Doping in XC skiing

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I don't think the Norwegians are performing well in biathlon beacuse they are juicing more then the rest. I think today biathlon is a pretty even playing field in that terms.
At least i didn't see any outstanding performances which would immidiatly indicate a drug advantage.
It's not like they were totally dominating in the running times.
 
May 13, 2009
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Running times themselves weren't much different from others, but seeing the same athletes coming out on top day after day reminds me a bit of watching the Gewiss train. Of course I can't say they're doping, for that I know too little about the sport.
 
Cobblestones said:
Running times themselves weren't much different from others, but seeing the same athletes coming out on top day after day reminds me a bit of watching the Gewiss train. Of course I can't say they're doping, for that I know too little about the sport.

Well i guess the question is not if they are doping, it's more how much are they doping compared to the other nations.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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the sceptic said:
Doping or not. It cant be good for the sport. I dont want it to turn into cross country skiing.

It wont. Svendsen isn't even the best male biathlete. Fourcade is, and will remain on top unless Emil seriously improves his standup shooting. Tora will soon retire and there are a few girls who could potentially challenge her next year if they improve their shooting or if she has a less stellar season. Norway have some impressive talents in the pipeline but so do Germany and Russia.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/dahlies-ilska-ett-bedrovligt-uttalande/

though saltin did not implicate him directly, bjorn dählie, of course, did not like the above-mentioned statement by saltin that 10-15 y ago a skier could not win wc races without doping.

in the video, he expressed his anger several times and brought forward an old argument ‘it’s not like i was behind 2 minutes one day and suddenly winning the next…i was near the top season long.’

getting back to biathlon… in another interesting recent interview, pichler, when poked that his girls are still too slow compared to the likes of gössner, responded in his usual direct manner, ‘only doping can improved my girls speed my a full minute’.

i don’t think he implied that others are doping (perhaps he did ?), rather that his team runs at the limit of their potential clean. Still the statement, even if true, came across as a tad tactless, particularly given the adverse environment he’s facing everyday.

btw, in all seriousness, he compared zaitseva's talent to tora's.
 
the sceptic said:
Doping or not. It cant be good for the sport. I dont want it to turn into cross country skiing.

Let's be honest, biathlon world championchips titles are not really that worthy today. I mean they take place very year and they have 6 events now which all require mor eor less the exact same skills.
There's simply such an invasion of medlas handed out that they are more or less neglectable.
Next year nobody will remember who won which event.
 
python said:
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/dahlies-ilska-ett-bedrovligt-uttalande/

though saltin did not implicate him directly, bjorn dählie, of course, did not like the above-mentioned statement by saltin that 10-15 y ago a skier could not win wc races without doping.

in the video, he expressed his anger several times and brought forward an old argument ‘it’s not like i was behind 2 minutes one day and suddenly winning the next…i was near the top season long.’

getting back to biathlon… in another interesting recent interview, pichler, when poked that his girls are still too slow compared to the likes of gössner, responded in his usual direct manner, ‘only doping can improved my girls speed my a full minute’.

i don’t think he implied that others are doping (perhaps he did ?), rather that his team runs at the limit of their potential clean. Still the statement, even if true, came across as a tad tactless, particularly given the adverse environment he’s facing everyday.

btw, in all seriousness, he compared zaitseva's talent to tora's.

I think he did, he has done that before.
The problem with Pichler is his credibility.

I mean he's always somewhat indirectly saying the others are doping.
Pichler himself has already coached at many places.
Sweden, Sachenbacher's personal coach, now Russia.
Somehow it is hard to believe that if there's doping (which we must assume) in biathlon/nordic skiing, that Pichler himself was never involved in it or at least didn't now about it.

Pichlers atheletes are always clean and the rest isn't. A bit hard to belive
 
python said:
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/dahlies-ilska-ett-bedrovligt-uttalande/

though saltin did not implicate him directly, bjorn dählie, of course, did not like the above-mentioned statement by saltin that 10-15 y ago a skier could not win wc races without doping.

in the video, he expressed his anger several times and brought forward an old argument ‘it’s not like i was behind 2 minutes one day and suddenly winning the next…i was near the top season long.’

getting back to biathlon… in another interesting recent interview, pichler, when poked that his girls are still too slow compared to the likes of gössner, responded in his usual direct manner, ‘only doping can improved my girls speed my a full minute’.

i don’t think he implied that others are doping (perhaps he did ?), rather that his team runs at the limit of their potential clean. Still the statement, even if true, came across as a tad tactless, particularly given the adverse environment he’s facing everyday.

btw, in all seriousness, he compared zaitseva's talent to tora's.
But a girl like Gössner was destroying fields with her ski speed ever since youth. Yes, she stepped up big-time this season compared to last, but she had health problems with surgery to fix intestinal knotting during the season build-up then, and compared to 2010-11 she's made pretty normal progress. There simply aren't any of the Russian girls who had shown that same kind of skiing prowess as juniors, so you can't really tell whether he's making any accusations or not. Besides, Gössner isn't the one that's winning everything. She's outskiing everybody, sure, but then missing a bunch of targets... which means she then has to ski harder to make the time up, and can't conserve energy like some others. Her style has a very high turnover, but it's a lot more efficient than Berger's, and Berger has been consistently about the 4th quickest on the World Cup, with Gössner, Mäkäräinen and Domracheva typically the top 3. Maybe we can see what Podchufarova is made of, she comfortably outskied Dahlmeier at the Junior Worlds, and Dahlmeier made a big impact on her WC debut. But we've already seen Hilde Fenne and Laura Dahlmeier at the World Cup level, whereas Podchufarova has yet to show.

Perhaps one of the Russian problems is that they are too deep in not-quite-good-enough talent that they have too many people there to take the risks on youngsters; let's face it, Fenne's first introduction to the Norwegian relay in Hochfilzen was as a stop-gap solution with Flatland not ready to return, and in all likelihood had she not been so impressive in that race she'd just have rotated out for somebody like Eckhoff or Ringen for the next relay while they worked out how their relay would shape up; Dahlmeier was included as a gamble by the Germans because with Neuner retiring, Lang not ready to return at the top level, and having sent Tina Bachmann home after Ruhpolding and having not fulfilled their IBU-Cup racing quota for most of the season they didn't have many race-ready competitors to stand in, so when Horchler had an attack of the poor form at the Worlds Dahlmeier was the only other woman in the squad (they had said they might pick a 6th based on the IBU Cup at Martell, but the best German there - by far - was Karolin Horchler, who is just as inexperienced as Dahlmeier). Russia just don't have that need because they have depth... however what they have are a bunch of slow skiers who can shoot well, with a bunch of half-decent skiers who can shoot well as the change of pace. And with big successes of some experienced names on the IBU Cup for them, there's little reason to take the risk on youngsters. Then again, with the A-team heading to Sochi to train for Sochi/Khantiy, they're sending a B-squad to Oslo. The men's team is led by Makoveev and returnee Tcherezov, but the women's team is mostly built around old faces like Iourieva and Boulygina; why not try the likes of Podchufarova there?

The only member of the current Russian squad who has shown real ski speed (that we can compare to the likes of Gössner as a prospect) as a youngster was Sleptsova (well, maybe not, but I've not been following the sport anywhere near long enough to remember Zaitseva as a junior). But she's had surgery this season, is off form, and Pichler himself has suggested she doped in the past. Now, if in four years' time Uliana Kaisheva is setting fastest ski times à la Gössner, it won't seem so strange, since she's mutilating the Youth fields with her ski speed right now. But if girls like Shumilova or Yurlova (hell, even Vilukhina) started skiing with Berger and Solemdal, let alone Kaisa, Darya and Miri, then of course the red flags would be raised: because they've never shown the likelihood of doing so. Remember how many eyebrows were raised by Solemdal last year? Going from finishing 3 minutes down with 2 penalties in the sprint at Khanty in 2011 to outskiing Magdalena Neuner at Östersund a few months later? That.

As for Zaitseva/Berger, it's not so fanciful as you might think, but Berger is 3 years younger, which counts for a lot when it comes to recovery, and Berger is much better at staying at peak level. Let's not forget when complaining about the repetitiousness of the results that before the season everybody was anticipating Domracheva would walk away with it comfortably.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Pichler has previously commented that Russia lacks top talent. He said 'we don't have a super talent like Neuner'.

He also claimed the great majority are clean now so he's actually not that prone to accusations without evidence.
 
Bavarianrider said:
Slepstova had one year when she was almost on Neuner level.

And then Iaroschenko and Iourieva tested positive, a whole bunch of Russians started performing at a lower level than previous, and Pichler called out Sleptsova saying "what happened to your ski speed?".

Pichler apparently believes Sleptsova is a real high level talent, regardless of those previous suspicions. But he also is treating her with kid gloves for the moment.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Sleptsova's coach has been quite critical of Pichler's training, saying he overtrained Svetlana and ignored the fact she was hampered by an injury in the off-season.
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
He thinks Zaitseva is the most talented russian.

Of the women in the World Cup squad right now, he's probably right (still). She's certainly got the best mental capacity to deal with a high pressure final shoot. Even Vilukhina can melt down at that (Antholz relay). Still a bit surprised at them putting Zaitseva on leg 2 and Vilukhina on anchor in the relay, when Vilukhina is on record stating she doesn't like to take leg 4 and Zaitseva was on better form.

Kaisheva and Podchufarova look like exciting prospects, however.
 
Swedish television is showing that Finnish doping documentary today at 2200. Just a reminder to those who haven't seen the docu and have access to SVT.

I think they cut out some bits of the program. I'm going to have a look and see what parts they removed. Also, the texting might be a bit better than the one on the Norwegian version I saw.
 
I couldn't join back in due to still having to watch biathlon worlds footage. Now I have.
What struck me most : central Europe with tiny amount of skiers (skiing is an elite thing, let's face it, and biathlon is much worse), keeping up with anyone they like.
Russian women especially, starting strong, and fading. Have clean athletes ever faded that badly, a whole team of them. Much ado about their altitude training. Is that the typical excuse for elevated and fast dropping blood values, or do they really, really think it's soooo good for reaching peak form?
Goessner I have not doubts of. Her skiing is indeed like Berger's but techincally better.
Domracheva being trembling on her feet a last lap vs Berger making it look like an XC sprint race for intensity (sooo much faster relativey than her first 4 laps), makes me suspect Berger more. Het shooting has improved to insane quality (Austrians enjoyed great shooting when they were swapping best ski times between each other a few years ago, same guys skiing there still).
Berger, very inefficient. Willpower is hyped, you cannot will yourself to be fast. It's mosty physical. In 100+ biathlon elite women, why is no-one else skiing that way even with bad shooting? At least Domracheva's skiing is impeccable technically (except for last lap, she does tire physically), and she was a fast junior.
Zaitseva, I think is too old school to trust. All about training by herself, own coaches, etc. Never a good sign. And he skiing looks very unimpressive. Middle of the road.
Seriously, will they please stop talking about the guy who had the bad accident and had to recover so long? I am sick and tired of all the injured athletes who have miracle quick recovery from nasty injuries, and start performing at world record level. I've seen it with many key performances in various sports. Starting in '88 Calgary. Nasty injuries are THE short cut way to legendary golds.
Kuzmina became Slovak because Russia wouldn't put her on the A team, right, too much competition locally? Why is she so good then? Will powerrrrr. Small team, own plan, etc. Suuuuure. Central Europe has an outspoken reputation of being under the radar. Popular for record races and training camps now.
 
What do Russian XC'ers know that they are not telling the biathletes? Or do they biathletes have even stiffer opposition from Svendsen/Fourcade making them look relatively weak?
When I watch XC, I shake my head over the Russians. So blatant. One got popped over 50%, missed a race. Just refuses to tire in races.
Russians in XC lose nothing to Cologna in distance, and can now beat Northug.
Which Russian can feel confident taking on Svendsen or Fourcade? They may succeed at times, but it feels like a different type of fast to me.
It could also mean that Norwegian/French biathletes are just too advanced. Russian biathlon may lack medical sophictication.
I'd be surprised if the Poles/Czechs have any decent data in their blood passports.

And Bjoerdalen is now a Brentjens. Which is worrisome.
Lives in AUSTRIA. Had a few weaker years. Finding form back...sounds like an Austrian real-time fairytale, doesn't it?

Ferry at least is fading with age. Used to be a consistent fastest skier, and was at the time very outspoken anti-doping, to the point of being reprimanted to tune it down a bit.
What happened to bald young Bergman? Long career, one miracle year. Just too odd.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Its hard to trust Zaitseva. Former doper, now 34 years old and suddenly finds 1 minute just in time for the world championships.

Pidrushna also had a super fast skiing time on the sprint, way faster than anything else shes done this year, and then faded badly for the rest of the championships.
 
May 19, 2010
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Jul 21, 2012
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Will be difficult to just dismiss Saltin as a bitter hater like Kyrö if he is one of the sources to this program. Looking forward to this.
 
Jul 15, 2012
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Blood values in the 90's, huh?
What about medals in the 90's?

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1087121&postcount=672
a0b5lw.jpg
 
Mar 4, 2010
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I wonder what compelled SVT to investigate doping in XC skiing in the 1990's? Did someone e-mail them all the publically available blood data from the 90's and insinuate that Dæhlie et al are frauds?

:cool: