Doping in XC skiing

[abcdaniel]

Re: Re:

You forgot Olsson's 2010 Olympic Skiathlon performance, and Olsson's 2012 Nove Mesto performance (in fact, that entire season raises eyebrows-veerpalu would have been proud of racing about 5 wc races in a season and winning 3 of them), and Olsson's 2013 15km and especially 50km, the now legendary race where he led for close 40 km and skied alone after Cologna fell for, what, 30-35 km? In 2014 he again barely raced, citing illness and not being sure if he would even go to Sochi to race at all, then wins two medals. Last year he did the same exact thing, this time winning 3 medals. One of them a gold, in the 15km skate. This guy is either one of the most mentally tough, most talented, most confident athletes that has ever lived or he took a few pages out of Muehlegg and Veerpalu's books. I actually like the guy, he is relatively modest and doesn't ask for favors and let's his skiing do the talking. That said, he has had some of the more eye opening performances of the past five or six years.

Yeah, I am struggling with not suspecting Olsson, for all the reasons you mention, but also because of his stories of isolating himself from his family, living alone in a cabin training, to sacrifice it all for another gold. Either he is heroic (not so heroic sacrificing one's family, though…), or doing like many other liars; overelaborating his lie. The Veerpalu comparison is pretty spot on, when it comes to performance. Having said that, I am still a fan and will let someone else prove me wrong. That 50 km 2013 I actually file in the ONE focused push category, where the rest of the field were acting immature not making even an improvised coordinated effort to close the gap. Olsson broke away, skied in perfect conditions, alone, doing his own race, his preferred modus operandi. That race is remarkable, but not in the Mühlegg/MJS/Ustiugov category.

Being a Swedish cross country fan thruogh the 90's, it was all a very prolonged wtf?-moment. How come all other nations are so good? Why are Swedes suddenly crap? I have the same feeling this season. Looking through World Cup, World Championship and Olympics results over the last 40 years, Swedish performance was stellar in the 80's, crap in 90's, again stellar in early 00's, then crap late 00's, then again stellar (in the championships) in the early 10's. In the 90's and 00's, Swedish performance follows an inversed curve of EPO-usage. The 90's saw heavy EPO use. Early 00's saw the the introduction of EPO-testing, followed in late 00's by more advanced microdosing usage of EPO and similar PED's. More rigorous blood passports were introduced in the final years of the 00's, right? Google fails me when trying to confirm that for cross country skiing. From early 10's I don't really know, someone help me out… Anyway, in hindsight I sincerely believe that the Swedes raced clean(er) through the 90's and 00's, and the fan boy in me wants to believe that still is the case. But for Olsson, it looks kind of weird. Kalla after 2012 Norwegian training, suspicious. Emelie Öhrstig, coming from a career in cycling, taking a World Championship gold in sprint 2005, quitting 2006, that never felt quite right. There's probably more Swedish weirdness, mainly the Sochi success, but those races seem so convoluted in regards to PED's, that I hardly even have an opinion.

 

[BullsFan22]

Saw this type of performance from Bjoerndalen a mile away. He is the master of disappearing into the Dolomites and Alps in his trailer/camper for much of the season and then shooting clean and out skiing most of the world at the age of 42. The sooner he retires, the better. Johann Muehlegg and Kristina Smigun lived and trained out of campers, disappearing in the woods and then coming back and winning medals after hardly racing. I am sure his professionalism is second to none.

Don't be surprised to see a gold in the pursuit and another gold with the men's relay team.

