretty much the optimum race. He never ran quite that fast before or since. There have been many more races when he has had to run down the field from 30m to 90m. You don't need sectional timings for that, you just watch the races.
FWIW, I thought he probably anticipated the gun on his WR run but that's impossible to prove.
Back to the Giro, seeing as I have the chance to watch it today.
The Hitch said:
1) no they didn't and 2) don't present my reasoning in over-simplified form. A whole raft of elements made him fast...the long stride is just one (significant) part of it. You know that. I know that. Why bother with this "trying to win the internet" BS? There are some on here I expect it from but you can, and normally do, rise above that.
This is exactly why posting in threads like this one becomes pointless.
It's like the post on sectional timings to demonstrate that bolt is a fast starter. Of course he started quickly on the occasion that he broke the record. When he broke the record, he ran pretty much the optimum race. He never ran quite that fast before or since. There have been many more races when he has had to run down the field from 30m to 90m. You don't need sectional timings for that, you just watch the races.
FWIW, I thought he probably anticipated the gun on his WR run but that's impossible to prove.
Back to the Giro, seeing as I have the chance to watch it today.
- Aug 31, 2012
- 7,550
- 3
- 0
Froome tweeted that Federer should toughen up about spectators getting close to athletes cos cyclists are exposed to that sorta thing all the time, causing much anger amongst the tennis fans. Doped up cyclists daring to cricitise clean tennis, what an outrage.
Yet more evidence that making a big deal out of doping, as cycling has done and continues to do, is simply a disastrous commercial mistake.
Yet more evidence that making a big deal out of doping, as cycling has done and continues to do, is simply a disastrous commercial mistake.
- Jan 27, 2012
- 15,180
- 2,555
- 28,180
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
- Aug 24, 2011
- 4,349
- 0
- 13,480
With the discussion on Gatlin and other Sprinters I thought this was quite interesting
Taken from the following BBC article:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150525-whats-the-prime-of-your-life
Sprinters clearly peak younger than endurance runners (and the same will hold for cyclists)
Just puts the recent discussion on Gatlin into even more stark relief. He is ~10 years past his expected peak, and beat his doped times for a PR.
Taken from the following BBC article:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150525-whats-the-prime-of-your-life
Sprinters clearly peak younger than endurance runners (and the same will hold for cyclists)
Just puts the recent discussion on Gatlin into even more stark relief. He is ~10 years past his expected peak, and beat his doped times for a PR.
- May 19, 2010
- 1,899
- 0
- 0
Doping: Men’s 100m sub-10: http://athleticsillustrated.com/editorial/gatlin-gay-and-powell-are-not-alone-in-their-cheating/
Doping: Women’s 100m performances to 10.99: http://athleticsillustrated.com/editorial/wada-doping/doping-womens-100m-performance-to-10-99/
Doping: Women’s 100m performances to 10.99: http://athleticsillustrated.com/editorial/wada-doping/doping-womens-100m-performance-to-10-99/
Re:
Having a difference of opinion is not trolling.
I could easily accuse you of trolling because you think Bolt is doping and I don't.
I gave my honest opinion and my reasons, that is not trolling that is my view.
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Having a difference of opinion is not trolling.
I could easily accuse you of trolling because you think Bolt is doping and I don't.
I gave my honest opinion and my reasons, that is not trolling that is my view.
- Feb 9, 2013
- 7,193
- 8,554
- 23,180
The Prefontaine Classic, 2015 edition...
I used to go to the Pre meet being I live in "Track Town, USA"... and don't get me wrong, I loved it, the energy at Hayward Field is like nothing else. There's just so much going on at the same time you don't know what to look at (or cheer for) first.
But being I'm getting older (and hopefully wiser), I'm just not sure which of these world class T&F athletes dope more, so I don't go anymore. NBC will show the highlights (and I'll watch), but that's about all I'm willing to pay for these days.
I used to go to the Pre meet being I live in "Track Town, USA"... and don't get me wrong, I loved it, the energy at Hayward Field is like nothing else. There's just so much going on at the same time you don't know what to look at (or cheer for) first.
But being I'm getting older (and hopefully wiser), I'm just not sure which of these world class T&F athletes dope more, so I don't go anymore. NBC will show the highlights (and I'll watch), but that's about all I'm willing to pay for these days.
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
- Feb 9, 2013
- 7,193
- 8,554
- 23,180
Re:
As an aside - I have an old poster from a Pre meet from years ago - it features Asafa Powell and Justin Gatlin going against each other because they both were the current world record holders in the 100m...
Perhaps not surprisingly it turns out they're both dopers, so... bah.
PS - Usain Bolt has never showed/signed up for the Pre meet, what could be the reason? People in Eugene love and adore track (and we usually see the best of the best of the Jamaicans), so I'm just a bit puzzled.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic (don't know the "tone" of your posts well enough, I'm afraid), but I wasn't about to pay $45 for a decent seat at Hayward Field. NBC I already get on my local TV, though, so I didn't feel like I was paying something extra to see a bunch of dopers perform their trade.Dear Wiggo said:
As an aside - I have an old poster from a Pre meet from years ago - it features Asafa Powell and Justin Gatlin going against each other because they both were the current world record holders in the 100m...
Perhaps not surprisingly it turns out they're both dopers, so... bah.
PS - Usain Bolt has never showed/signed up for the Pre meet, what could be the reason? People in Eugene love and adore track (and we usually see the best of the best of the Jamaicans), so I'm just a bit puzzled.
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
No it was sincere. I wouldn't pay money to attend a sporting event as a spectator ever. Not saying there's anything wrong with doing it at all, just not my cup of tea.
- Feb 9, 2013
- 7,193
- 8,554
- 23,180
Re:
I laughed so hard when I watched that, the dude is just shamelessly back on the juice again. (We're talking serious jet fuel here, not sure the IAAF [or whatever useless organization] has any interest in busting him again, though.)Singer01 said:
- Aug 31, 2012
- 7,550
- 3
- 0
TRENDING THREADS
-
World Championship 2025: Men’s RR, September 28- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 2K
-
Il Lombardia 2025, monument, October 11- Started by Krzysztof_O
- Replies: 792
-
European Championship 2025: Men’s RR, October 5- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 854
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 35K
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 40K
-
World Championship 2025: Men’s ITT, September 21- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 942
-
Teams & Riders The Great Big Cycling Transfers, Extensions, and Rumours Thread- Started by RedheadDane
- Replies: 13K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram