Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

I can see a simple, 'honest' mistake in inhaling a bit more than the prescribed limit, maybe twice, in a strung out period, but 10X as much??? And anabolic steroids for lip sores??[

when i moved to nyc from europe almost 2 decades ago i befriended a local journo of notice...he taught me some lessons about my 'europen perceptions'..he'd say, 'if something was 97% true, it wasn't 100% true. drop the 100% true, report it, and you haven't legally speaking (his faved expression) done anything to get a call from a legal dept'.

get a clue, pls, 9x isn't 10x. and it was 9x per the cas award

I am just regurgitating what I read. Whatever the amount that Sundby took was significantly higher than the legal limit, and he was caught doing it twice, in less than a month.

 

[python]

I can see a simple, 'honest' mistake in inhaling a bit more than the prescribed limit, maybe twice, in a strung out period, but 10X as much??? And anabolic steroids for lip sores??[

when i moved to nyc from europe almost 2 decades ago i befriended a local journo of notice...he taught me some lessons about my 'europen perceptions'..he'd say, 'if something was 97% true, it wasn't 100% true. drop the 100% true, report it, and you haven't legally speaking (his faved expression) done anything to get a call from a legal dept'.

get a clue, pls, 9x isn't 10x. and it was 9x per the cas award

I am just regurgitating what I read. Whatever the amount that Sundby took was significantly higher than the legal limit, and he was caught doing it twice, in less than a month.

i should have yelled i was being sarcastic

 

[Tubeless]

Good point. I know this may be a moot at this stage, but when real accusations started flying around the Russian skiers, particularly Legkov, in May, (also at times during the summer months), he mentioned how often he was tested, by whom and when. He had a big file folder (or whatever it was) with him to show the journalists. Now, I know that it doesn't mean much, whether he was telling the absolute truth or not, simply because, in my opinion, one way or another, the Russians will be penalized in the coming months. I don't doubt that at this stage. But for the sake of this discussion, even before the allegations of Sochi doping, Russians like Legkov were tested quite often. I imagine, since they were under closer regulation from WADA, it must have been a combination of WADA, RUSADA and perhaps other agencies. Since skiers like him spent the vast majority of their time outside Russia, I will tend to lean on believing those numbers. If I remember correctly, he mentioned the number of times he was tested prior and post Sochi. It was a decent number of times, to my amateur ears and eyes. The FIS general secretary, Sarah Lewis (I've mentioned this before here) confirmed those numbers.

So, in regards to Johaug, Sundby and other NSF sponsored athletes, perhaps they need to give the number of official anti-doping tests done in the past calendar year, or however far back they want to go. Let's see what FIS and WADA say and compare.

This is just my amateur perspective and opinion.

WADA doesn't do any testing. My understanding is that Legkov and Vylegzhanin were covered under a special FIS-sponsored testing program when they lived & trained in Switzerland. This exception was instituted after FIS (and IBU) had lost complete faith in RUSADA to test their own athletes - and Vylegzhanin had received a number of "no start" infractions due to high Hb values.

 

[BullsFan22]

Good point. I know this may be a moot at this stage, but when real accusations started flying around the Russian skiers, particularly Legkov, in May, (also at times during the summer months), he mentioned how often he was tested, by whom and when. He had a big file folder (or whatever it was) with him to show the journalists. Now, I know that it doesn't mean much, whether he was telling the absolute truth or not, simply because, in my opinion, one way or another, the Russians will be penalized in the coming months. I don't doubt that at this stage. But for the sake of this discussion, even before the allegations of Sochi doping, Russians like Legkov were tested quite often. I imagine, since they were under closer regulation from WADA, it must have been a combination of WADA, RUSADA and perhaps other agencies. Since skiers like him spent the vast majority of their time outside Russia, I will tend to lean on believing those numbers. If I remember correctly, he mentioned the number of times he was tested prior and post Sochi. It was a decent number of times, to my amateur ears and eyes. The FIS general secretary, Sarah Lewis (I've mentioned this before here) confirmed those numbers.

So, in regards to Johaug, Sundby and other NSF sponsored athletes, perhaps they need to give the number of official anti-doping tests done in the past calendar year, or however far back they want to go. Let's see what FIS and WADA say and compare.

This is just my amateur perspective and opinion.

WADA doesn't do any testing. My understanding is that Legkov and Vylegzhanin were covered under a special FIS-sponsored testing program when they lived & trained in Switzerland. This exception was instituted after FIS (and IBU) had lost complete faith in RUSADA to test their own athletes - and Vylegzhanin had received a number of "no start" infractions due to high Hb values.

Yep. I Remember Vylegzhanin was not allowed to start the 2011 tour de ski because of high hemoglobin levels. There are a number of ways your Hb levels can elevate. Of course some athletes like Jens Filbrich have naturally high levels, some that are born and raised at higher altitudes also have them. Sometimes it's due to dehydration, living at altitude for an extended period of time, sometimes it's doping. Legkov and Chernousov had lived and trained primarily in Davos and the surrounding areas after Vancouver. I don't think Vylegzhanin spent too much time there, though I do know that prior to the 2011 tds he did, hence probably the spike in Hb levels, though, again it could be other reasons.

 

[python]

vyleg never 'lived and trained' in switzerland...certainly he was there on various occasions.

the allusion to vyleg must have been a mistake meant for chernusov (a legkov partner @ the swiss-german coaching team)... vyleg had always stayed with their domestic coaching contingent and is/was therefore more suspicious than the reto/knaute group (legkov and chernusov).

that said, there was only one vyleg ''no start' due to high hemoglobin. i am not going to speculate beyond what i already said.

 

[Tubeless]

Re:

vyleg never 'lived and trained' in switzerland...certainly he was there on various occasions.

the allusion to vyleg must have been a mistake meant for chernusov (a legkov partner @ the swiss-german coaching team)... vyleg had always stayed with their domestic coaching contingent and is/was therefore more suspicious than the reto/knaute group (legkov and chernusov).

that said, there was only one vyleg ''no start' due to high hemoglobin. i am not going to speculate beyond what i already said.

Vylegzhanin was not allowed to start stage 5 of 2009-2010 Tour de Ski and again stage 1 of 2010-2011 Tour de Ski.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_Vylegzhanin

 

[Random Direction]

If one were to normalize out all of the doper in skiing for the last 30 years (realistically the skiers have been as full on as the cyclists, except there are a) fewer of them at the elite level and b) there is a nordic culture of reservedness), what would have been the top level of performance over the years? Wed have to exclude the scandanavians and Russians from the 80s to around 2008, and then factor out the more marginal gains since then. Is 2008-2011 a relatively clean period? Is, as I suspect, the top 30 from the onset of blood doping to the end of unchecked epo a loss cause like cycling?

Sundby and Johaug have nicely thought up excuses, engineered and highly implausible upon detailed examination. Engineered by NSF, so state sponsored is there and probably has been there a long time.

Also, having trained alongside the Austrians who later were proved to be doping, off the juice they were no better than high level domestic Canucks (not saying our team is clean bc I've been out of the scene for a while), but the Austrians were winning WC medals.

Makes me kind of sick that the cesspool of doping runs as deep as it has.

Though the Norwegian waxing advantage turned out to be true. They were puffing on their inhalers in the waxing room. Wonder what having a grinding advantage is code for? Any other code words for skiing doping come to mind?

 

[abcdaniel]

Then Vidar Lofshus outright lied. He claimed that the case against Johnsrud Sundby wasn’t about doping but about administration. And then, when Svens said it was indeed doping when he used doses 10 times the allowed, he laughed and claimed that was false and Johnsrud Sundby just used 70% of a normal dose. Then he returned to talk about that it was not at all a doping case and that the two months’ verdict was unjust since it was only technicalities concerning administration of allowed medication.
http://www.svtplay.se/video/10707527/opinion-live/opinion-live-sasong-2-20-okt-22-00

Vidar Lofshus' blatant lies were actually a bit shocking to me, coming in a critical and somewhat knowledgeable debate and not at a scripted press conference. The NSF's continual rock hard, all men on deck approach to covering up their convicted athlete is telling. What other sports organisations have done this? Not the palatable ones.

 

[python]

Løfshus was, must have been, a central figure behind an attempted, but failed, cover up of the sundby fiasco.

he HAS to lie as long as he's in that position. saying anything closer to the truth would amount to an admission he's in charge of a whole team of liars. and i am not sure he's the biggest liar in that cabal...the doctors probably are.

2 of them are down, many more still standing and probably harbouring some pretty dark secret from way back. i hope bendiksen (or any of the white-coated scape goats) get mads one day and turn into a mads drange (pun intended)

 

[Discgear]

Pretty sensational stuff tonight. On SVT debate program Opinion, journalist Lasse Anrell asked for Norway being banned from international skiing for two years due to what’s come out surrounding medication of healthy skiers. Journalist Hasse Svens – the guy behind Blodracet documentary – said the he doesn’t believe Johaug and the official version at all. He said that during the work with Blodracet when going through 1000s of blood samples, it indeed indicated stated-sponsored doping in Norway during the 1990s and 2000s.

Then Vidar Lofshus outright lied. He claimed that the case against Johnsrud Sundby wasn’t about doping but about administration. And then, when Svens said it was indeed doping when he used doses 10 times the allowed, he laughed and claimed that was false and Johnsrud Sundby just used 70% of a normal dose. Then he returned to talk about that it was not at all a doping case and that the two months’ verdict was unjust since it was only technicalities concerning administration of allowed medication.
http://www.svtplay.se/video/10707527/opinion-live/opinion-live-sasong-2-20-okt-22-00

In the same time former skier Øystein Pettersen (left the national team in 2014) said in Aftenposten that it’s no secret that the second floor in the Norwegian Team ski wax trailer is used for inhaling asthma medication with nebulizers between the races. He said that he – despite not having asthma – used to be medicated after the prologues in sprint with Ventoline and Pulmicourt.

When asked why in the trailer:
Because it has electricity. And it doesn’t look god if the Nebulizer is at the stadium. It’s about the signal effect. It’s parts of elite sport that you don’t necessarily want to expose to children.
It’s nonsense to claim we don’t use it to enhance performance. But it is allowed.
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/langrenn/Norske-lopere-tar-medisiner-i-smoretraileren-under-skirenn-844605_1.snd

This needs to go viral. I hope they get exposed massively and the ship goes down. For too long the Norwegians have lambasted the Russians, Finns, Italians, Poles, Germans....even Swedes(!!!) of doping or suspicious racing while doing the same or perhaps worse crap themselves. Tired of the holier-than-thou attitude that they exert out on the trails and everyone needs to bow down.

Good that it's the Swedes, the SVT and the man that made the documentary. This bogus 'grey area' manipulation needs to be exposed and stopped. If they want to ban the Russians, then they sure as heck need to ban the Norwegians if all these allegations are true, and since numerous current and former athletes on the NSF have spoken about using asthma meds even though they don't need them, then it needs to be investigated FULLY and something needs to happen.

I can see a simple, 'honest' mistake in inhaling a bit more than the prescribed limit, maybe twice, in a strung out period, but 10X as much??? And anabolic steroids for lip sores??

Edit: Today Aftenposten has changed the article. Yesterday it said that Øystein Pettersen claimed: Jeg hadde ikke anstrengelsesastma eller kuldeastma men gikk ikke til konkurranse uten vanlig astmamedisin på morgenen.
Now they have added: på grunn av min kroniske astma som jeg har hatt fra barndommen

I don't know if it really changes anything. NSF and Sundby has claimed that they haven't used the Nebulisator last season after that he was caught in two tests. Anyhow, in the arguments surrounding this article Lofshus has made it clear they have no intentions to change the practice with treating the skiers with Nebulisator between the races. You also wonder what kind of doses they are using in the Nebulisator?
What is also clear is that Øystein Pettersen clearly states that he used the Nebulisator, with Ventoline and Pulmicourt, despite no other asthmatic problems then his chronical. However a chronical asthma is treated with 4-8 puffs a day and not Nebulisator. Compare the argumentation in Sundby case. THey used the Nebulisator because of an acute worsening of his asthma. It simply doesn't make sense, as nothing coming out of the NSF mouth the last months.

