Doping in XC skiing

[Ney the Viking]

Not that I don't believe you, but source please? I'd liketo read about it

 

[Cloxxki]

Veerpalu caught for HGH!

He got caught doing something we always knew he was doing!!!

Links please?

Now that HGH is so hot, how much of a performance boost is this supposed to offer after continued use? A totally different kind of doping than juggling blood bags or EPO, I suppose.

 

[python]

this is from a norwegian xc forum i occasionally peruse


Kas Andrus Veerpalu kasutas keelatud hormoone?

http://sport.delfi.ee/news/suusatam...utas-keelatud-hormoone.d?id=43458057&l=wdelfi

 

[neineinei]

The Estonian Ski Association held a press conference today in Tallinn:

Veerpalu tested positive for HGH in an out of competition test in Otepää January 29.
The Estonian Ski Association was informed about the positive test February 12.
Andrus Veerpalu was informed February 15.
Both A- and B-test had too high levels of HGH.

Veerpalu was present at the press conference and he denies any and all doping. Present at the press conference was also Dr. Jüri Laasik of the Estonian antidoping TUE committee.

Dr. Laasik said: " "After a hard training hormone levels in the body increases. HGH levels can rise up to 20 times of what is normal after a training session of 3.5 hours. The sample of Veerpalu was taken after such a session, and we can assume that is why his HGH levels were so high, "he said.

Laasik says that there is still a possibility that the b-sample may be incorrect.

- The legal limit is 1.81 and 1.68, but the b-sample first result was 2.73 and the other 2.0. There is still a possibility that the B-sample will be declared negative, as there was so much difference on the b-sample. It may be there has been an error in the test. "

The quote is Google translate Norwegian to English, quoted directly from http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/04/07/sport/ski/langrenn/andrus_veerpalu/16106477/

 

[Cloxxki]

The Estonian Ski Association held a press conference today in Tallinn:

Veerpalu tested positive for HGH in an out of competition test in Otepää January 29.
The Estonian Ski Association was informed about the positive test February 12.
Andrus Veerpalu was informed February 15.
Both A- and B-test had too high levels of HGH.

Veerpalu was present at the press conference and he denies any and all doping. Present at the press conference was also Dr. Jüri Laasik of the Estonian antidoping TUE committee.

Dr. Laasik said: " "After a hard training hormone levels in the body increases. HGH levels can rise up to 20 times of what is normal after a training session of 3.5 hours. The sample of Veerpalu was taken after such a session, and we can assume that is why his HGH levels were so high, "he said.

Laasik says that there is still a possibility that the b-sample may be incorrect.

- The legal limit is 1.81 and 1.68, but the b-sample first result was 2.73 and the other 2.0. There is still a possibility that the B-sample will be declared negative, as there was so much difference on the b-sample. It may be there has been an error in the test. "

The quote is Google translate Norwegian to English, quoted directly from http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/04/07/sport/ski/langrenn/andrus_veerpalu/16106477/

Thanks you.

But UGH, is there there ever a simple doping case without complexities or doors half-open for athletes to kick in?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

"The sample was taken within 3.5 hours after a tough workout. This may explain the high values​​. According to our calculations, the values ​​of growth hormone can be increased up to 20 times when you have trained hard, says doctor Laasik.

- Although the lab in Cologne claims they can differentiate, the research is so new that we do not trust the results."

 

[neineinei]

The B-sample was tested in Cologne April 5 and 6.

http://sport.postimees.ee/?id=415565

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Andrus is "shocked" and says he has been tested "hundreds of times".

Busted doper 101

 

[Ney the Viking]

why the hell would testers take the test after a hard ride if they know that can lead to bad results?!? Shouldn't they take it in the morning or something then.

Makes no sence to me.

 

[Cloxxki]

why the hell would testers take the test after a hard ride if they know that can lead to bad results?!? Shouldn't they take it in the morning or something then.

Makes no sence to me.

Is this a scientific fact?
And is a sample stable after it's taken, or can values come out differently depending on date of testing?

 

[neineinei]

Here is some more about Dr. Laasiks view on the HGH testing:

http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/595864

(Google translate makes Estonian sentences come out tupsy-turvy.)

""Although different laboratories trying to argue that the methodology makes a distinction between the body and artificially produced ( with the help of banned substances - ed. ) produced by hormones, you can not take it quite truthfully, "said Laasik."

 

[neineinei]

http://www.nrk.no/sport/langrenn/1.7585215

During the Lahti WC in 2001 a list of blood values of the skiers was made for scientific purposes. It was not to be published. Dag Vidar Hanstad (later PhD) had access to this data and he choose to use it in his book "Seier'n er vår" which was published in Norway in 2002, where he included a list of the 12 medalists with abnormal blood values. According to Hanstad there were in all 23 skiers from 13 nations with high blood values. None of them were from Sweden or Norway.

The 12 on his list were:

Johann Mühlegg, Spain. Positive for Darbepoetin Salt Lake City 2002
Andrus Veerpalu, Estonia. Positive for HGH, Otepää 2011
Olga Danilova, Russia. Positive for Darbepoetin Salt Lake City 2002
Yuliya Chepalova, Russia. Positive for EPO Val di Fiemme 2009
Larissa Lazutina, Russia. Positive for Darbepoetin Salt Lake City 2002
Vitalij Danisov, Russia. Retired in 2003. No positive doping tests.
Nina Gavriljuk, Russia. Retired in 2003. No positive doping tests.
Kaisa Varis, Finland. Positive for EPO Val di Fiemme 2003 + as a biathlete in 2008 (but let of the last time on a technicality).
Milla Jauho, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001.
Janne Immonen, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001.
Harri Kirvesniemi, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001.
Mika Myllylä, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001. Admitted in 2011 to have used EPO.

 

[Von Mises]

http://www.nrk.no/sport/langrenn/1.7585215

During the Lahti WC in 2001 a list of blood values of the skiers was made for scientific purposes. It was not to be published. Dag Vidar Hanstad (later PhD) had access to this data and he choose to use it in his book "Seier'n er vår" which was published in Norway in 2002, where he included a list of the 12 medalists with abnormal blood values. According to Hanstad there were in all 23 skiers from 13 nations with high blood values. None of them were from Sweden or Norway.

The 12 on his list were:

Johann Mühlegg, Spain. Positive for Darbepoetin Salt Lake City 2002
Andrus Veerpalu, Estonia. Positive for HGH, Otepää 2011
Olga Danilova, Russia. Positive for Darbepoetin Salt Lake City 2002
Yuliya Chepalova, Russia. Positive for EPO Val di Fiemme 2009
Larissa Lazutina, Russia. Positive for Darbepoetin Salt Lake City 2002
Vitalij Danisov, Russia. Retired in 2003. No positive doping tests.
Nina Gavriljuk, Russia. Retired in 2003. No positive doping tests.
Kaisa Varis, Finland. Positive for EPO Val di Fiemme 2003 + as a biathlete in 2008 (but let of the last time on a technicality).
Milla Jauho, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001.
Janne Immonen, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001.
Harri Kirvesniemi, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001.
Mika Myllylä, Finland. Positive for HES Lahti 2001. Admitted in 2011 to have used EPO.

Though, I have little doubts about Veerpalu´s positive, this righteousness of norwegians is sickening. Come on, norwegians have dominated x-skiing for 20 years during all these dark times. During the Lahti WC in 2001 they won 8 medals, including 4 golds. It just does not make sense ifall around are doped to gills, norwegians can still beat them.

 

[Ney the Viking]

Here is some more about Dr. Laasiks view on the HGH testing:

http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/595864

(Google translate makes Estonian sentences come out tupsy-turvy.)

""Although different laboratories trying to argue that the methodology makes a distinction between the body and artificially produced ( with the help of banned substances - ed. ) produced by hormones, you can not take it quite truthfully, "said Laasik."

Ah, so he is talking out his donkey basically? But if anyone know about the tests and wether there is an actual impact on when they are taken I would like to know. Because it seems really really insane that a dopinbg agency would take samples that they knew couldnt be used.

 

[python]

Ah, so he is talking out his donkey basically? But if anyone know about the tests and wether there is an actual impact on when they are taken I would like to know. Because it seems really really insane that a dopinbg agency would take samples that they knew couldnt be used.

to the bolded...this is a 3d positive in about 18 months after several thousands of tests were negative since 2004 (about 1500 negative tests in the 4 olympics alone)

what you are seeing is not so much the improved test (which i hear is true too) but the improved targeting of athletes - much has been learned about doses, dope administration and drug combinations since the voet car was busted 13 (?) years ago.

and what has been learned is that hgh is administered always OUT of competition. hence, never in comp positives but more visits when in training.

another, thing that has been learned is that hgh is almost always is used with tiny doses of testo or an anabolic steroid (so that t/e stays below 4). so the testers started to use steroid profiling (it's not as formal yet as blood passport) to target athletes.

hence, 3 bull-eyes in several months. dr. laasik is full of crap.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Hey guys, i am new on the forum so Hallo first of all
Very interesting thread, i want to ad something.
In my younger days i was an active cross country skier, never on top, but involved enough to see what's going on.
This might come to you as a shock, but among the top talents the use of drugs already starts at age 14/15. No complicated stuff, but all kind of legal medication and also anabolic stuff is started to be used. The whole drug mentality starts at this age, and if you don't jump on this boat, sooner or later you won't be able to keep up anymore.
So as i know what's going on among juniors, there's just no way i can believe that the pros are clean. No it's impossible. You can be the biggest talent, but if you are not juiced you can't win a ****.

