Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Boycotting the entire russian squad is not ideal, but I think that when the problem is systemic and endemic like it has proven to be time and again amongst russian athletes, trainers and government, there might not be another way. It seems implausible that there would be clean russian athletes in the Sochi olympics at this point. Of course, if possible, they should investigate each case individually and not do a blanket ban.

It hans't been proven. It's all based off of ONE man currently living in California and has been since 2015. Could you imagine the world functioning like that? I suspect my neighbor of stealing, I can't prove it, but here is my written statement, but I hate him so much...he must be guilty! Police: Yep! You hate him alright! That's good enough for us. Thanks for the evidence! Boom...here's your prison sentence bad neighbor...


Anyway it's always funny to see the Norwegians harping about others, but somehow they are ALWAYS clean, because, you know, they invented skiing, it's a national sport, have the best grinds, training, blah, blah, blah....
What, you think Bjoern Daehlie, Thomas Alsgaard, Bente Skari, Vegard Ulvang, Marit Bjoergen, etc are clean, beating all those doped Russians, Finns, Austrians, Germans, Czechs and whoever else you want to put in there...?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Boycotting the entire russian squad is not ideal, but I think that when the problem is systemic and endemic like it has proven to be time and again amongst russian athletes, trainers and government, there might not be another way. It seems implausible that there would be clean russian athletes in the Sochi olympics at this point. Of course, if possible, they should investigate each case individually and not do a blanket ban.

You mean like they already have been doing on the biathlon? The problem with that is more the time it will take, in relation to Pyeongchang. A couple of cases are cut-and-dried but the athletes have already served their sanctions (Loginov) while other athletes are retired, which makes sanctioning the individual athletes of little value. IIRC with the biathletes, they had said 22 of 32 athletes have either been cleared or have already been sanctioned for the offences noted in the report (Starykh, Iourieva, Loginov), 3 are suspended (Romanova, Vilukhina, Glazyrina) and so there's only 7 remaining under investigation. The most interesting case will be Timofey Lapshin, he's mentioned in the docs but he isn't representing Russia anymore, having transferred to South Korea last season. Would the hosts risk having an athlete yanked mid-Games though, even if they can then dismiss him as an opportunist ex-Russian?

The problem is, the numbers are big, but if you dig deeper into what the report says, it's far from conclusive that the team or individuals themselves were doping. They may well have been, but conclusive evidence that would stand up enough to ban them is difficult. Some athletes are included whose only sin as far as the tests are concerned was to be tested as part of a group on a day when some of the tests went missing, so they may have benefited from the system - some of these at smaller events or team camps may have been conscious dry runs for Sochi, some of these may have been overly cautious handling of samples that wouldn't have tripped the wire in response to the Starykh and Iourieva positives, and so defining which of the athletes were expressly in on the deceit and which were not could be a process far too arduous to get everybody's case considered before Pyeongchang. I don't favour the nuclear option of banning the team from competing, as I can readily imagine that unless individual athletes are sanctioned, most of them could do as Lapshin has done and find another nation willing to take them on in order to continue to compete - there are already myriad Russian-born athletes competing for Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia, Kazakhstan, South Korea and even Sweden - which both fails to sanction the individual cheats and also both hamstrings athletes from other nations from the chance to compete at the top level, and any potentially clean athletes from Russia from the chance to represent their country.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Boycotting the entire russian squad is not ideal, but I think that when the problem is systemic and endemic like it has proven to be time and again amongst russian athletes, trainers and government, there might not be another way. It seems implausible that there would be clean russian athletes in the Sochi olympics at this point. Of course, if possible, they should investigate each case individually and not do a blanket ban.

You mean like they already have been doing on the biathlon? The problem with that is more the time it will take, in relation to Pyeongchang. A couple of cases are cut-and-dried but the athletes have already served their sanctions (Loginov) while other athletes are retired, which makes sanctioning the individual athletes of little value. IIRC with the biathletes, they had said 22 of 32 athletes have either been cleared or have already been sanctioned for the offences noted in the report (Starykh, Iourieva, Loginov), 3 are suspended (Romanova, Vilukhina, Glazyrina) and so there's only 7 remaining under investigation. The most interesting case will be Timofey Lapshin, he's mentioned in the docs but he isn't representing Russia anymore, having transferred to South Korea last season. Would the hosts risk having an athlete yanked mid-Games though, even if they can then dismiss him as an opportunist ex-Russian?