 

[TMobile41]

To be honest, i dont find Bjoerndalen's performance today that remarkable given what he did this season, but of course Chris Horner/Rebellin comes to mind .... I mean his form was kind of falling, he took a few weeks off and he seems more "focused" ( ), but his ski form is nothing out of the ordinary. What i really found a bit strange was Semenov's medal... Also the form of Boe's brothers and Svendsen is not quite there is it? Also a mention to Fourcade, his ski form is really really good... almost Sundby-esque

 

[BullsFan22]

To be honest, i dont find Bjoerndalen's performance today that remarkable given what he did this season, but of course Chris Horner/Rebellin comes to mind .... I mean his form was kind of falling, he took a few weeks off and he seems more "focused" ( ), but his ski form is nothing out of the ordinary. What i really found a bit strange was Semenov's medal... Also the form of Boe's brothers and Svendsen is not quite there is it? Also a mention to Fourcade, his ski form is really really good... almost Sundby-esque

Yeah. Semenov sure peaked for these championships...Two races. 4th in the mixed relay (a better shoot on the last standing stage would have given a strong chance at a medal, but wasn't to be) and then 3rd in the sprint.

Looks like the Russians 'might' be clean?? Garannichev is in good form, carrying over from the European Championships. Babikov was ok, but not quite what Gross was looking for, I am sure. Everyone else, men and women was not that impressive. Not much you could expect from their women, so in all honesty, they weren't too horrible, but ski speed is a ways from Eckhoff, Dorin-Habert and Dahlmeier (she crushed it today, after having two separate cases of sickness this season).

Fourcade is a talent, no doubt, and he spent lot's of time at Holmenkollen the past year, living and training there. Still, he practically toys with the rest of the people. At least Bjoerndalen is a little more professional about it.

 

[Kokoso]

To be honest, i dont find Bjoerndalen's performance today that remarkable given what he did this season, but of course Chris Horner/Rebellin comes to mind .... I mean his form was kind of falling, he took a few weeks off and he seems more "focused" ( ), but his ski form is nothing out of the ordinary. What i really found a bit strange was Semenov's medal... Also the form of Boe's brothers and Svendsen is not quite there is it? Also a mention to Fourcade, his ski form is really really good... almost Sundby-esque

Semenov performance is within realm of normality, he had 12th time yesterday and he proved in the past to be very good athlete, so what are you talking about guys.
Björndalen is much more troubling, the guy is getting better last four or five season, after his remarkable decline on 2009/10.
Svendsen, what happened with that guy? Is he no longer Norwegian No. One? Looks like... JTB's form is ok though, third course time, good shooting...what would you expect?
Tarjei seems rather unstable and gets easily annoyed if he isn't doing well and isn't even trying then, it was apparent yesterday, look at style with what he crossed finish line... Ske speed wise he did pretty well, the form can be there and I'm sure we will see something better from him this WC.

 

[Kokoso]

All French in great shape, Fourcade maybe better than ever before...but Anais Bescond today is probably most striking.

 

[glassmoon]

Eduard Latypov - meldonium
junior world champion - biathlon

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/14940992/russian-biathlete-eduard-latypov-tests-positive-meldonium

 

[Cloxxki]

Yurlova strikingly far off the pace. Doesn't exactly seem ontouchable in terms of testing. It's not like she didn't want it or didn't commit.
I'm a Dahlmeier fan, but the way she's developed a Tora Berger'esque last lap that I don't remind having seen when she first hit the world cup, makes me uncomfortable. How does a good shooter become the fastest over a last lap? How did Berger even do that?
Bescond and Dorin Habert seemed genuinely delighted at the finish line. OK, not exactly baffled by what happened, such as Van Langen after her '1992 800m.
With Fourcade, I can't get over him being so stable on his feet at the end of a biathlon race. That telemark over the bridge... Surely it's easy when you're fresh, but winning a biathlon race is supposed to noodle your legs all up.
In a sport and age where Norwegians seems utterly protected, for some reason Bjoerndalen feels the need to go into hiding in the Dolomites. Did his king after one exceptionally bold win whisper in his ear that he's overdoing it, and should be overdoing it abroad? Then, you have Fourcade moving the other direction. How does a Frenchman that embarasses the Norwegians get to do his thing there? Does he stay there for long periods of time or just quick visits to be seen in the land of the clean? I'm not sure I'd feel safe there, unless I had something on them and I'd whispered that to the good king personally. "Psst, I know all about the NO projects this and that and have all the proof at a lawyer's vault in France. I want to be treated like a true viking here".
I can't make sense of it all. Doping in such a sport makes minutes of difference. And we get those minutes between what should be top nations. And the Russians are the ones looking clean-ish...

