Doping in other sports?

[Casualfan]

Can't imagine they can keep the medal. I mean we are talking cheating here.

They are keeping the medal. You need 2 players to test positive. I honestly believe that this was a simple mistake and they hadn't realised it was a banned substance. Stupidity, but hardly "juicing" as you put it.

The testing in the NHL is minimal. I don't recall any players ever getting caught. It probably happens, but is rare.


Pro hockey players have been getting bigger, and bigger through the years, even though the population as a whole has stayed the same size. The most important stat that the teams use to recruit, is height. It's the first thing that they look at when deciding whether to draft a junior player, or not. Not goals scored, assists, +/-, nor any other performance based stat.

You think that teenaged prospects don't know this ? Getting to the pros is their whole life. Do you think a significant percentage of these prospects would seek out some edge like growth hormones ?

The number of players getting concussions in the NHL have skyrocketed in the last few years.
I strongly suspect that the bigger (due to growth hormones and steroids) players hitting each other harder has a lot to do with this.

My guess is that more than half of the pro hockey players are on something.

Or, it could just be that diagnosis for concussions has become much, much better in recent years. In the past, players would play on with a concussion and sometimes picked up even more serious side effects. There was a big deal made of it, and now they have a system in place to test concussions more effectively. No player is given the benefit of the doubt now.

I'd also object to the "height" argument. Players are drafted on skill, first and foremost. Undersized players are in the league and can make it if they have the ability. Heck, St Louis just won a gold medal in his mid 30s and he's only 5"9

 

[Walkman]

Can't imagine they can keep the medal. I mean we are talking cheating here.

He has had the same medicine for 7 years due to his allergies. Too high concentration was the reason he failed the test.

 

[melkemugg]

So they lose silver, right?

No. Niklas did not start the final today, but the whole Swedish team seemed a little off.

He got caught for something he took against allergy.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

No. Niklas did not start the final today, but the whole Swedish team seemed a little off.

He got caught for something he took against allergy.

So what? Its a failed dope test.

Normally results affected by such a dope test, i.e. semis should be corrected.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The most important stat that the teams use to recruit, is height. It's the first thing that they look at when deciding whether to draft a junior player, or not. Not goals scored, assists, +/-, nor any other performance based stat.

Same $hit happens again and again in the NFL. That´s how they miss out on the likes of London Fletcher, or gave up to early on Flutie.
OTOH with them being too much obsessed with physical numbers they endlessly draft busts like Dan McGwire...
But in the end of the day "gamers" with outstanding skills matter. Will they ever learn?

 

[melkemugg]

So what? Its a failed dope test.

Normally results affected by such a dope test, i.e. semis should be corrected.

Why?

(ten char)

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Why?

(ten char)

Because he played in the semis doped. He affected the game. Therefore it needs to be corrected. Looks simple to me, or perhaps the sport just wants to ignore the problem and move forward.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I heard it was for pseudoephedrine, which is a decongestant.

Also, didn't WADA take it off the banned list?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Evi Sachenbachers 4th placed team was DQed after her positive came out. I really wonder why other rules apply for NHL players. I mean the heck with the NHL, but at olympic games the rules should be equal for every athlete no matter if skiing or hockey.
The only rule that makes sense would be: SWE DQed, Finland 2nd, USA 3rd...

 

[BradCantona]

My question would be, if he's been given an exemption beyond a certain dosage, why does he have more of it that that in his system?

I understand mistakes can be made, but systems can also be played for personal advantage. Would be interesting to learn why this substance is on the banned list

 

[Walkman]

My question would be, if he's been given an exemption beyond a certain dosage, why does he have more of it that that in his system?

I understand mistakes can be made, but systems can also be played for personal advantage. Would be interesting to learn why this substance is on the banned list

Maybe he digest it too close? WADA recommends no use within 24 hour of competition.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Evi Sachenbachers 4th placed team was DQed after her positive came out. I really wonder why other rules apply for NHL players. I mean the heck with the NHL, but at olympic games the rules should be equal for every athlete no matter if skiing or hockey.
The only rule that makes sense would be: SWE DQed, Finland 2nd, USA 3rd...

Correct. My guess is Sweden tanked the gold game to avoid a major embarrassment. Gotta strip the metal from the team imo.

 

[Buffalo]

Thanks Libertine Seguros.
I'm from Canada, where guns are banned. I guess that explains why we suck at the sport.

Guns are not banned. There's a local biathlon club here in the Yukon I'm thinking about joining.

 

[neineinei]

Maybe he digest it too close? WADA recommends no use within 24 hour of competition.

