Doping in XC skiing

[figgelura]

Torebear! At first my intention was not to coment your argumentation about Saltins Mental Health because its just not the right forum. I Think its great when people with different opinions can argue back and forth with perhaps some namedroping in all good sports. But when you say Saltin is suffering from frontal lobe dementia and caling Pythons behaviour is like a Pedofile you crossed a line that i dont Think suits this discussion. This thread is widespread, discussed and reffered to in many smaller forums all over the World.

You post yourself as quite an expert in frontal lobe dementia and says we cant listen to what Bengt Saltin has to say. If we should take a look at the symptoms it must in your expert opiniun state a person suffering from FTD has to have lost the memory completely from the last 30 years.

Symptoms related to the three types of FTD include:

•Behavioral variant frontotemporal dementia (bvFTD) takes its greatest toll on personality and behavior. It may begin with subtle changes that may be mistaken for depression. As bvFTD progresses people often develop disinhibition, a striking loss of restraint in personal relations and social life.


•Primary progressive aphasia (PPA) affects language skills in early stages, but often also affects behavior as it advances. The two chief forms of PPA have somewhat different symptoms:
◦In semantic dementia, people speak easily, but their words convey less and less meaning. They tend to use broad general terms, such as "animal" when they mean "cat." Language comprehension also declines.
◦In progressive nonfluent aphasia, people lose their ability to generate words easily, and their speech becomes halting, "tongue-tied" and ungrammatical. Ability to read and write also may be impaired.


•FTD movement disorders affect certain involuntary, automatic muscle functions. These disorders also may impair language and behavior. The two primary FTD movement disorders are:
◦Corticobasal degeneration (CBD), which causes shakiness, lack of coordination, and muscle rigidity and spasms.
◦Progressive supranuclear palsy (PSP), which causes walking and balance problems, frequent falls and muscle stiffness, especially in the neck and upper body. It also affects eye movements.

http://www.alz.org/dementia/fronto-temporal-dementia-ftd-symptoms.asp

Well Torebear. Even if you are right about Saltin there is no problem with his memory. Trying to undermine someones arguments with caling out for menthal Health problems is the lowest form of argumentation and is not worthy in this forum. Thats my opiniun.

 

[jens_attacks]

She had lab values that exceeded limits. Blood clots that required surgery, twice. Explanations Randall herself offered ran the gamut or every possible reason and medical condition and were even contradictory. First dehydration, then altitude adjustment because she'd been flying extensively just before, then altitude adjustment because her home is at sea level. Then birth control. Then she claimed diagnoses of the two genetic conditions that cause naturally high Hgb levels - Factor V Leiden and May-Thurner syndrome. She has BOTH. But never a medical exemption for any of this. In spite of rigorous annual physicals and routine monitoring by US Team docs.

kikken just like bjorgen, ricco, muhlegg is hardcore. a charlie sheen on skis
cross country girls and boys are charging like mother***ers out there.

sochi will be such a blood bath.
i just hope norwegians saint will be crushed by mother russia

 

[Dazed and Confused]

VG published the results from a poll yesterday.

# Do you believe that some of the Norwegian athletes who are going to Sochi are using, or have been using, doping? 32,3 % answered yes, 21,7 % I don't know, 46 % no.

NSF president Erik Røste voiced his disbelife at the numbers, claiming other polls had given very different numbers. The other day NTB had a poll with a slightly different question, and there more than 50 % (56,9) had said they were certain the Norwegians going to Sochi are clean.

http://www.vg.no/sport/ol-2014/artikkel.php?artid=10121584

It would appear the "non corrupt Norwegian" myth is taking a major hit.

 

[Velo1ticker]

kikken just like bjorgen, ricco, muhlegg is hardcore. a charlie sheen on skis
cross country girls and boys are charging like mother***ers out there.

sochi will be such a blood bath.
i just hope norwegians saint will be crushed by mother russia

You do know that Russia have not fielded a clean skier for over 50 years. Sochi is just like the Olympics in 1936 except it is Putin and not Hitler. Heil Putin and praise to the dopers.
I sorry I can not say anything intelligent to a jellyfish, I quit!

 

[Discgear]

You do know that Russia have not fielded a clean skier for over 50 years. Sochi is just like the Olympics in 1936 except it is Putin and not Hitler. Heil Putin and praise to the dopers.
I sorry I can not say anything intelligent to a jellyfish, I quit!

Not a clean skier from Russia in 50 years? Thats a lot of prejudice, even for a Norwegian xc-ski fan.

 

[python]

I started from the beginning and trying to keep up. A couple of modest thoughts, if you'll indulge me. I may not know what I'm talking about...just thoughts.

• Considering that all these lab values, the standards set, interpretation and analysis, depends on historical data and testing when blood-doping/performance enhancement was happening with little notice and inconsistent standards, it seems impossible to get an accurate picture and establish reliable standards to work with.
I mean, it would really take empirical hard data that came with complete truth from the athletes. It might be realized that the standards for "clean" athletes are based on "dirty" performance levels and data.

• I think a conversation about this isn't complete without including US women. The men's side of things don't do much internationally. But the women! Not only remarkable performance, strangely erratic and inconsistent, but the background is unbelievable. Literally, unbelievable.
In the context of the international field, the US's Randall is performing right smack in the middle of the pack that may/may not be getting away with a little something. And better, too. She's in the group of women this forum is looking at. In FIS ranking lists, she's right in there above and below Norwegians and Finns.
US News: "The *****y Alaskan with pink-tinged blond hair is the fastest cross-country skier in the world – and the most decorated U.S. female cross-country skier in history."

She wins one and is 15th in the next. Then wins, then 20th. Then podium again. Really, does one's performance vary that much, at the same venue, or in the same month? Or is it about who else is entered that day?

She had lab values that exceeded limits. Blood clots that required surgery, twice. Explanations Randall herself offered ran the gamut or every possible reason and medical condition and were even contradictory. First dehydration, then altitude adjustment because she'd been flying extensively just before, then altitude adjustment because her home is at sea level. Then birth control. Then she claimed diagnoses of the two genetic conditions that cause naturally high Hgb levels - Factor V Leiden and May-Thurner syndrome. She has BOTH. But never a medical exemption for any of this. In spite of rigorous annual physicals and routine monitoring by US Team docs.

News quotes -
2006: "I knew that with all the running around we did getting here and into the village earlier this week, that not getting fluid was a problem for me," Randall said.
2006: Kikkan Randall of the United States said her high reading was a simple matter of adjusting to altitude after living at sea level.
2006: "I was unconcerned. I knew I was clean," Randall said. "I knew I was dehydrated. Her coach, Trond Nystad, agreed. "I think it was a bigger thing in the media than it was for us," he said. "The funny thing is that the negative attention came from the U.S. where I think journalists are uneducated on the issue. In Europe they know this isn't a big deal.
2009: Randall attributed it to dehydration from travel.
APU Nordic Ski Center director: Virtually all of the athletes who were suspended prior to the Olympics were at altitude for the final World Cup races just prior to the Olympics.
http://jenex.com/news/26-news

It bears mentioning that her training regime included a custom altitude chamber built in her parents' home, and she won races at high altitude (1800m).
Both Randall and teammate Holly Brooks are 31. Older and performing at a higher level than in their teens and 20s. In a cardio sport.
Brooks' story is a happily-ever-after fairy tale. She had a short unremarkable competition career early on, quit, went to college, got married, became a high school coach and then got a coaching job with the APU Nordic Ski Center. The coach will be a two-time Olympian after Sochi.

