Doping in XC skiing

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

If the numbers in junior ranks are superior to other countries, along with the financial capabilities for many Norwegians to pursue a skiing career – it would go far to explain the depth in the Norwegian team.

The numbers are superior - maybe with Russia as an exception - and I totally agree that it explains the depth in the Norwegian team.

However, for me, it still doesn't explain freak performances we see in some cases.

Touché

 

[Cloxxki]

Re:

But Johaug is definitely not that good technically, especially while skating. By her own standards she might have improved, but explaining her dominance even partly by technical skills would be pushing it. Compare to Domracheva and Kalla and you'll get the picture. To her it's mainly about maintaining that insane cadence. And gravity.

The way I see it, skis by (current) design simply favor lightweight skiers. All skis are 4cm wide. Whether you're 46kg like her, or 92kg like me. Ski length is limited by sponsors. 192-195cm is all you get. I think Johaug often uses 187. But even 177 would be hugely long compared to the longest I can get. Not only in a pure length sense, he skate skis being way longer than she is tall and somehow having to manage those (high tempo might be necesary to not stumble), but especially kg/cm³. In soft snow she doesn't have challengers who are not in another sport (Domracheva). Johaug can hacksaw through soft snow and have way less resistance to content with than if Domracheva skis with a 35kg backpack on my 192 skis, keeping it silky smooth. You just poke the snow like it's a walking stick. Wider than 4cm is not for sale, wider that 192 also not. And most pros are in the 182-192 bracket. 5% length range! So the longest you can get seem to have preference. Advantage to short and light people.
In classic I suspect the low body weigh also helps. Less purchase required over the length of the grip zone to get sufficient push. And still a halla long ski to make for low drag.
The drag factor doesn't overcome air resistance in a fast downhill, Bjoergen types are visibly quicker there, mass/frontal area, but when just racing along, it's great to be light. And ski and policy makers act like one ski fits all, and no choice should be allowed. Or "there is no demand".

Still, I don't think the technical advantage Johaug IMO absolutely holds, makes her clean. It's liek other nations don't care about skiing, and have no culture. A ski nut nation is expected to be good, but not with such supremacy. Other nations are well committed, have good talents, and their technique is great.
I'm also not going to vouch for Kalla, BTW.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

But Johaug is definitely not that good technically, especially while skating. By her own standards she might have improved, but explaining her dominance even partly by technical skills would be pushing it. Compare to Domracheva and Kalla and you'll get the picture. To her it's mainly about maintaining that insane cadence. And gravity.

The way I see it, skis by (current) design simply favor lightweight skiers. All skis are 4cm wide. Whether you're 46kg like her, or 92kg like me. Ski length is limited by sponsors. 192-195cm is all you get. I think Johaug often uses 187. But even 177 would be hugely long compared to the longest I can get. Not only in a pure length sense, he skate skis being way longer than she is tall and somehow having to manage those (high tempo might be necesary to not stumble), but especially kg/cm³. In soft snow she doesn't have challengers who are not in another sport (Domracheva). Johaug can hacksaw through soft snow and have way less resistance to content with than if Domracheva skis with a 35kg backpack on my 192 skis, keeping it silky smooth. You just poke the snow like it's a walking stick. Wider than 4cm is not for sale, wider that 192 also not. And most pros are in the 182-192 bracket. 5% length range! So the longest you can get seem to have preference. Advantage to short and light people.
In classic I suspect the low body weigh also helps. Less purchase required over the length of the grip zone to get sufficient push. And still a halla long ski to make for low drag.
The drag factor doesn't overcome air resistance in a fast downhill, Bjoergen types are visibly quicker there, mass/frontal area, but when just racing along, it's great to be light. And ski and policy makers act like one ski fits all, and no choice should be allowed. Or "there is no demand".

Still, I don't think the technical advantage Johaug IMO absolutely holds, makes her clean. It's liek other nations don't care about skiing, and have no culture. A ski nut nation is expected to be good, but not with such supremacy. Other nations are well committed, have good talents, and their technique is great.
I'm also not going to vouch for Kalla, BTW.

I hope Bjoergen skis until 2018 and even beyond and still dominates. A little bit like Bjoerndalen. Winning races at almost 42, against people that could almost be his kids. It would be extremely hilarious to see her still skiing at 41 or 42 and still winning world cups.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

I hope Bjoergen skis until 2018 and even beyond and still dominates. A little bit like Bjoerndalen. Winning races at almost 42, against people that could almost be his kids. It would be extremely hilarious to see her still skiing at 41 or 42 and still winning world cups.