 

[OneRaceWonder]

Though, I have little doubts about Veerpalu´s positive, this righteousness of norwegians is sickening. Come on, norwegians have dominated x-skiing for 20 years during all these dark times. During the Lahti WC in 2001 they won 8 medals, including 4 golds. It just does not make sense ifall around are doped to gills, norwegians can still beat them.

I can see why you think the "righteousness of norwegians is sickening". But why are they never blacklisted or mentioned in XC-skiing? Could it be because they're ahead in other areas than doping (training regime, ski preperations etc), or are they ahead on how to manage a program? Just wondering...why are there never any swedes or norwegians mentioned?

 

[OneRaceWonder]

Hey guys, i am new on the forum so Hallo first of all
Very interesting thread, i want to ad something.
In my younger days i was an active cross country skier, never on top, but involved enough to see what's going on.
This might come to you as a shock, but among the top talents the use of drugs already starts at age 14/15. No complicated stuff, but all kind of legal medication and also anabolic stuff is started to be used. The whole drug mentality starts at this age, and if you don't jump on this boat, sooner or later you won't be able to keep up anymore.
So as i know what's going on among juniors, there's just no way i can believe that the pros are clean. No it's impossible. You can be the biggest talent, but if you are not juiced you can't win a ****.

Hi Bavarianrider!
From the Ruhpolding area if you're a xc-skier? Have any names for us?

 

[Bavarianrider]

QUOTE=OneRaceWonder;483252]Hi Bavarianrider!
From the Ruhpolding area if you're a xc-skier? Have any names for us?[/QUOTE]

Hey,
well i think you understand that i won't throw around names
No i am not directly from the Ruhpolding area, but been there a lot for training and so on.
However, most stories i am refering to are more relating to the " Ski Gymnasium" in Oberhof. They are definetly ahead in terms of doping and so on. I don't say the Bavrians are clean, but they start at an older age and are not quiet as agressive as the ones from former GDR.
Oh boy i could tell you stories. Shocking stories. For example athletes get testosterone from quiet a young age. This causes the effect that they can't control their sexuality. I don't won't to be vulgar here, but for example guys jerking off in the woods right before the start of a race was/is nothing uncommon. There was a commom phrase among cross country skiers (probably still is) "There's no place with more drugs and sex then a ski gymnasium" (High school)
I know a few bavarian athlets who are in the world cup today. Magdalena Neuner for example. Lovely girl. A one in a million talent. Remember seeing her for the first time when she was eleven. And she was already kicking asses. Do i belive she is clean today? I would love to, but i just can't imagine it. I mean if the whole field was clean, she would be dominating like she does now. But against drugged competitors ( and there should be much doubt most are) you can't win while being 100% clean. Nobody can.
However, i know Josef Wenz quiet well. He 's a sprinter and has won one world cup. While i wouldn't bet my life on it, i still do belive that he is more or less clean. But that's why he can only be succesfull in races like Düsseldorf. Once the track is a bit more difficult he can't keep up with the front runners.

 

[Von Mises]

I can see why you think the "righteousness of norwegians is sickening". But why are they never blacklisted or mentioned in XC-skiing? Could it be because they're ahead in other areas than doping (training regime, ski preperations etc), or are they ahead on how to manage a program? Just wondering...why are there never any swedes or norwegians mentioned?

Only case what I remeber was Bente Skari who suddenly and without any warning retired. I dont know about Norwegian papers, but in many other countries there were speculations, that Skari was caught and his dad (Odd Martinsen), who was chairman of FIS x-skiing commitee silenced the case.

But this was just a rumour, dont know was it true or not. But storys about better training regime or higher cadence are hard to believe when you constantly beat known and proven dopers.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Interesting video on Doping in 1994

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QET6uTxCAr4

 

[neineinei]

Though, I have little doubts about Veerpalu´s positive, this righteousness of norwegians is sickening. Come on, norwegians have dominated x-skiing for 20 years during all these dark times. During the Lahti WC in 2001 they won 8 medals, including 4 golds. It just does not make sense ifall around are doped to gills, norwegians can still beat them.