Maybe they're just blossoming late? It might be that the US women are truly exceptionally talented and speculation is unfair. Perhaps they deserve huge credit for simple hard work and drive.
Any thoughts here?

welcome to the forum !

a very interesting and fact-based 1st post. your observations of randall broadly coincide with mine.. that post i wrote a while back. since then imo her performances were more in line with what i would expect - a skating sprint specialist excelling in skating sprints. last weekend she was 'only' 5th in sprints final in toblach. yesterday she arrived at sochi and posted some happy pics of herself and some other american gals. i wish her all the best and, frankly, i would not mind her winning the individual gold over marit.

if she does, will that be a 'natural' win ? may be, but we can't be sure. her PAST blood values spread and a myriad of explanations will have me open-minded yet cautious.

on another note - regarding that funny pic of putin atop a bear - i don't see at all norway crushed in at least 1/2 of the xc competition. their kvinner lead by the muscle-laden marit, will crush others in almost all disciplines. but i am far from sure the norwegian men will meet their home media's hyping...the 1st surprise is likely to be delivered this sunday in a skiathlon, then in individual and team sprints... will have to wait and see, but i predict that a bunch of factors, some likely chemical, will combine to against the norges. i sense that in sochi cologna, hellner, poltaranin, jonsson, legkov, vyleg, ustiugov, kriukov and several others will equal or better the best of their man.

 

[jens_attacks]

You do know that Russia have not fielded a clean skier for over 50 years. Sochi is just like the Olympics in 1936 except it is Putin and not Hitler. Heil Putin and praise to the dopers.
I sorry I can not say anything intelligent to a jellyfish, I quit!

 

[the sceptic]

How does someone who looks like that also have the best endurance? not normal. Should get destroyed by Johaug in long races.

 

[TomasC]

From time to time this photo surfaces and I always think at first glance that the arm is photoshopped. Then when I realize it's not...
Cutie!

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Bjorgen would have been an excellent tennis player.

Only Stosur, Serena and Nadal have bigger biceps.

 

[skjoldur]

last weekend she was 'only' 5th in sprints final in toblach. i would not mind her winning the individual gold over marit.
if she does, will that be a 'natural' win ? may be, but we can't be sure. her PAST blood values spread and a myriad of explanations will have me open-minded yet cautious.

"Only 5th"...I know, right? Two wins back-to-back in three weeks in CZE and POL before Toblach. 15th in the other formats.
Sadly, once the bar is set that high, we expect them to win everything all the time and wonder when they don't. A consequence of athlete doping.

What an odd twist of fate to be cursed with rare serious medical conditions that are performance-enhancing, with sequelae that's desirable and the exact same thing that blood-doping hopes to produce. Makes you wonder how many elite athletes have these conditions. That would be a worthy medical study.

But. It's curious that abnormally high Hgb levels that exceed performance standards return to "normal" levels, out of competition. I know nothing about Factor V Leiden and May-Thurner syndrome. Given that the human body had a dramatically higher oxygen-carrying hemoglobin level as "normal," one wouldn't expect it to drop. It would seem to me that that would cause oxygen deficiency and perfusion issues and be a medical crisis, in and of itself, for that individual. The human body goes for equilibrium above all and won't tolerate that much variance.

Not exactly the same, but related. Sherpa adaptation to high altitude and oxygen efficiency.

University of Utah School of Medicine and Qinghai University Medical School...found that thousands of years ago, Tibetan highlanders began to genetically adapt to prevent polycythemia (a process in which the body produces too many red blood cells in response to oxygen deprivation), as well as other health abnormalities such as swelling of the lungs and brain (edema) and hypertension of the lung vessels leading to eventual respiratory failure.
Even at elevations of 14,000 feet above sea level or higher, where the atmosphere contains much less oxygen than at sea level, most Tibetans do not overproduce red blood cells and do not develop lung or brain complications. The researchers found evidence that this might be related to at least 10 genes, two of which are specific genes strongly associated with hemoglobin, a molecule that transports oxygen in the blood.
"What's unique about Tibetans is they don't develop high red blood cells counts," said Prchal, also a senior author on the study who has done research in Tibet.
-- Casey Kazan/University of Utah

 

[skjoldur]

Good article

OUTSIDE ONLINE
10/22/2013
Excerpt.
What the Heck is the Biological Passport, Anyway?

Recently, and for the first time, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) released a summary of drug testing data for all Olympic-movement sports in 2012. The table- and data-laden report isn't much fun to read, but for people involved in anti-doping campaigns, it was a gift. Prior to this report, comprehensive testing statistics have been publically unavailable—or at least very hard to track down.

The most interesting section of the report covered data about the athlete biological passport, which debuted in 2009 as a next-generation test with the potential to revolutionize anti-doping. And in 2012, according to the report, drug testers collected more than 18,000 samples for biological passport analysis, almost three times the number collected in 2010. At the same time, the report also shows that traditional drug tests are on the decline.

Ok, so what is it?
In simple terms, the biological passport is a series of blood or urine screens taken over an extended period of time (like several years) and analyzed for the effects, rather than the presence, of drug use. In theory, the passport has three components, or modules: one that looks at blood doping, one that looks at steroid use, and one that looks at manipulation of the endocrine system (think Human Growth Hormone). Currently, the World Anti-Doping Agency has only issued guidelines for the blood module, but said last month that the steroid module would go live by year's end. The endocrine module is still in development.

Passport analysts then look for two things: the percentage in the sample of immature red blood cells, called reticulocytes, and the volume of mature red blood cells. (There is also a third measurement, referred to as an OFF-score, which is a ratio of those two numbers.) In healthy, non-doping humans, none of those values change a great deal. But in doped athletes they do. To understand why, you’ve gotta understand dopers.

All dopers in endurance sports are obsessed with red blood cells. Red blood cells—or more specifically, a protein on the cells called hemoglobin—carry oxygen to muscles. The more RBCs an athlete has, the faster and longer they can race. There are several ways to blood dope, but the two most common involve using synthetic erythropoietin, or EPO, or transfusing blood. EPO and drugs like it work by telling the body to increase its red blood cell production. Blood transfusions are slightly more complicated. When an athlete removes some of his blood, his red blood cell count drops and his body rushes to make more cells in compensation. Like EPO, that makes his reticulocyte percentage jumps. But once those reticulocytes grow up into mature red blood cells, he transfuses his blood back in—say, on a rest day of a grand tour—and suddenly he’s got a bunch more red blood cells than the guy trying to hold his wheel.

Is the blood module reliable?
Somewhat. For the passport to trigger a ban, testers like to show a pattern of manipulation. One instance of a high reticulocyte percentage could point to EPO, but also a recent trip to altitude; likewise, a higher-than-normal red blood cell percentage might mean a transfusion or that an athlete is dehydrated. To avoid these problems, athletes are instructed to say whether they’ve recently trained at altitude, and testers are not supposed to collect samples within two hours of a training session or a race. In an email, Dr. Wolfgang Jelkmann, Director of the Institute of Physiology at Germany’s University of Luebeck, who has studied the blood module, called these “methodological weaknesses,” that result in “a relative high risk of false-positive results.”

But given the risk of false positives, the analysis is made deliberately insensitive. The current standard is a 1-in1,000 sensitivity, meaning the passport will only result in a false positive in 1 out of 1,000 analyses (over a series of samples, that means the risk of false positive becomes very, very low) but it will also yield many false negatives. A more sensitive analysis—a standard that would yield 1 false positive in 100 tests—would catch more cheaters. Testers may use this standard when deciding which athletes to target with drug tests, but it is the 1-in-1,000 sensitivity that is used to enforce doping bans.

But there are skeptics. In 2011, Floyd Landis told reporters that athletes could take micro doses of EPO while transfusing blood and avoid triggering passport violations. A small dose of EPO taken during a transfusion flushes from of the body within hours and boosts reticulocyte percentages just enough to keep the off-score within allowable limits. Other riders have said the passport is ineffective.

Dr. Daniel Eichner, head of Salt Lake City’s Sports Medicine Research and Testing Laboratory, which handled more than 700 passport screens last year, says the current blood module will easily capture “gross manipulators,” people who are either inexperienced or careless when they dope, but doesn’t work as well on sophisticated cheaters, particularly those with access to regular blood screens by their own doctors.

 

[roundabout]

Randall is a free sprint specialist. She is suspicious and has improved her distance skiing, but still a specialist.

http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/ath...e=SP&position=3&place=&Submit=Search&limit=50

Not a single classic podium

http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/ath...e=SP&position=3&place=&Submit=Search&limit=50

1 classic podium this year vs 2 free

 

[skjoldur]

Yes. And a fierce competitor as well. All the right factors to perform well - high confidence, intensely goal-driven, committed to competition beyond all else, no distraction, tremendous support emotionally and financially, personal and family wealth (no money issues).

