• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Doping in other sports?

Page 115 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
This is the problem though, where do you draw the line? I'd argue that in amateur sport you should be able to take anything prescribed by a doctor, just as the general population can. But I think we can all see what's going to happen if that becomes that case...

no line needs to be drawn, the peloton(equivalent) needs to self police and say "your peloton sir/madam. is the professional peloton over there, we are the amateur peloton, you are welcome to take your EPO and roids over there in your professional <peloton>.

you have a valid point King Boonen. But it is a theoretical point, a thought experiment point, a zeno's paradox point...

this is a point that the Montreal Quebec want to have ownership over.

We dont need this mission creep and interference in sport. If an athlete wants to dope in B grade, or Elite amateurs, or Cat 2, the peloton needs to stand-up and tell the competitor they can dope in another competition level...
 
Mar 12, 2014
227
0
0
Visit site
WillemS said:
So, as mechanical doping is currently a "hot topic" in cycling, let's add something from another sport, table tennis!

It used to be normal practice in Table Tennis to reapply the used "rubbers" on the table tennis bat ("racket") over and over again using a special "speed glue". The reason was that it increased the speed and spin of the bat tremendously compared to gluing the rubbers only once to the bat. A couple of years ago, the practice got banned with the official reason being that the solvent vapors of the glue were a health hazard. So, the practice of re-fixing the rubbers prior to a match disappeared. (It only works optimally if you re-fix the rubbers approximately 30 minutes before the match, which makes the practice easy to detect.)

Now, sports wouldn't be sports if the players didn't try to find a way to beat the restriction and they did find a way: Spraying chemicals to treat the rubber. Given the definition of the rule that bans the gluing practice, the application of chemicals is also illegal (and rightly so, in my opinion as a former player). However, just as in cycling, it was an open secret that a lot of elite players (estimates range to ~80%) did use said chemicals to enhance their rubbers and, just as in cycling, the international federation didn't seem to care and/or willing to do something against it. I can understand why they didn't really care as the old practice of applying speed glue was considered "normal" and only banned due to the health concerns.

However, the use of said chemicals is illegal and does introduce an additional vector in determining the playing field, as some playing styles benefit more from the practice than others. (It mostly benefits speed and spin playing styles.) Now, after years of looking the other way, the international federation has finally announced that they will start testing bats for said chemicals using a test developed by a chemist. I think the catalyst in the proceedings was the persistence of one of Europe's top players, the German Timo Boll, who, in interviews, criticized the federation over and over again for doing nothing about the practice.

So, "equipment doping" (not really "mechanical") is also a thing in other sports, but I guess we knew that given all the baseball bat controversies in the past and tennis ball rumors in the past decade. It also shows that outspoken sportsman do occasionally make a difference.

Don't forget the ongoing swim-suit controversies. "High-tech" swim-suits that made you swim an aweful lot faster were banned several years ago, but still new swim-suits are being developed within the new rules that enable the swimmer to go faster and faster. With the danger of turning swimming into a competition between swim-suit producers instead of athletes yet again.
 
UKAD covers TUE for the real amateur levels quite logically.*

Declare on the test form, and apply for a retroactive TUE.

I know that phrase has bad connotations, but for tens (hundreds ?) of thousands of amateurs, in the UK who could be tested, managing a advance TUE system is not feasible and a horrible waste of valuable resources.


*Not in a national testing pool, or at a national level event.
 
Digging back a bit.

Vanessa may awarded damages for defamation by FIS, after the CAS overturning of her ban.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-sports/35648512

In clearing the musician last June and overturning her four-year ban, the Court of Arbitration for Sport said qualifying races arranged at short notice in January 2014 were allowed by weak FIS rules and five officials were banned.

The panel said "a number of irregularities" occurred in the "organisation and management" of the four races which raised Vanessa-Mae's racer status.

But FIS admitted that the musician and her entourage "did not in any way fix, contrive or improperly influence the result, progress, conduct or any other aspect" of qualifying races in Slovenia.
 
What to make of what GSW is doing in the NBA or rather to the NBA.

For those who don't follow, Golden State Warriors was just 2 years ago an average team that was doing ok. Then last year they surprisingly became the best team in the league and this year they are the best team of all time, losing just 5 out of nearly 60 games despite playing in the West and therefore having a very hard schedule.