 

[kingjr]

Concerning Dahlmeier, look at her early results at the Junior Level, Nove Mesto 2011, Obertilliach 2013, and her success now shouldn't come as a surprise. Also look at the relay in Nove Mesto in 2013, or at her Sprint in Sochi the same year, where she had 11th fastest skiing time overall and 5th fastest on the last lap, 7 seconds behind Mäkäräinen.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Concerning Dahlmeier, look at her early results at the Junior Level, Nove Mesto 2011, Obertilliach 2013, and her success now shouldn't come as a surprise. Also look at the relay in Nove Mesto in 2013, or at her Sprint in Sochi the same year, where she had 11th fastest skiing time overall and 5th fastest on the last lap, 7 seconds behind Mäkäräinen.

Being sick multiple times a year and then popping up great results (as predictable as we think they may be) at the championships is a little different.

The Russians that compete here have all had good amount of success at junior level. What's happened this year in Oslo? The comments at various Russian sites say that it was a mistake to go to N. America, and that the team peaked in Antholtz, where even Yurlova and Podchufarova won two races and got a couple more podiums and obviously the success of their men, with Shipulin, Garanichev and others. They may have peaked too early, though both guys are still skiing well enough to challenge for medals. Malyshko has struggled all year, Volkov isn't shooting as well as he is capable of and since shooting is his strength, he is down the results list. The younger guys are underperforming. The rest of the women weren't expected to do a whole lot, so their results are more or less where they are at this point in time.

Fourcade is a freak of nature. Dominates early, dominates in the middle, dominates at the major championships, dominates at the end of the season and keeps winning the overall WC. I'd love for him to walk away with 6 gold medals. That will make even the 90 year old man who spends most of his time hiding away in the Italian and Austrian mountains look like a mortal.

The German men have also been like the Russian men. No individual medals and missing a gear or two. Same problems of peaking too early? Bad skis? Simply not good enough?

The Austrians at it again? Admittedly Eder shot clean and was able to ski well enough to hang on. Landertinger probably skied conservatively to make sure he shot clean. He did and had a fairly fast last lap where he kept pace with Fourcade. I am not sold on them being clean either.

The Boe brothers are surprisingly not as good here as I thought they'd be in the skiing portion. Johannes was millimeters away from a potential gold on his very last shot. Tarjei isn't what he was a few years ago, it seems.

Jakov Fak might be the first clean skier here. A good ski and a good shoot from him today (one miss). He still would have been behind in fourth had he made his last shot. A 5th and 6th so far in Oslo is still very good for him, even if he's gotten at least one medal at almost every championship/olympics since 2008. I don't see anything suspicious about him, but that's just me.

Anyone else?

 

[roundabout]

Fak might be clean because?

 

[BullsFan22]

Fak might be clean because?

Why not?

 

[roundabout]

Fak might be clean because?

Why not?

Just trying to follow your logic here.

He was 43rd in the World Cup standings with 1 top-10 in 10 races prior to Oslo.

And I have been very suspicious of him ever since he nearly won the Worlds in 2009 despite having practically zero prior results at any level

 

[BullsFan22]

Fak might be clean because?

Why not?

Just trying to follow your logic here.

He was 43rd in the World Cup standings with 1 top-10 in 10 races prior to Oslo.

He's been sick. Hard to get WC points when you don't race.

 

[roundabout]

But he is clean despite improving his performances when it matters despite his previous sickness while for Dahlmeier the same is a a sign of ...

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

But he is clean despite improving his performances when it matters despite his previous sickness while for Dahlmeier the same is a a sign of ...