It wasn't the intention to focus on Kikkan Randall or the Alaska Pacific University/US Team training program. If you're shining a spotlight on the Norwegian and Finnish teams and individual athletes, remarkable performance and podiums, it's necessary to also look at the other athletes performing at the same level and on the podium. Nobody gets a pass.

Randall is a superb athlete in a ridiculously challenging sport, regardless. All of them are! All the world loves a warm fuzzy story of triumph - no one begrudges Brooks her second chance at wearing national team colors and the Olympics, or doesn't appreciate Kikkan's hard work to recover from medical crisis.

But then throw in the US's decision not to fill their quota and snubbing top-qualified skiers like Sylvan Ellefson and Caitlin Gregg, instead taking lower-ranked athletes they've been 'grooming' and building programs around. Things that make you sit up and take notice.

 

[Cloxxki]

Randall is much like Bjoergen in that respect.
Started as technical sprinter. No denying Randall is a natural. Very innovative/intutive skiing style. The way she won in Dusseldorf, freeskating to the line from a really minor downhill. Girl's got skills.
Bjoergen also improved her distance game while getting HUGE. Randall also is no cute skinny girl anymore, she's a cute bodybuilder. And strangely efficient in distance.
Bjoergen is rarely bested in distance, and then only by very few individuals. One is Johaug, super lightweight build, but with toned muscles, and good engine. And Kowalczyk, most only in classic where she is best able to use her engine.
What must Bjoergen's VO2 be, to haul up all that visible muscle, at almost the same pace as skinny Johaug? Why wasn't Bjoergen unbeatable at distance before she got huge? Only on Alpe Cermis do we really see her reaching her aerobic limits.
Commentators ad nausea mention Bjoergen's fast descending skis. I think she just has 10-15kg on the girls around her. Send a somewhat chubby girl down a hill with the skinny racer types, same result.
It's more surprising Bjorgen can climb with ANY of the other WC professionals than consistently show "fast skis". We're not talking climbs that are sprinted up. Multiple minutes of non-stop climbing. And then she out-doublepoles everyone to the finish, again on pure muscle mass, especially in the upper body.
And then all the mysterious ailments, skipped races... And the rest of the national team are happy to hang out with her. Yet, do not copy her body style.
Do skiers need huge biceps? Training my triceps served (just push-ups) served me really well or skiing. Such biceps, I think will happen just from spontaneous growth on a skier.
The real slap in the face is that Bjoergen is so arrogant as to show her arms in public. At least Kowalczyk and Randall seem to prevent that more now?

 

[ToreBear]

Torebear! At first my intention was not to coment your argumentation about Saltins Mental Health because its just not the right forum. I Think its great when people with different opinions can argue back and forth with perhaps some namedroping in all good sports. But when you say Saltin is suffering from frontal lobe dementia and caling Pythons behaviour is like a Pedofile you crossed a line that i dont Think suits this discussion. This thread is widespread, discussed and reffered to in many smaller forums all over the World.

You post yourself as quite an expert in frontal lobe dementia and says we cant listen to what Bengt Saltin has to say. If we should take a look at the symptoms it must in your expert opiniun state a person suffering from FTD has to have lost the memory completely from the last 30 years.

Symptoms related to the three types of FTD include:

•Behavioral variant frontotemporal dementia (bvFTD) takes its greatest toll on personality and behavior. It may begin with subtle changes that may be mistaken for depression. As bvFTD progresses people often develop disinhibition, a striking loss of restraint in personal relations and social life.


•Primary progressive aphasia (PPA) affects language skills in early stages, but often also affects behavior as it advances. The two chief forms of PPA have somewhat different symptoms:
◦In semantic dementia, people speak easily, but their words convey less and less meaning. They tend to use broad general terms, such as "animal" when they mean "cat." Language comprehension also declines.
◦In progressive nonfluent aphasia, people lose their ability to generate words easily, and their speech becomes halting, "tongue-tied" and ungrammatical. Ability to read and write also may be impaired.