Nothing would frustrate me more. Chances are though, she'll be stronger after a short baby break.

 

[roundabout]

Hilde Pedersen. First and only WC race win and only Olympic individual medal aged 41. Raced in the Nationals on the team with her daughters.

But to be fair, she did spend a decade ski orienteering which is probably a lot less demanding.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Hilde Pedersen. First and only WC race win and only Olympic individual medal aged 41. Raced in the Nationals on the team with her daughters.

But to be fair, she did spend a decade ski orienteering which is probably a lot less demanding.

Very true. She was in a tougher era too. I mean, Bjoerden was in that era, Kowalczyk was starting to make a name for herself, Saarinen was there and doing well, Kikkan Randall was an up and coming racer...Plus you had Kuitunen, Manninen (Muranen, later), Tchepalova, Steira, Neumannova, Follis, Paruzzi, Valbusa, etc.

 

[Gracey]

Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

I'm an Australian living in Norway and in my son's class, from 2nd grade on, only 2 boys aren't skiing for the local club and one is Polish the other from Sudan.

 

[Lemen]

Another Norwegian boreathon in Davos right now. It all just starts to blur into one big red procession after a while.

 

[John de Savage]

Can't they just ban Johaug without a positive test?

 

[John de Savage]

Charlotte Kalla's VO2 max is 74
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondition

Heidi Weng's is 75
http://www.langrenn.com/heidi-frykter-ikke-ulven.5231080-1743.html

They just don't have the engine to be within a minute of Johaug in a 35~ minute race.

 

[Discgear]

TJ Storms into finish with the usual "everything is awesome" scream-laughter. Look as crisp as getting of the bus, miles ahead every Norwegian competitor - the only ones being even remotely close.

 

[harryh]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

I'm an Australian living in Norway and in my son's class, from 2nd grade on, only 2 boys aren't skiing for the local club and one is Polish the other from Sudan.

Yeah, they have very large talent pool for xc skiing and for their internal competition they used to dominate these december competitions, usually the international level is more even in the spring. Here in Finland ice hockey is like xc skiing in Norway, getting all the biggest talents.

 

[BullsFan22]

Charlotte Kalla's VO2 max is 74
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondition

Heidi Weng's is 75
http://www.langrenn.com/heidi-frykter-ikke-ulven.5231080-1743.html

They just don't have the engine to be within a minute of Johaug in a 35~ minute race.

What's Johaug's VO2max? Those are pretty high numbers for women. Obviously they aren't that big, so that helps, but in any case, those are very good numbers. Having said that, you don't have to have the highest numbers to dominate. There are many other factors to skiing. This isn't running.

 

[BullsFan22]

Davos is at altitude, very noticeably (if you ever change from lower altitude to higher mountains, you'll know what I mean). I've skied there before and the courses are tough. Either up or down. Very little in between. The stadium, is really the only flat area on the course. For the Norwegians to still dominate with these gaps AT ALTITUDE is worrisome. The French, traditionally do very well here. In fact, the Italians do as well. At altitude, dry, compact snow and very little humidity, skating. Nor surprise to see the French men do well today. I was expecting them to do this, more or less. Nobody is touching Sundby this year. Gloeersen continues his miraculous transformation from pure sprinter to a guy that can get on the podium in 10, 15, and I guess 30kms...If he gets on the podium in the Oslo 50km classic this year, consider that suspicious.

 

[John de Savage]

The french are doing well in the new era of clean skiing.

What's Johaug's VO2max? Those are pretty high numbers for women. Obviously they aren't that big, so that helps, but in any case, those are very good numbers. Having said that, you don't have to have the highest numbers to dominate. There are many other factors to skiing. This isn't running.

Yes, they are indeed pretty impressive numbers. It was intended as a sarcastic jab at the notion that the competition sucks. But I do realize that a high VO2 max doesn't guarantee success.

 

[Discgear]

The french are doing well in the new era of clean skiing.

Best Russian lady 27th.

Norwegian Inggard Lereim age 74 - at the top of FIS medical committee - is still going strong in keeping XC-skiing clean (and getting rid of any challenge to Norwegian hegemony). The Norse MD was team doctor already in Lillehammer 94.