The problem is, the numbers are big, but if you dig deeper into what the report says, it's far from conclusive that the team or individuals themselves were doping. They may well have been, but conclusive evidence that would stand up enough to ban them is difficult. Some athletes are included whose only sin as far as the tests are concerned was to be tested as part of a group on a day when some of the tests went missing, so they may have benefited from the system - some of these at smaller events or team camps may have been conscious dry runs for Sochi, some of these may have been overly cautious handling of samples that wouldn't have tripped the wire in response to the Starykh and Iourieva positives, and so defining which of the athletes were expressly in on the deceit and which were not could be a process far too arduous to get everybody's case considered before Pyeongchang. I don't favour the nuclear option of banning the team from competing, as I can readily imagine that unless individual athletes are sanctioned, most of them could do as Lapshin has done and find another nation willing to take them on in order to continue to compete - there are already myriad Russian-born athletes competing for Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia, Kazakhstan, South Korea and even Sweden - which both fails to sanction the individual cheats and also both hamstrings athletes from other nations from the chance to compete at the top level, and any potentially clean athletes from Russia from the chance to represent their country.

Plus the IBU needs Russia to compete. There are always Russian sponsors in biathlon, the fans from that country come in big numbers in other countries: Scandinavia, Finland, Germany and Austria...the Tyumen facility is huge from what I have seen, and they've held the 'Champions Race' in April a few times already (Fourcade, Bjoerndalen, Northug, Wierer, Boe brothers, etc have all come at one or more editions), the viewership is big in Russia, so the IBU would be losing a ton fans...

FIS won't lose as much if the Russians are not competing, but the effects will still be felt. I think both the IBU and FIS are reluctant, for the most part, to give a blanket ban, but this time around, especially with 6 of the XC skiers not allowed to compete in Korea (CAS already ruled they are free to compete post nov 1 if no new evidence was found...) it could be a real possibility, plus, as I mentioned already, politics is playing a stronger role. The North Americans are yapping even more. The Europeans are generally more quiet, more modest, but that's to be expected. Anyway, as you say, there simply isn't conclusive evidence of doping, or tampering or whatever the problem was that McLaren tried and is still tying to manufacture, but there is some serious anti-Russian sentiment led by the US on all fronts and it's putting FIS and the IBU's feet to the fire.

Some very interesting words from Wassberg, Sundby, and Krogh. Not necessarily defending the Russians, but a very diplomatic and reasonable comments.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

Boycotting the entire [nation] squad is not ideal, but I think that when the problem is systemic and endemic like it has proven to be time and again amongst [nation] athletes, trainers and government, there might not be another way.

Nation of choice.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

In Norway, the skiers are the top athletes in the country, it’s where all the money and fame is. Norwegian skier Kristin Stormer Steria won the national 10k track championship with minimal specialized training. In the rest of the world it would be the other way around.

Well, that just might mean they have bad track athletes.

Anyway you are not right, in Czech republic there xc skier is beating track runners too.

Czech Republic skier won the national championship in track and field? Which skier, which event? Link? Not that I don’t believe you, but they’re not exactly dominating skiing lately, Lukas Bauer still the best at 39 or something.

Eva Vrabcová - Nývltová.

"Yeah, they’re pretty bad, because the good athletes are skiers." Well, if runners are bad, what exactly did you want to say by that?

Trolling or serious? The good athletes are skiers, the next best are track and field, hence, the skiers sometimes win track and field with little specialized training. I think that’s quite clear?

I couldn’t find much about Eva Vrabcová-Nývltová other than the fact that she is a b-tier skier and a marathon runner, couldn’t find any national championship wins in either discipline, link?