•FTD movement disorders affect certain involuntary, automatic muscle functions. These disorders also may impair language and behavior. The two primary FTD movement disorders are:
◦Corticobasal degeneration (CBD), which causes shakiness, lack of coordination, and muscle rigidity and spasms.
◦Progressive supranuclear palsy (PSP), which causes walking and balance problems, frequent falls and muscle stiffness, especially in the neck and upper body. It also affects eye movements.

http://www.alz.org/dementia/fronto-temporal-dementia-ftd-symptoms.asp

Well Torebear. Even if you are right about Saltin there is no problem with his memory. Trying to undermine someones arguments with caling out for menthal Health problems is the lowest form of argumentation and is not worthy in this forum. Thats my opiniun.

I see, you are right, I was probably just a bit frustrated with Python and took it out on the poor professor. Your link proved that clearly. So hopefully everyone will ignore what I wrote with an "elevated temperament". I usually do not succumb to temper, but it looks like someone found the right button.

Now as for the argument I had with Python. If you look back at post #1550 and follow our posting from there, you will see a pattern were he makes statements and I try to explain and ask for clarification. Instead of him responding to what I have to say, he appears to totally ignore it. I don't like being called a fanboy since it diminishes the value of my opinion. Python argued that the truth hurts, as in, if you are called something, and you don't like it, then it must be true.

So in order to counter that, I needed to find something which I could direct at him, that I could assume not be true as well as elicit an emotional reaction from him. Hence I used the P word since I could not come up with anything else that was guaranteed to elicit an emotional reaction from him. I still can not come up with anything better. I also made it as clear as I could(without removing the emotional reaction) that it was not an accusation about him, it was ment as an accusation to disprove that only the truth hurts. This I believe I achieved. Of course now I gave him even more ammunition. And it looks like he is being purposefully obtuse(I had to look it up, hope I used it correctly(he is playing stupid)).

Now Python seems to have totally ignored everything I have written and used anything he can to make me angry, including taking quotes out of context etc. I have now realized that python was trolling. I had to google it to be sure since I have never experienced being trolled before. I am surprised, I did not think that he is the kind of poster that would indulge in such childishness. But I guess I was wrong. I feel stupid for falling for it.

Now I'm sorry about being so dismissive in my previous post, I had just spent too much time arguing with what I later realized was someone trolling. So I was ****ed at my self for the time I had wasted, and I was in no mood for long elaborate replies.

 

[ToreBear]

I started from the beginning and trying to keep up. A couple of modest thoughts, if you'll indulge me. I may not know what I'm talking about...just thoughts.

Reduced the post to save some poor electrons...

That was a good well thought out post. I'm really not inclined at this time to go into any detailed discussion, but I think some of your assumptions might not be accurate.

Now the ranking lists, vary a lot because it depends on who is racing. This being an olympic year the world cup, and hence the rankings take a back seat. So the current rankings should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'm not sure how into skiing you are, so I will assume that you only recently started taking an interest. If that is not true, I apologize for the superfluous tings I'm pointing at.

Now that she varies in her results is quite natural. Remember she is a sprinter. Sprints are a combination of skill, luck and energy. You need skiing skill, but you also need luck to avoid getting caught up in bad situation, and then you need the energy to compete in the final once you get there. Sometimes you have bad luck, like breaking a pole or falling or something. Or you can loose your concentration and miss the correct opening and be stuck behind traffic. Also you can have a bad physical day. So seeing variation in the results is quite normal. Now if you include the distance races in your opinion about variability, you have to remember she is not a distance skier, she is more of a sprinter, hence she might not tire herself out if there is a sprint the next day. That said over the years, she has developed some stamina, so she is quite capable of attaining a high ranking in distance races of a shorter length. Say 10k and perhaps more.

Now this also pertains to your thinking about cardiovascular activity. In skiing the technique is important. You can have a great cardio system, without it doing you any good, since you will likely waste the energy trying to ski. As skiers train more and get older, their technique gets refined and becomes more efficient. Hence less energy is required to do the same. Add to that, the process of improving your technique also has a bi effect of improving stamina. So IMHO the peak is in the early thirties. This is of course individual, but it seems to be the general rule. Now a lot of women might retire earlier, but that might be more about life moving on, and not about the physique. Marriage, children, education, job etc.