According to Arne Ljungqvist (chairman of IOC's Medical Commission, and vice chairman of WADA) the amount of pseudoefedrin in the sample was far above the threshold, and the threshold is high.

http://www.expressen.se/sport/os/slar-tillbaka-det-ligger-langt-over-gransvardet/

The threshold is 150 mg/l urin, Bäckströms sample containd 190 mg/l.

Timo Seppälä, head physician of the Finnish Anti-Doping Agency:

- Allergy medications do not contain that much pseudoephedrine if you are not using much larger doses than prescribed. But the drugs often contain other substances like antihistamine that makes you sleepy.

- He has probably bought pure pseudoephedrine online, or somewhere in North America. It is used in North American professional leagues, including baseball.

http://hbl.fi/sport/2014-02-23/572141/tre-kronor-stjarna-fast-dopning

 

[neineinei]

Correct. My guess is Sweden tanked the gold game to avoid a major embarrassment. Gotta strip the metal from the team imo.

The rules of the International Ice Hockey Federation states that 2 or more of the players must have tested positive for the team to be disqualified, so they will keep the silver, unless there are more positives.

5.9
If more than two members of a team are found to have committed an anti-doping rule violation during an IIHF competition, the team will be disqualified and relegated into the lower division.

http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/2012_IIHF_Disciplinary_Regulations.pdf

 

[Bubban]

The rules of the International Ice Hockey Federation states that 2 or more of the players must have tested positive for the team to be disqualified, so they will keep the silver, unless there are more positives.



http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/2012_IIHF_Disciplinary_Regulations.pdf

Ridicioulus rule and Finland is the big looser here thanks to the slow handling of the case.

How much pseudoephedrine contains one allergy pill?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

The rules of the International Ice Hockey Federation states that 2 or more of the players must have tested positive for the team to be disqualified, so they will keep the silver, unless there are more positives.



http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/2012_IIHF_Disciplinary_Regulations.pdf

Thanks. Sweden got lucky this time it seems. I would still ban Backstrom from international games for 2 years.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

According to Arne Ljungqvist (chairman of IOC's Medical Commission, and vice chairman of WADA) the amount of pseudoefedrin in the sample was far above the threshold, and the threshold is high.

http://www.expressen.se/sport/os/slar-tillbaka-det-ligger-langt-over-gransvardet/

The threshold is 150 mg/l urin, Bäckströms sample containd 190 mg/l.

Timo Seppälä, head physician of the Finnish Anti-Doping Agency:



http://hbl.fi/sport/2014-02-23/572141/tre-kronor-stjarna-fast-dopning

The stuff has been used as stimulant for years. A bit like the various puffers for cyclists.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The rules of the International Ice Hockey Federation states that 2 or more of the players must have tested positive for the team to be disqualified, so they will keep the silver, unless there are more positives.



http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/2012_IIHF_Disciplinary_Regulations.pdf

What a p(h)uck rule. I guess "lockout champ" Gary Betman lobbied for this rule otherwise no NHL players.

 

[The Death Merchant]

Ridicioulus rule and Finland is the big looser here thanks to the slow handling of the case.

How much pseudoephedrine contains one allergy pill?

Zyrtec D, the drug that Bäckström claims to have taken, contains 120 mg of pseudoephedrine and 5 mg cetirizine in one tablet. And he claims to have taken only one, which is the recommended amount of Zyrtec D. Well the problem is, that it's not possible to have 190 µg/ml pseudoephedrine in your blood, if you only take one tablet.

Pseudoephedrine in one tablet: 120 mg = 120 000 µg

Blood volume in a human is approx. 5 litres = 5000 ml

So the max. pseudoephedrine concetration in blood from one tablet would be:
120 000µg / 5000 ml = 24 µg/ml

In order to get to that 190 µg/ml value, Bäckström would have had to take at least 8 tablets. Which would of course give him an overdose of antihistamine (40 mg cetirizine) and the most common symptoms of antihistamine overdose are extreme drowsiness, inability to concentrate and blurred vision. Not good for a hockey player, especially playing in the biggest games of his life. So really the rational conclusion is, that he's lying about taking Zyrtec D and instead took pure pseudoephedrine to boost his performance i.e. he doped.

It's unbelievable that the Swedes are blaming everyone else for this. It's all completely their own fault. They cheated. Bäckströms doped and got caught. Sweden should be stripped of the silver medals and Bäckström banned. Finland should have been in the final against Canada.

 

[The Hitch]

Zyrtec D, the drug that Bäckström claims to have taken, contains 120 mg of pseudoephedrine and 5 mg cetirizine in one tablet. And he claims to have taken only one, which is the recommended amount of Zyrtec D. Well the problem is, that it's not possible to have 190 µg/ml pseudoephedrine in your blood, if you only take one tablet.