What's ridiculous is they did this despite making no additions. They didn't sign anyone, they didn't draft anyone, all their players who are absolute stars now were already on the team 2 years ago when they were losing 30 games a season. All their players just improved massively. Steph Curry who 3 years ago was already a very good player but yet to make an all star game, is having the greatest season in Basketball history and has already broken several season records despite 1/3 of the season still remaining.

On the other hand, it can't be as clear cut as simply that they found some new gear because they are not a powerful team at all. They don't have any hulks as is common in Basketball who bludgeon their way through defenses. Their players are very thin by basketball standards and win by having the greatest shooting of all time. Then again, obviously drugs can help with that and help with keeping players fit and not tired, though we know the entire NBA is on these kinds of drugs.
 
Re:

The Hitch said:
What to make of what GSW is doing in the NBA or rather to the NBA.

"... obviously drugs can help with that and help with keeping players fit and not tired, though we know the entire NBA is on these kinds of drugs.

Another ludicrous conclusion with no evidence. Don't you get tired of making bland, disingenuous statements with no reason or logic. It is pretty obvious you do not understand the skill set of a basketball player. That skill set involves dribbling, quickness as opposed to speed, great peripheral vision, technique in shooting, position against your check, and floor sense - absolutely none of which can be improved with drugs or PEDs. The NBA is not an endurance sport like cycling. Sure some low level players probably use drugs to keep a mediocre career going. But your general indictment of all players is ridiculous!

Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson finished 1/2 in the 3 point shooting contest at the 2016 All Star game because right now, today they are the best shooters in the NBA. That has nothing to do with drugs. Take a look at Steph Curry's on YouTube as a 13/14/15 year old shooter and you could tell then he would become something special.

Same mantra, same tired arguments!
 
Re: Re:

You could tell Steph Curry would have the greatest single season of all time, 12 years ago? Wow, ain't that something. Its funny how you always knew all these guys would become stars but never said anything.

Even at the beginning of the season, after being named MVP last year, Curry wasn't considered one of the favourites for the award this season. But Robbie Cannuck knew all along it was coming :rolleyes:

BTW are you seriously going to try to tell me there is no endurance aspect to Basketball? So the star players take 10-15 minute rests every game just for fun?
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
dearwiggo.blogspot.com.au
Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
You could tell Steph Curry would have the greatest single season of all time, 12 years ago? Wow, ain't that something. Its funny how you always knew all these guys would become stars but never said anything.

Even at the beginning of the season, after being named MVP last year, Curry wasn't considered one of the favourites for the award this season. But Robbie Cannuck knew all along it was coming :rolleyes:

BTW are you seriously going to try to tell me there is no endurance aspect to Basketball? So the star players take 10-15 minute rests every game just for fun?

Hindsight is so 20/20.
 
Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
You could tell Steph Curry would have the greatest single season of all time, 12 years ago? Wow, ain't that something. Its funny how you always knew all these guys would become stars but never said anything.

Even at the beginning of the season, after being named MVP last year, Curry wasn't considered one of the favourites for the award this season. But Robbie Cannuck knew all along it was coming :rolleyes:

BTW are you seriously going to try to tell me there is no endurance aspect to Basketball? So the star players take 10-15 minute rests every game just for fun?

I just checked the odds, he was 2nd favorite with Durant behind Lebron. That's definitely "one of the favorites" in my book. Their schedule is 4th easiest schedule so far (SAS' schedule is the easiest), the west is not that collectively strong anymore and considering SAS are having their best season by a large margin, this tells to me that the quality of the average team in NBA went down quite considerably in last few seasons.

BTW, Draymond is so massively underrated, nobody mentions him even though he is easily the 2nd most important guy in the team, especially after Ezeli's injury.
 
Re: Re:

RobbieCanuck said:
The Hitch said:
What to make of what GSW is doing in the NBA or rather to the NBA.

"... obviously drugs can help with that and help with keeping players fit and not tired, though we know the entire NBA is on these kinds of drugs.

Another ludicrous conclusion with no evidence. Don't you get tired of making bland, disingenuous statements with no reason or logic. It is pretty obvious you do not understand the skill set of a basketball player. That skill set involves dribbling, quickness as opposed to speed, great peripheral vision, technique in shooting, position against your check, and floor sense - absolutely none of which can be improved with drugs or PEDs. The NBA is not an endurance sport like cycling. Sure some low level players probably use drugs to keep a mediocre career going. But your general indictment of all players is ridiculous!

Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson finished 1/2 in the 3 point shooting contest at the 2016 All Star game because right now, today they are the best shooters in the NBA. That has nothing to do with drugs. Take a look at Steph Curry's on YouTube as a 13/14/15 year old shooter and you could tell then he would become something special.

Same mantra, same tired arguments!
While I don't necessarily agree with Hitch's suspicions, I have to remind you that "doping" != PEDs
And that there are different drugs that improve different things. Both physically and mentally.
Snipers don't take Diazepam to run longer you know.
 
Some points:

1) Neither Curry nor GS came out of nowhere. Curry was an All-American in college, setting scoring records, and was drafted seventh in 2009. He was expected to be good. Now in his seventh season, he already has the top three and the sixth all-time three point seasons, and is no. 25 already on the career list. This despite missing most of one season with ankle problems that plagued his early career. (This is why he's the lowest paid starter on the team; he was considered an injury risk when he signed a long-term contract). So he's been at near-MVP level for several years.

GS has been also very good for the past several years. In 2012-13, they were the conference's sixth seed, and won their first round playoff series. In the second round, they went up against the mighty Spurs, and had the series tied 2-2 before Curry went down again. In 2013-14, they lost in the first round to a very good Clippers team. Their rise coincided with hiring Kerr as HC. He instituted a system very similar to that of the Spurs, which have been one of the consistently best teams in any American pro sport for nearly twenty years.

2) That said, both Curry and GS have clearly taken it up a notch this year. Curry is slightly more accurate from three point range than he was in the past, while taking many more shots, many of them from fairly far beyond the arc. Since he's just 27 years old, though, he should be entering his peak years. And while he's clearly well above the rest of the league in long-distance shooting, that kind of shooting is on the increase, with teams emphasizing it more, and players feeling the need to add it to their repertoire. Curry doesn't actually even lead the NBA in three point %, though the two players ahead of him take far fewer shots than he does, which means they're set up and usually don't have someone in their face. (But one of those guys, J.J Redick, is having a curiously outstanding year of his own, and if Curry's prowess is suspicious, so is Redick's).

3) PEDs can certainly help NBA players. There has been much discussion about how the schedule is too brutal, that the players don't get enough rest during the season, that they're sleep-deprived, their hormonal levels drop, etc. The Warriors and the Spurs, well aware of this, make every effort to rest their starters late in the game when they have a big lead, and sometimes risk losing a game by holding a key player out (the Warriors lost one of their games when Curry didn't play, and another when Green didn't; the Spurs lost a game without Leonard, and got blown out by the Warriors when Duncan wasn't playing). I would assume that lots of players are taking illegal substances to enhance recovery, keep them alert, and so on.

But I don't know any PEDs that would improve accuracy of shooting. The comparison is made to snipers or archers, but in those sports the athlete gets the chance to still his body and choose the exact moment of shooting. In basketball, of course, this is not possible, and one of the things that makes Curry extraordinary is that he is in an even more fluid situation. While most three point shooters set up at the line, and take the shot after the ball is passed to them, Curry takes many shots (like that game winner vs. OKC) off the dribble, which is incredibly difficult to do (this is what allows him to take more shots per game than anyone else, yet still be among the leaders in % made). I honestly don't know a PED that might increase his accuracy in that situation. Amphetamine or a similar drug possibly, but I really doubt it would have that much of an effect. It would keep a player sharp throughout the game, maybe maximize whatever innate talent he has for accuracy, but I don't see that it would enhance accuracy much beyond natural, rested levels.

Keep in mind that a lot of Curry's success is just quickness in avoiding defenders. There are a lot of players, not just in the NBA, but in college and HS, who can hit a fairly high % of shots from three point range, if they're selective and only take the shot when they've set up and there's no defender close. What makes Curry different is mostly his ability to create space so that in effect he's shooting without a defender in his face.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
not a frequent follower of the NBA, so for what it's worht:
those twelve three-pointers from curry the other day to me that performance was right up there with nadal-djokovic 2012 us open.
equally fit and precise at the end of the game as he was at the start of the game.
 
Oct 4, 2011
905
0
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

gooner said:
Benotti69 said:
Somehow i doubt it would be too hard to educate GAA players in what to take and what not to take. Most are 3rd level students.

Like the Monaghan player?

I'm currently on a prescription for Prednisolone. How many of them would know that is banned?

Education is a key aspect. The onus is on the GAA and the Irish Sports Council.