Now to the US women especially. My opinion of them is they have great engines, but they lack technique. This will take time to work on, but the potential is certainly there as their technical efficiency improves. Also having raced in the US with less competition than say in Norway, they are at a disadvantage in tactics, like placement in the field etc. This takes time to learn.

Now about testing. I was only aware that she failed the health test prior to the olympics. This could mean something or it could mean nothing. She was AFAIK given the all clear after the minimum time period. IIRC there were two athletes who had to sit out the games because their values did'nt fall.

There was a lot of bruhaha over this because of a new system that had been implemented from 2002 onwards, also there was some disagreement over the values in relation to Sachenbacher Sthele. The man in charge was very capable, and set up a good system. Though I think he was replaced that year or the next with someone from a different background. My theory is that it was thought he had too little appreciation for how much variability is within a normal range. Anyway, the system was good and probably just needed a little tweaking.

Now, the thing about 2006 is that they are currently retesting samples. And a lot of stuff that was thought undetectable then, might be long lasting now. So perhaps someone will get popped during this next month.

But you should remember that the health test was not a dope test, there were many reasons for variability.

Now as for Kikkan herself. I have not seen anything in these later years that has made me suspicious. I have not looked in to the different explanations she has apparently given, but I wouldn't take inconsistency as proof or anything. It would make me curious though.

On Holly Brooks, I have not seen any performances from her that would make me suspicious. And again, in my opinion skiers will become better as they get older, since mastering it, takes a long time.


Now I haven't looked in detail about the things you list, so if any of my input is surpurflous or misplaced I apologize. Now I really don't want to get too involved in this discussion because the olympics are starting and this stuff takes a lot of time, but perhaps at a later time.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Liz Stephen is the best American XC skier and if I were in charge of the calendar would probably rank higher than Randall anyway.

 

[figgelura]

I see, you are right, I was probably just a bit frustrated with Python and took it out on the poor professor. Your link proved that clearly. So hopefully everyone will ignore what I wrote with an "elevated temperament". I usually do not succumb to temper, but it looks like someone found the right button.

Now as for the argument I had with Python. If you look back at post #1550 and follow our posting from there, you will see a pattern were he makes statements and I try to explain and ask for clarification. Instead of him responding to what I have to say, he appears to totally ignore it. I don't like being called a fanboy since it diminishes the value of my opinion. Python argued that the truth hurts, as in, if you are called something, and you don't like it, then it must be true.

So in order to counter that, I needed to find something which I could direct at him, that I could assume not be true as well as elicit an emotional reaction from him. Hence I used the P word since I could not come up with anything else that was guaranteed to elicit an emotional reaction from him. I still can not come up with anything better. I also made it as clear as I could(without removing the emotional reaction) that it was not an accusation about him, it was ment as an accusation to disprove that only the truth hurts. This I believe I achieved. Of course now I gave him even more ammunition. And it looks like he is being purposefully obtuse(I had to look it up, hope I used it correctly(he is playing stupid)).

Now Python seems to have totally ignored everything I have written and used anything he can to make me angry, including taking quotes out of context etc. I have now realized that python was trolling. I had to google it to be sure since I have never experienced being trolled before. I am surprised, I did not think that he is the kind of poster that would indulge in such childishness. But I guess I was wrong. I feel stupid for falling for it.

Now I'm sorry about being so dismissive in my previous post, I had just spent too much time arguing with what I later realized was someone trolling. So I was ****ed at my self for the time I had wasted, and I was in no mood for long elaborate replies.

Good response. I felt your frustration building up. But what a boring World it would be if everybody would agree all the time. Looking forward to continue disagreeing with you in the future.