In many ways the sport XC-skiing was more even and exciting in the era of doping. Never thought I would actually miss the 90s.

 

[BullsFan22]

The french are doing well in the new era of clean skiing.

Best Russian lady 27th.

Norwegian Inggard Lereim age 74 - at the top of FIS medical committee - is still going strong in keeping XC-skiing clean (and getting rid of any challenge to Norwegian hegemony). The Norse MD was team doctor already in Lillehammer 94.

In many ways the sport XC-skiing was more even and exciting in the era of doping. Never thought I would actually miss the 90s.

Yeah, not surprised about the Russians. Doping or not, they just don't have the women. In fact, I think it's a combination of bad coaches, not optimal training and not knowing who to take for which races. Add to the fact that they are literally hit or miss on waxing. The Russians, out of all the 'top' ski nations, have some of the worst ski preparations. It's really perplexing. They've had young skiers coming up, but they seem like they are overtrained and either aren't consistent enough of simply disappear after a few seasons. Make of that what you will...

Interesting that the FIS medical committee is led by a Norwegian, and one that was their team doctor during the EPO era. Wonder what she has to say about half of their athletes having asthma (Sundby, Bjoergen, the most notable).

 

[John de Savage]

The french are doing well in the new era of clean skiing.

Best Russian lady 27th.

Norwegian Inggard Lereim age 74 - at the top of FIS medical committee - is still going strong in keeping XC-skiing clean (and getting rid of any challenge to Norwegian hegemony). The Norse MD was team doctor already in Lillehammer 94.

In many ways the sport XC-skiing was more even and exciting in the era of doping. Never thought I would actually miss the 90s.

Yeah, not surprised about the Russians. Doping or not, they just don't have the women. In fact, I think it's a combination of bad coaches, not optimal training and not knowing who to take for which races. Add to the fact that they are literally hit or miss on waxing. The Russians, out of all the 'top' ski nations, have some of the worst ski preparations. It's really perplexing. They've had young skiers coming up, but they seem like they are overtrained and either aren't consistent enough of simply disappear after a few seasons. Make of that what you will...

Interesting that the FIS medical committee is led by a Norwegian, and one that was their team doctor during the EPO era. Wonder what she has to say about half of their athletes having asthma (Sundby, Bjoergen, the most notable).

The swedes are no better. 50% are asthmatics.
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/halva-svenska-laget-har-ocksa-dispens/

 

[Discgear]

The swedes are no better. 50% are asthmatics.
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/halva-svenska-laget-har-ocksa-dispens/

Equally bad throats. Considerably worse stamina.

 

[BullsFan22]

The swedes are no better. 50% are asthmatics.
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/halva-svenska-laget-har-ocksa-dispens/

Equally bad throats. Considerably worse stamina.

Well maybe the Swedes need to get with the program. Literally and figuratively.

 

[May0maniac]

Can't they just ban Johaug without a positive test?

Let her compete in road cycling, Johaug vs. the rest of the world on the Zoncolan in the Giro Rosa, I'd pay money to see that.

 

[BullsFan22]

Can't they just ban Johaug without a positive test?

Let her compete in road cycling, Johaug vs. the rest of the world on the Zoncolan in the Giro Rosa, I'd pay money to see that.

Then put her in the women's marathons (London, Berlin, NYC, Boston, Rotterdam...). Also have her race the 5000 and 10000m on the track.

 

[BullsFan22]

http://www.tv2.no/2015/12/12/sport/friidrett/7783372

Apparently this answers one of our previous questions regarding VO2 max numbers. Former skier and now elite track and field distance runner, Karoline Bjerkeli Grovdal, has VO2 max of 79. Sindre Buraas, another top Norwegian track and field runner has, apparently, a higher number than Bjoern Daehlie. Unfortunately they don't say how much it is, but if it's really higher than Daehlie, it must be super high. All time high.

 

[Saint Unix]

Dæhlie tested at 96, didn't he? I've only heard of one going higher, and that's Oskar Svendsen at his supposed 97,5.

What is it with us Norwegians and astronomical VO2 scores?

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

I'm an Australian living in Norway and in my son's class, from 2nd grade on, only 2 boys aren't skiing for the local club and one is Polish the other from Sudan.

Thank you for answer!

Yesterday Johaug had 20 seconds on 2,2 km, 1:20 in finish. Isn't that a lot? With what margin did Mühlegg won once upon a time?