Pseudoephedrine in one tablet: 120 mg = 120 000 µg

Blood volume in a human is approx. 5 litres = 5000 ml

So the max. pseudoephedrine concetration in blood from one tablet would be:
120 000µg / 5000 ml = 24 µg/ml

In order to get to that 190 µg/ml value, Bäckström would have had to take at least 8 tablets. Which would of course give him an overdose of antihistamine (40 mg cetirizine) and the most common symptoms of antihistamine overdose are extreme drowsiness, inability to concentrate and blurred vision. Not good for a hockey player, especially playing in the biggest games of his life. So really the rational conclusion is, that he's lying about taking Zyrtec D and instead took pure pseudoephedrine to boost his performance i.e. he doped.

It's unbelievable that the Swedes are blaming everyone else for this. It's all completely their own fault. They cheated. Bäckströms doped and got caught. Sweden should be stripped of the silver medals and Bäckström banned. Finland should have been in the final against Canada.

Good info.

Out of interest, what if Sweeden had beaten Canada. Would you argue that Canada should get gold even though the "cheating" happened against Finland or that Finland should play Canada for gold post olympics?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Minor point.

Urine tends to have more concentration than plasma.

Still its highly elevated, and a clear case of some other than a single Zyrtec.

 

[alternator]

Evi Sachenbachers 4th placed team was DQed after her positive came out. I really wonder why other rules apply for NHL players. I mean the heck with the NHL, but at olympic games the rules should be equal for every athlete no matter if skiing or hockey.
The only rule that makes sense would be: SWE DQed, Finland 2nd, USA 3rd...

For a team of 20+, with 5 + goalie on the field all the time, different rules than a team of 4 consecutive single performances? It's not a horrible rule that 2+ must fail doping test, however the goalie should be a special case because of the importance of the position. If the goalie fails a doping test, it would be fair that the whole team is DQed.

 

[Bubban]

Zyrtec D, the drug that Bäckström claims to have taken, contains 120 mg of pseudoephedrine and 5 mg cetirizine in one tablet. And he claims to have taken only one, which is the recommended amount of Zyrtec D. Well the problem is, that it's not possible to have 190 µg/ml pseudoephedrine in your blood, if you only take one tablet.

Pseudoephedrine in one tablet: 120 mg = 120 000 µg

Blood volume in a human is approx. 5 litres = 5000 ml

So the max. pseudoephedrine concetration in blood from one tablet would be:
120 000µg / 5000 ml = 24 µg/ml

In order to get to that 190 µg/ml value, Bäckström would have had to take at least 8 tablets. Which would of course give him an overdose of antihistamine (40 mg cetirizine) and the most common symptoms of antihistamine overdose are extreme drowsiness, inability to concentrate and blurred vision. Not good for a hockey player, especially playing in the biggest games of his life. So really the rational conclusion is, that he's lying about taking Zyrtec D and instead took pure pseudoephedrine to boost his performance i.e. he doped.

It's unbelievable that the Swedes are blaming everyone else for this. It's all completely their own fault. They cheated. Bäckströms doped and got caught. Sweden should be stripped of the silver medals and Bäckström banned. Finland should have been in the final against Canada.

Thanks Clear case of doping then.

 

[sugarman]

Zyrtec D, the drug that Bäckström claims to have taken, contains 120 mg of pseudoephedrine and 5 mg cetirizine in one tablet. And he claims to have taken only one, which is the recommended amount of Zyrtec D. Well the problem is, that it's not possible to have 190 µg/ml pseudoephedrine in your blood, if you only take one tablet.

Pseudoephedrine in one tablet: 120 mg ... ...
In order to get to that 190 µg/ml value, Bäckström would have had to take at least 8 tablets. ... ...

Quick pharmacokinetics lesson for anyone interested...

To get an approximate dosage, you multiply the plasma concentration by the drugs Volume of distribution - usually easily googled. For Pseudo, its about 3
So, a level of 190mg/L (x3) gives a dose of about 570mg of Pseudo.*

*This assumes complete absorption from an oral dose, and Pseudo is close enough to 100%.

It also assumes that no metabolism has taken place etc. Im guessing the sample in question would be urine(?) in which case you also need to consider any metabolism - the fraction of Pseudo excreted in urine unchanged is, off hand, somewhere from about 40-80%, (call 60 for argument's sake) - so need to divide the 570mg estimated dose by 0.6 (60%) - which gives a dose of about 950mg of Pseudo - which is actually very close to the 8 tablets you suggested (7.9).

But some drugs readily move out of the Plasma into tissues, so a low plasma level could mean a very high level in the body and so a high dose -- so conc x volume of distribution is the way to go.

Summary: I call BS on the 1 zyrtec story too.