LOL. I fell into that trap, didn't I?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not to mention that Dahlmeier is a phenom. She was winning Junior medals at Nové Mesto in 2011, she was a 17-year-old first year youth. She beat the likes of Eckhoff and Dzhima who are 3 years older than her and far from scrubs. Olsbu, who's been way above her season norm ski speed wise, was in those same Junior Worlds (she is also from 1990) and was way down. Sure, in those days Laura was doing it all on her shooting, but that's hardly surprising when you're giving away that kind of age difference at that age. The best junior that year was Wierer, who took two or three years of adjusting to the World Cup level, improving her ski speed to become progressively more competitive, and is now one of the best out there. Dahlmeier's frequently missing races for illness and only competing when she's in the mix for the win is noteworthy and alarming, as is her super-strong Tora Berger-esque final lap, but just her being up competing for the win is not only unsurprising but, frankly, is almost expected given the level she showed as a junior and in her first outings in the World Cup. It's not like she's raised her game in Holmenkollen above where we might have anticipated she would be from normal World Cup races. Her individual races season long have seen her 6th, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 11th, 4th, 1st, 1st, 9th, 3rd, 16th, 7th, then 3rd, 1st, 3rd at the Worlds. She's always up in the mix when she races, and the races she won and podiumed last season were based on that final lap charge as well. She's definitely more one of those "if something's up it was up all along" types than some Maxim Maksimov-like "spirit of the World Championships" story.

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

Yurlova strikingly far off the pace. Doesn't exactly seem ontouchable in terms of testing. It's not like she didn't want it or didn't commit.
I'm a Dahlmeier fan, but the way she's developed a Tora Berger'esque last lap that I don't remind having seen when she first hit the world cup, makes me uncomfortable. How does a good shooter become the fastest over a last lap? How did Berger even do that?
Bescond and Dorin Habert seemed genuinely delighted at the finish line. OK, not exactly baffled by what happened, such as Van Langen after her '1992 800m.
With Fourcade, I can't get over him being so stable on his feet at the end of a biathlon race. That telemark over the bridge... Surely it's easy when you're fresh, but winning a biathlon race is supposed to noodle your legs all up.
In a sport and age where Norwegians seems utterly protected, for some reason Bjoerndalen feels the need to go into hiding in the Dolomites. Did his king after one exceptionally bold win whisper in his ear that he's overdoing it, and should be overdoing it abroad? Then, you have Fourcade moving the other direction. How does a Frenchman that embarasses the Norwegians get to do his thing there? Does he stay there for long periods of time or just quick visits to be seen in the land of the clean? I'm not sure I'd feel safe there, unless I had something on them and I'd whispered that to the good king personally. "Psst, I know all about the NO projects this and that and have all the proof at a lawyer's vault in France. I want to be treated like a true viking here".
I can't make sense of it all. Doping in such a sport makes minutes of difference. And we get those minutes between what should be top nations. And the Russians are the ones looking clean-ish...

Ole knows how to play the game, but he has almost become a local guy, he was married with Nathalie Santer for about 6 years and he's still training in the same area.
It's a good place to train high altitude (at least for flatlanders) and usually good training conditions, but Obertilliach is far away from the rest of the world, the road being closed because of massive snowfalls durning the winter is nothing special.
Ole is also too big to fall, If he failed a test someone would cover it up, that's a given.
@Libertine:
Durning her first few years as a pro Wierer wasn't super focussed, she was a bit of a party girl.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm not being critical of Wierer. Ultimately, she was winning Junior Worlds at 20, and is now 25 and one of the best out there, which doesn't seem unreasonable. Her ski speed was off what it needed to be at first, and has improved - without any massive Solemdal-esque jump - until such point as she is now able to compete for the win in any race. She was good young, and is now good at the elite level. Dahlmeier at 17 was not quite as good as Wierer at 20, but she was good enough to say that her being among the absolute best in the world now is far from shocking, especially when you consider from the World Cup in 2011 that Henkel, Zaitseva, Ekholm, Berger, Brunet and Neuner are all gone, Kuzmina's had a lengthy break, Sleptsova's fallen off a cliff and Domracheva's taking a year out.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Yurlova strikingly far off the pace. Doesn't exactly seem ontouchable in terms of testing. It's not like she didn't want it or didn't commit.
I'm a Dahlmeier fan, but the way she's developed a Tora Berger'esque last lap that I don't remind having seen when she first hit the world cup, makes me uncomfortable. How does a good shooter become the fastest over a last lap? How did Berger even do that?
Bescond and Dorin Habert seemed genuinely delighted at the finish line. OK, not exactly baffled by what happened, such as Van Langen after her '1992 800m.
With Fourcade, I can't get over him being so stable on his feet at the end of a biathlon race. That telemark over the bridge... Surely it's easy when you're fresh, but winning a biathlon race is supposed to noodle your legs all up.
In a sport and age where Norwegians seems utterly protected, for some reason Bjoerndalen feels the need to go into hiding in the Dolomites. Did his king after one exceptionally bold win whisper in his ear that he's overdoing it, and should be overdoing it abroad? Then, you have Fourcade moving the other direction. How does a Frenchman that embarasses the Norwegians get to do his thing there? Does he stay there for long periods of time or just quick visits to be seen in the land of the clean? I'm not sure I'd feel safe there, unless I had something on them and I'd whispered that to the good king personally. "Psst, I know all about the NO projects this and that and have all the proof at a lawyer's vault in France. I want to be treated like a true viking here".
I can't make sense of it all. Doping in such a sport makes minutes of difference. And we get those minutes between what should be top nations. And the Russians are the ones looking clean-ish...

Ole knows how to play the game, but he has almost become a local guy, he was married with Nathalie Santer for about 6 years and he's still training in the same area.
It's a good place to train high altitude (at least for flatlanders) and usually good training conditions, but Obertilliach is far away from the rest of the world, the road being closed because of massive snowfalls durning the winter is nothing special.
Ole is also too big to fall, If he failed a test someone would cover it up, that's a given.
@Libertine:
Durning her first few years as a pro Wierer wasn't super focussed, she was a bit of a party girl.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11141961

That wasn't talked about in the media and when it was called 'nonsense.' Yes, missing a test is not the same as failing a test, but still.

I've been to Obertilliach, skied up there, did some racing. Unfortunately it too, has suffered from global warming. One of the years I was there, there wasn't much snow, but the trails are good, they roll nicely and while there is always someone there that trains and there are always races there, it's fairly quiet and it's your stereotypical south tyrol area. Not too different from Toblach/Dobbiacco. I can see why the old man would spend much of his time there. Plus, nobody would bother him about doping there, as Austria and the South Tyrol is notorious for producing dopers in various sports. I doubt they do much testing there to begin with.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Not to mention that Dahlmeier is a phenom. She was winning Junior medals at Nové Mesto in 2011, she was a 17-year-old first year youth. She beat the likes of Eckhoff and Dzhima who are 3 years older than her and far from scrubs. Olsbu, who's been way above her season norm ski speed wise, was in those same Junior Worlds (she is also from 1990) and was way down. Sure, in those days Laura was doing it all on her shooting, but that's hardly surprising when you're giving away that kind of age difference at that age. The best junior that year was Wierer, who took two or three years of adjusting to the World Cup level, improving her ski speed to become progressively more competitive, and is now one of the best out there. Dahlmeier's frequently missing races for illness and only competing when she's in the mix for the win is noteworthy and alarming, as is her super-strong Tora Berger-esque final lap, but just her being up competing for the win is not only unsurprising but, frankly, is almost expected given the level she showed as a junior and in her first outings in the World Cup. It's not like she's raised her game in Holmenkollen above where we might have anticipated she would be from normal World Cup races. Her individual races season long have seen her 6th, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 11th, 4th, 1st, 1st, 9th, 3rd, 16th, 7th, then 3rd, 1st, 3rd at the Worlds. She's always up in the mix when she races, and the races she won and podiumed last season were based on that final lap charge as well. She's definitely more one of those "if something's up it was up all along" types than some Maxim Maksimov-like "spirit of the World Championships" story.

There are always spirit of the World Championships stories at every championship. Look at Susan Dunklee. When she raced in college in the United States, she couldn't even qualify for the NCAA's, now she's out skiing 99.9% of the field. A target here, and a target there, she might have had a medal already, even two perhaps. And let's not talk about her awful technique. There was guy named Josh Thompson, from the US, who won a medal at the 1987 world championships. The only medal in his career. He was 16th at the 1992 Olympics. Anais Bescond. Is she a spirit of the championships? The French have certainly found their stride in Oslo, not just Fourcade and Dorin-Habert. Even Martin's pesky older brother, Simon, turned a surprisingly quick ski time today. What about Benedikt Doll? Only 30 seconds behind Fourcade in ski time for a 20 km.

What to think about the Austrians today? They Austrian team has a history of doping as well. Neither guy is a stranger to podiums, especially Landertinger who was always fast on his skis, but we might as well throw them in the mix for suspicious athletes as well. Are they working with the Salzburg lab?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

With Benedikt Doll, he's actually the 5th fastest skier this season, after Fourcade, the Bø brothers and the error-prone Eberhard. Stronger than Schempp and Shipulin! With him it's been a big step up this season rather than a spirit of the World Championships. Nevertheless, it's quite the improvement, but I hadn't realised quite how good he'd become on the skis as, just that like Eberhard, he tends to miss too many targets early to be a contender.

The Austrians' form has always risen and fallen as a whole team, and this has always been pretty suspicious. Landi and Eder are both world class biathletes who are suited to this kind of event, and I see nothing shocking or surprising about them being there. Any suspicion of the results falls simply on them being part of that Austrian team that rises and falls in unison and has had its suspect dealings in the past rather than anything to do with those specific races I think.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

The Austrians' form has always risen and fallen as a whole team, and this has always been pretty suspicious.

It was and it's quite some time since this occured, most participants are gone now, like Sumann, Pinter, Mesotitsch is till trying in IBU cup I think. Anyway Landertinger was most significant in this regard. Eder I wouldn't say so, he didn't have this peaks and falls unlike his colleagues, he improved a lot in skiing times last season? I think, 32 years old. Until then he quite sucked in skiing, but always been great shooter. Maybe he wanted more.

Dahlmeier wasn't much ill IMO, rather she just took breaks and build her form around Oslo and Ruhpolding only saying she's ill. Nothing much clinical in it... I liked her quite a bit last season but this season she seems pretty unlikeable, self-important character.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Johannes was millimeters away from a potential gold on his very last shot.

It was 16th shot, not very last. And he simply messed it.
Tarjei was definitely best in his first season in world cup when he won overall ranking. Since then he was pretty random, able to shine and fail in consecutive days. Last season he quite sucked but then in world champs he was pretty good. This season he almost returned to his from of first and second in world cup. He was second overall after Anterselva, then missed Canmore and so descended overall, than after Presque Isle he was third overall. Don't let fool yourself, he had sixth time yesterday so he isn't exactly in bad shape, only he's just unlucky and disgusted IMO - he messed sprint totally so had no real chance for podium in pursuit so he let himself disgust. I think Norwegians are only thinking in all or nothing mode in Oslo, especially with increasing races and no sucsess.
So it's the opposite to last season for him where he sucked in world cup but shined in world champs - there was remarkable improvement in span of two weeks where he sucked hard in Nove Mesto (50th, 59th) then peaked and shined in Kontiolahti who knows why.

 

[Kokoso]

Most funky stuff of biathlon world champs? Unequivocally that Anais Bescond. Are you kidding me? Since is this girl runnig so fast? Since never is the answer, just now.
And Norwegian women, well...right time ressurection, but in their case it's understandable.
Edit: but Olsbu...too funny, or sad? One heck of improvement during of ski times and overally during season. If she was Russin or Ukrainian...