 

[Robert5091]

now that's a team bus!

 

[Discgear]

Re:

now that's a team bus!

It truly is. But the picture that evolves in your mind is quite appauling.

On the second floor behind darkened windows: Johaug, Weng, Flugstad, Bjoergen, Johnsrud Sundby and the other Norse skiers are gathered between the races, crouching underneath towels in front of a bunch of Nebulisators, gasping breath from a steam made of advanced mediaction.

 

[Cloxxki]

They'l have to guard to that truck to not receive some nice graffiti with an update on their ephical conduct. Or better, someone could project something nice on there at night. A lot of work to cover off.

 

[Blaaswix]

Norway's training camp in Italy visited by FIS antidoping today https://www.nrk.no/sport/norske-utovere-vekket-av-dopingjegere-1.13190070 Northug and the Swedes apparently not tested.

 

[python]

the fis president talks tough on the johaug case...doubts the cream story, unhappy about how he was informed, thinks it is 4 years based on what he knows now and ready to appeal if the ban too mild...

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/vi-kommer-til-a-anke-en-mild-straff/63980751

recalling how fis exonerated sundby, i am quite frankly surprised at the tone. but then again, even some norwegians are getting tired of the arrogance of their xc ski fed.

 

[Blaaswix]

Re:

the fis president talks tough on the johaug case...doubts the cream story, unhappy about how he was informed, thinks it is 4 years based on what he knows now and ready to appeal if the ban too mild...

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/vi-kommer-til-a-anke-en-mild-straff/63980751

recalling how fis exonerated sundby, i am quite frankly surprised at the tone. but then again, even some norwegians are getting tired of the arrogance of their xc ski fed.

I think you're right, the FIS are getting tired of the attitude. There is still however a huge amount of cognitive dissonance in Norway surrounding the whole affair. Two athletes busted and so: "the system is unfair, it's not really doping, or ....something.

What is particularly galling is remembering how the Norwegians criticized the Finns for using oxygen masks in training whilst they had the nebulizers installed on the top floor of their waxing truck! The hypocrisy of it is just awful.

 

[dukoff]

Should just point out that Øystein Pettersen has indeed struggled with serious asthma during his career, which has stopped him from many races. That has been well known.

Some references:
https://www.nrk.no/sport/pettersen-knekt-av-astma-1.4673925
http://www.nettavisen.no/sport/1567602.html
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/pettersen-fikk-startnekt/a/185642/
http://www.nettavisen.no/sport/888337.html

 

[sida_mot]

A few Qs about the Johaug case:
Given that the story privided so far is true, would she have had any lasting advantages of a that low dose of clostebol for 10 days? To me this is one of the most important questions but everyone seems focused on if it was intentional or not.

To what detail will the test results be public? Will we get just the concentration or those fascinating metabolites details as well?

That list with medicines that Johaug submitted when she did the test, will there be any comparison made with old lists and the lists of other Norwegian skiers? Would be interesting to see if this was the first and only time this ointment have been used and if there are other possible "cover-ups" in those lists.

Anything else of interest that will be released in the trial?

About the Jonserud-Sundby case:
In a debate between a Swedish journalist and one of the trainers for Norway, the journalist clamed MJS had used 10x the normal dose, NSF retorted it was 75% of the max dose. Anyone can explain how they can provide so different numbers and whats the most plausible one?

 

[python]

^a 1st post. welcome. it seems most of your questions have either been entertained earlier or don't have, in fact CANT HAVE yet, a well considered answers for the simple reason -- the nsf resisted releasing the details. in fact, the fis and the nsf acquittal documents of sundby are a complete secret as of yet. poking a finger in the sky isn't very productive at this stage...imo.

as for the johaug case, we only know small bits of the official story, which even the fis president doubts. again, speculating about the effects of the 'small cream amounts' is a way to lead astray. the official story could be a complete fraud that some scientists, coaches and skiers almost called so...

if you have time, just peruse several pages up...

added: in no way i wanted to discourage other...simply meant that i read as well as personally opined on most of the questions. and in a considerable detail and specifics.

 

[sida_mot]

yes when I tried to log in here for the first time in years I got some message about old account details not been transferred so I created a new one...

Most of my questions have been answered here (yes, I've read all posts made after Johaug news broke) but I still don't have a clear picture of what details that we can expect from the trial. I know and understand perfectly clearly that the NSF doesn't want to share the details. My question was if they will have to at some point and to what detail. Only other doping case I've followed this in depth was the Armstrong one and that was very different due to the whole federal court procedures. Somehow I have a very distinct feeling that we will get a lot less details here...

I understand and respect your scientific approach. Still, for someone with my very limited knowledge about these topics, the comparisons to other roids mean almost nothing. So reasoning about the MSJ dose and the effects of low/moderate doses of clostebol from those with greater knowledge than me would be very interesting to read, even if I understand that it would be very speculative and filled with assumptions.

 

[Tubeless]

Re:

yes when I tried to log in here for the first time in years I got some message about old account details not been transferred so I created a new one...

Most of my questions have been answered here (yes, I've read all posts made after Johaug news broke) but I still don't have a clear picture of what details that we can expect from the trial. I know and understand perfectly clearly that the NSF doesn't want to share the details. My question was if they will have to at some point and to what detail. Only other doping case I've followed this in depth was the Armstrong one and that was very different due to the whole federal court procedures. Somehow I have a very distinct feeling that we will get a lot less details here...

I understand and respect your scientific approach. Still, for someone with my very limited knowledge about these topics, the comparisons to other roids mean almost nothing. So reasoning about the MSJ dose and the effects of low/moderate doses of clostebol from those with greater knowledge than me would be very interesting to read, even if I understand that it would be very speculative and filled with assumptions.

Unlike Sundby's salbutamol test, the test for clostebol (or any steroid) is very simple - any amount found is evidence enough. If the concentration found was tiny, the athlete may have stopped taking the steroid weeks before the test. Sundby had a therapeutic use exemption or TUE for (9.7X smaller amount of) salbutamol. Johaug did not have a TUE for clostebol.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

yes when I tried to log in here for the first time in years I got some message about old account details not been transferred so I created a new one...

Most of my questions have been answered here (yes, I've read all posts made after Johaug news broke) but I still don't have a clear picture of what details that we can expect from the trial. I know and understand perfectly clearly that the NSF doesn't want to share the details. My question was if they will have to at some point and to what detail. Only other doping case I've followed this in depth was the Armstrong one and that was very different due to the whole federal court procedures. Somehow I have a very distinct feeling that we will get a lot less details here...

I understand and respect your scientific approach. Still, for someone with my very limited knowledge about these topics, the comparisons to other roids mean almost nothing. So reasoning about the MSJ dose and the effects of low/moderate doses of clostebol from those with greater knowledge than me would be very interesting to read, even if I understand that it would be very speculative and filled with assumptions.

Unlike Sundby's salbutamol test, the test for clostebol (or any steroid) is very simple - any amount found is evidence enough. If the concentration found was tiny, the athlete may have stopped taking the steroid weeks before the test. Sundby had a therapeutic use exemption or TUE for (9.7X smaller amount of) salbutamol. Johaug did not have a TUE for clostebol.

Were both of Sundby's positive tests 9.7x or not? Also, what does 'smaller mount of,' mean in the case of asthma meds? To my amateur eyes, when I see 9 or 10 times more, I immediately grow suspicious. If it was indeed (somehow) legitimate for him to do it, for example under circumstances of having more problems breathing than normal, I wonder what his other similar test results were.

 

[dukoff]

Johaug case:
Given that the story privided so far is true, would she have had any lasting advantages of a that low dose of clostebol for 10 days?

ADNO made preliminary remarks that the dose was not at performance enhancing level, and consistent with cream application. But of course, you could just as well be on a down-slope from a much earlier injection of a larger dose. So earlier tests with potential below-decision-limit levels of any illegal substance will be looked at to judge the probability of the explanations.

A few Qs about the journalist clamed MJS had used 10x the normal dose, NSF retorted it was 75% of the max dose. Anyone can explain how they can provide so different numbers and whats the most plausible one?

The Norwegian team has used nebulizers for a long time. The nebulizer by design does not transfer the full inserted dose to the patient. First because you don't breathe continuously, but rather 3-4 times per minute, while the unit is consuming and producing a continuous mist. The rest goes out in the air. Secondly you don't typically use up the full amount inserted, so some is left and discarded. While with a standard inhaler, each puff/dose is received to the patient's lungs. The technicalities of these differences are not debated, however the basis of quantification is questioned, whether it is actually 10%, as claimed, or 15%, 20%, is not that well documented, allthough it's very likely in this range.

Still, it obviously depends on the way the nebulizer is used. Simply having a larger dose in the nebulizer opens for the possibility to aquire variable and higher doses, if you use the device aggressively for this purpose.

So, with x10 the normal dose inserted, you can get probably from 5% to 20% of that from normal use, and one can speculate perhaps 40-50% if you made a serious effort.

The negative spin put on the nebulizer per se is really totally unjustified. It's a great way to administer both natural remedies like salt water or essential oils, as well as medication. And if you want to overdose, you can just as easily overdose with a standard inhaler by aggressive use. The choice of the Norwegian team using nebulizer is for comfort, and for the fact that using a standard inhaler is more difficult when you have strong symptoms, as taking deep breaths may be difficult/impossible. For some that can be a difference of being able to compete or not, under certain weather conditions. The nebulizer administer at a much slower rate, compatible with normal breathing.

Again, in the perspective of dose, you must be on top of these details in order not to step wrong. That is, if you were allowed to put this high dose in the nebulizer in the first place. Which we now know, that is not allowed.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

Sundby had a therapeutic use exemption or TUE for (9.7X smaller amount of) salbutamol. Johaug did not have a TUE for clostebol.

sundby got in trouble with the wada appeal exactly b/c he did not have a tue during neither/both tests he failed. he did have one previously. this is one of the most curious moments, WHY he did not have one when it would be a mere formality to get one for a deeply sick asthmatic claiming to suffer since he was 9. i am dying to find out why but the nsf still keeps their acquittal secret preferring me to die

if he had a tue, he could use the nabulazer till his eyes popped out. without the tue, wada argued, and the cas agreed, only a metered dose inhaler was legal. he received a drastically slashed punishment from cas b/c they agreed with the nsf/fis that the wada code 'could be more clear' with some descriptions. like a 'labelled dose' vs. what nsf argued the 'absorbed dose'.

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

yes when I tried to log in here for the first time in years I got some message about old account details not been transferred so I created a new one...

Most of my questions have been answered here (yes, I've read all posts made after Johaug news broke) but I still don't have a clear picture of what details that we can expect from the trial. I know and understand perfectly clearly that the NSF doesn't want to share the details. My question was if they will have to at some point and to what detail. Only other doping case I've followed this in depth was the Armstrong one and that was very different due to the whole federal court procedures. Somehow I have a very distinct feeling that we will get a lot less details here...

I understand and respect your scientific approach. Still, for someone with my very limited knowledge about these topics, the comparisons to other roids mean almost nothing. So reasoning about the MSJ dose and the effects of low/moderate doses of clostebol from those with greater knowledge than me would be very interesting to read, even if I understand that it would be very speculative and filled with assumptions.

Unlike Sundby's salbutamol test, the test for clostebol (or any steroid) is very simple - any amount found is evidence enough. If the concentration found was tiny, the athlete may have stopped taking the steroid weeks before the test. Sundby had a therapeutic use exemption or TUE for (9.7X smaller amount of) salbutamol. Johaug did not have a TUE for clostebol.

You don't need a TUE for salbutamol. Anyone can take up to 1600 μg of salbutamol a day whether they have an asthma diagnosis or not.