The fact that none of the Norwegians (or Swedes) had high blood values does of course not prove that they weren't doping. Jari Isometsä is not on the list. He came in second on the 10 km + 10 km combined pursuit, but was then found positive for HES, and disqualified. Virpi Kuitonen isn't on the list either. She was caught for HES after the relay, but she got to keep her gold medal from the 5 km + 5 km combined pursuit. HES was believed to have been used by the Finns to mask blood doping with EPO. Mika Myllylä admitted in court in March this year to have used EPO. (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Ex...mits+to+having+used+EPO+hormone/1135252601701) Some (Finns) have suggested that someone in FIS knew that there would be an effective HES test, and that these someones were Norwegians and Swedes who informed their teams, while the Finns were kept in the dark. This has never been substansiated.

Norway won 8 cross country medals in Lahti: 4 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze. If the Finns hadn't been caught Norway would have been second in the mens relay and third in the womens, and the medal count would have been 3 gold, 2 silver , 3 bronze. Jari Isometsää was caught fairly early in the championship, and it seemingly had a somewhat restraining effect on the Finns who knew they had used HES.

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0101/ss.htm

 

[Ingenerius]

Only case what I remeber was Bente Skari who suddenly and without any warning retired. I dont know about Norwegian papers, but in many other countries there were speculations, that Skari was caught and his dad (Odd Martinsen), who was chairman of FIS x-skiing commitee silenced the case.

But this was just a rumour, dont know was it true or not. But storys about better training regime or higher cadence are hard to believe when you constantly beat known and proven dopers.

In the 90's it is a fact that the norwegians had far superior skis than all other nations, which probably is the biggest reason why they were competitive during the worst EPO years. Sweden didn't have a chance during those years.

Bente Skari dominated after the ski advantage was gone, but still during the years where doping as much as you want were practised. (The possibility of getting caught wasn't really a factor until Lahti 2001 when testing started to improve) She is the norwegian I suspect the most of doping by far. The only reasons I can think of that she was clean and could beat really big(and proven) dopers, was that her classical technique was perfect(I think best of all time, men and women) and far better than all competitors, and that the competitors was much closer to beat her during the important competitions (olympics and championships) than during the regular world cup races. But it is still a stretch.

As mentioned the retirement was a bit weird, why would she retire when the testing got better and it would be harder for the dopers (There was some years to the next medal opportunity though). And why retire when she finally started to win in skating too. How she could win in skating undoped is also a question since she had horrible skate technique, even though she only won after her technique improved a bit, and she never won any important competitions in skating. So I think it exists a possibility(small) that she was clean, but I suspect her the most.

I believe the reason why the norwegians are competitive today is because the field is cleaner today, testing is much better, and it is not so easy to dope in huge quantities, which gives a chance to talented skiiers. At least I hope so. I think its a good sign that the swedish are competitive as well. And norwegians do lose when the dopers dope as shown by Heikkinen in the world championships.

 

[Bavarianrider]

In the 90's it is a fact that the norwegians had far superior skis than all other nations, which probably is the biggest reason why they were competitive during the worst EPO years. Sweden didn't have a chance during those years.

Bente Skari dominated after the ski advantage was gone, but still during the years where doping as much as you want were practised. (The possibility of getting caught wasn't really a factor until Lahti 2001 when testing started to improve) She is the norwegian I suspect the most of doping by far. The only reasons I can think of that she was clean and could beat really big(and proven) dopers, was that her classical technique was perfect(I think best of all time, men and women) and far better than all competitors, and that the competitors was much closer to beat her during the important competitions (olympics and championships) than during the regular world cup races. But it is still a stretch.

As mentioned the retirement was a bit weird, why would she retire when the testing got better and it would be harder for the dopers (There was some years to the next medal opportunity though). And why retire when she finally started to win in skating too. How she could win in skating undoped is also a question since she had horrible skate technique, even though she only won after her technique improved a bit, and she never won any important competitions in skating. So I think it exists a possibility(small) that she was clean, but I suspect her the most.

I believe the reason why the norwegians are competitive today is because the field is cleaner today, testing is much better, and it is not so easy to dope in huge quantities, which gives a chance to talented skiiers. At least I hope so. I think its a good sign that the swedish are competitive as well. And norwegians do lose when the dopers dope as shown by Heikkinen in the world championships.

Sorry but that huge ski advantage thing is bull****.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Another strong indication that biathletes are well inferior to XC skiers. Anna-Carin Olofsson-Zidek was the fastest or second fastest biathlete from the mid 00's to last season. These were her results in XC.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.h...discipline=ALL&position=&place=&Submit=Search

She switched to biathlon because she wasn't competitive.