 

[python]

i dont agree with calling bjoergen arrogant for displaying her musculature.

her type is most definitely not what i consider feminine or attractive, but calling her arrogant for that is to not understand her (and many other female and male) athletes world. many are simply immensely proud of their bodies and find it natural to pose with what they consider their asset. they just don't look at themselves through the eyes of fans. this is particularly true of many western/american and scandinavian xc skiers.

one can easily google out all sorts of pix of half naked norwegian national team, including topless, but never a single one of top-level xc ski girls from the eastern part of europe.

the plain reason is more/less conservative traditions. i even used the russian search engine yandex - still no hit. the most 'revealing' pictures one can find, would be the girls in their summer outfits on the roller skis...and under those lycra shorts and tops, a rather developed musculature can be discerned.

so, no marit is not arrogant, just unattractive to certain male tastes. in fact, i read in more than one interview by her competitors that she is quite, what's the equivalent of being a gentleman for women ? - a lady-like and very polite.

now, if that her musculature was certifiably the product of anabolic steroids, then i can see the usage of that tag. but that is an assumptions, not fact.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

i dont agree with calling bjoergen arrogant for displaying her musculature.

her type is most definitely not what i consider feminine or attractive, but calling her arrogant for that is to not understand her (and many other female and male) athletes world. many are simply immensely proud of their bodies and find it natural to pose with what they consider their asset. they just don't look at themselves through the eyes of fans. this is particularly true of many western/american and scandinavian xc skiers.

one can easily google out all sorts of pix of half naked norwegian national team, including topless, but never a single one of top-level xc ski girls from the eastern part of europe.

the plain reason is more/less conservative traditions. i even used the russian search engine yandex - still no hit. the most 'revealing' pictures one can find, would be the girls in their summer outfits on the roller skis...and under those lycra shorts and tops, a rather developed musculature can be discerned.

so, no marit is not arrogant, just unattractive to certain male tastes. in fact, i read in more than one interview by her competitors that she is quite, what's the equivalent of being a gentleman for women ? - a lady-like and very polite.

now, if that her musculature was certifiably the product of anabolic steroids, then i can see the usage of that tag. but that is an assumptions, not fact.

Iourieva took some pics for a magazine before she got caught (the first time) I belive

 

[MrRoboto]

Why wasn't Bjoergen unbeatable at distance before she got huge?

When, in your opinion, did she get huge?

 

[MrRoboto]

Iourieva took some pics for a magazine before she got caught (the first time) I belive

And Domracheva.

 

[jens_attacks]

Iourieva took some pics for a magazine before she got caught (the first time) I belive

ready for poltoranin festival?....we gonna go full throttle!
fasten your seatbelts


to be clear, i like johaug and marrit too. she has all the rights to look how she wants. she's a big champ of the sport. i just hope she won't crush the competition so easily this time.

my posts are not to be taken very seriously. except those where i'm piszed at the norwegians us postal fans of course

let's all enjoy a fair-play, doping free olympics!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Khrustaleva also went the full frontal route after Vancouver as well, depending on whether you want to count her as Eastern European or not since while she's ethnic Russian she's from Siberia and represents Kazakhstan.

But like Iourieva we're talking biathlon there... I can't think off the top of my head of any biathletes who are built like the powerhouse XC skiers like Bjørgen or Randall. The fastest female skiers among biathletes seem to be based mostly on technique - Gössner is slender and uses a fast turnover to generate her pace like Johaug, Mäkäräinen is tall and slim with strong reach, and when you have the natural technical gift that Domracheva has you don't need to be a powerhouse. Magdalena Neuner is probably the nearest recent biathlon has to a power woman, skiing low turnover in a high gear à la Kowalczyk (especially when compared to a high turnover athlete like Tora Berger)... and even then, she is a long way removed from the kind of upper body we're talking with Marit.

We'd need the shots to be of the XC specialists, and then preferably the short-distance specialists. Comparing musculature of Bjørgen to some holiday snaps of Domracheva/Skardino or Sleptsova and a half-decade old pictorial of Iourieva doesn't really let us draw any worthwhile conclusions because though connected, the training requirements of the sports are completely different.

(in reference: whoever it was saying there hadn't been a clean Russian skier in 50 years, I suggest that Svetlana Sleptsova is currently a clean athlete. Discuss.)