Whether you are amateur or not does not excuse you from knowing what is cheating and what is not. So amateurs don't dope? Of course they do and the GAA players are as likely to dope as any other sport, especially if there is little or no testing.

Some counties put their players through the ringer with training demands and the GAA is as competitive for some counties as professional sports. Some counties are very 'modern' in their approach.

Never said there was no doping.

I agree with the testing on matchday and training but not out of competition with players having daily jobs and education to attend to.
Why..because its ok for guys with Jobs to cheat in the national sport just because they work. The top teams have a very professional approach with most guys having jobs as a pass time with all the time off they need. Its not unreasonable to ask for testing and shouldnt ever be an issue no matter what the sport unless you actually have something to hide
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
Russion speed skater Pavel Kulizhnikov busted for meldonium. World champion sprint and on the 500 and 1k. Already busted once before when he was 18 or whatever.

Are the Russians being targeted?

YES - sadly the current geopolitical atmosphere against Russia indicates that, with the Olympics, and there is the World Cup too in the horizon
 
Feb 24, 2015
241
0
0
Visit site
Eshnar said:
The Hitch said:
You don't agree that doping is rife in the nba?
You should know that I think doping permeates every sport on earth. But I don't necessarily think GS rise is due to that.


I think there is a bit of both aspects to the rise
Firstly there is a coaching aspect to this and a first mover advantage - against a big and strong team (as stated before some of the NBA guys have gone ludicrously big using whatever they have been using) a small nimble and fast guy will create space and time given them an advantage.
Look at messi in soccer, small and nimble against traditionally much bigger defensive players.
Now take said small guy and give him a few extras such as, EPO, Clen, Ephedrine, etc. which help with performance over time (being fresh at the end of a game is vital against bigger slower guys) and also helps with recovery (being able to drop in and out with shorter rests) and you have a recipe for success.
Give the natural talent of the guy in the first place and you have a record setting world beater.
As said before and has been debated a great deal we know the skill level needed in soccer and yet we also know many are on a cocktail of PEDs as well. (unless you really believe ryan giggs was that good at that age because he did yoga!!)
Interesting to see how many of Currys points are scored in the second half of the games he plays in. When opposition teams are tiring and he is obviously not.

Also given that he is a proven injury risk and his current considerable run of fitness is quite something.

All conjecture of course but with a good coach and a good back room staff and a good chemical regime - anything is possible.
 
Feb 6, 2016
1,213
0
0
Visit site
Re:

Red Rick said:
Russion speed skater Pavel Kulizhnikov busted for meldonium. World champion sprint and on the 500 and 1k. Already busted once before when he was 18 or whatever.

Are the Russians being targeted?

Nah, it's just meldonium is more of a thing there than it is anywhere else. Since it's been banned very recently, it's low hanging fruit for the ADAs to pluck; evasion methods won't be that advanced yet.

(I mean, aside from the bull**** moral relativism that I should obviously use to explain this)
 
May 14, 2010
5,303
4
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

hfer07 said:
Red Rick said:
Russion speed skater Pavel Kulizhnikov busted for meldonium. World champion sprint and on the 500 and 1k. Already busted once before when he was 18 or whatever.

Are the Russians being targeted?

YES - sadly the current geopolitical atmosphere against Russia indicates that, with the Olympics, and there is the World Cup too in the horizon

I agree. It's pretty obvious.
 
May 14, 2010
5,303
4
0
Visit site
As far as doping in the NBA goes, they are doping like madmen. And just because we don't know of a drug that would improve shooting accuracy on the fly doesn't mean there isn't one (or more). There is documentary evidence that drugs enhance performance aspects of all sports. F1, chess, you name it. Find a specific skill, or set of skills, and some labs somewhere will develop a drug to enhance it.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
Re:

Maxiton said:
As far as doping in the NBA goes, they are doping like madmen. And just because we don't know of a drug that would improve shooting accuracy on the fly doesn't mean there isn't one (or more). There is documentary evidence that drugs enhance performance aspects of all sports. F1, chess, you name it. Find a specific skill, or set of skills, and some labs somewhere will develop a drug to enhance it.
very true.
even traditional peds=extra training hours, extra confidence, etc.
all adds to shooting accuracy.
then there must be all sorts of illegal shortterm concentration enhancers, whcih coukd benefit tennis and basketball players alike.
 

TRENDING THREADS