No trolling. I mean what did you want to say by that in the context of VO2max. debate, that really is not clear.

Eva Vrabcová is best half-marathon and marathon runner (in Czech republic) and that is track and field.

 

[Barkintheeye]

It is all apparent that Sundby along w the doped Russians is a very suspicious case. Further, Cologna, Johan Olsson and a few others also place in that category while I truly believe in skiers like for example Andets Sodergren. Bjoergen is a special case on its own right. She and Usain Bolt... the two biggest ever?


Makes you not want to watch xc skiing anymore.

 

[Knutsen]

Re:

Makes you not want to watch xc skiing anymore.

I think xc-skiing can live with that.

 

[BullsFan22]

Rasmus Damsgaard has an interesting take on the Russian scandal:

https://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/vintersport/FIS-lege-kritisk-til-McLaren-rapporten--Antidopingarbeidet-er-pa-vei-i-feil-retning-245801b.html

 

[jsem94]

Wtf was that from Klaebo? Lmao. He's toying with everyone at age 21 in one of the sickest performances I've ever seen from anyone in a sprint.

 

[RattaKuningas]

Re:

Wtf was that from Klaebo? Lmao. He's toying with everyone at age 21 in one of the sickest performances I've ever seen from anyone in a sprint.

Not really surprising though because he was very good in the sprint during the last season as well. His classic is really good and I think that this track suited him.

 

[WallaB]

Sundby again in ethical trouble in Norwegian media expressing sympathy with the Russian athletes suspension without positive tests.

https://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/doping/armstrongs-overmann-om-sundby-utspill-utdatert/a/24196522/


In the past Sundby has expressed admiration for Armstrong, but was forced to moderate and repeat the compulsory statements regarding doping etc.

The same kind of attitude is shared by Ole Einar Bjørndalen btw.

So grey areas for these guys is not troubling at all it seems.

 

[Rider]

Re:

Funny how the Russians are afforded such credulity here, the most infamous and documented cheaters in the world since the 60’s. Meanwhile, any other country would be absolutely thrashed with similar accusations. I realize that supporting a minority narrative is the edgy choice, but there’s no reason to protect a corrupt system.

You hardly following the sport.
Really useless to spend time answering such stupid post but try to google:
- DDR doping
- doping in baseball
- Bulgary and doping in weightlifting
- history of blood values of norwegian skiers.

Russia participates in all 3 olympic disciplines of horseback riding for 60 years with many gold medals and never ever was a single case of horse doping in Russian team. The only Norwegian Olympic medal in show-jumping (bronze in Seoul) turned out to be a doping case.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Funny how the Russians are afforded such credulity here, the most infamous and documented cheaters in the world since the 60’s. Meanwhile, any other country would be absolutely thrashed with similar accusations. I realize that supporting a minority narrative is the edgy choice, but there’s no reason to protect a corrupt system.

You hardly following the sport.
Really useless to spend time answering such stupid post but try to google:
- DDR doping
- doping in baseball
- Bulgary and doping in weightlifting
- history of blood values of norwegian skiers.

Russia participates in all 3 olympic disciplines of horseback riding for 60 years with many gold medals and never ever was a single case of horse doping in Russian team. The only Norwegian Olympic medal in show-jumping (bronze in Seoul) turned out to be a doping case.

Add in doping in American Football. Also the fact that WADA doesn't go anywhere near A. football and baseball. Just look at the Mitchell report that came out in December 2007.

And if we are going to put a blanket ban on the Russians for allegedly tampering with samples or sweeping positive tests under the rug...why didn't we do the same when the USOC was doing exactly the same in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html


Nobody here is saying that the Russians don't have or haven't had problems with doping, that's just nonsense. What is being discussed is extreme hypocrisy and double standards. Quite frankly, that's something that's been discussed in virtually every clinic topic I've spent time reading. So it's par for the course and it's absolutely in the wheel house.

This above is directed towards the Norwegian(s) in the thread, not to you Yaco!

 

[BullsFan22]

And some interesting anti-doping testing numbers from FIS:

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/Medical/10/92/69/FISAnti-DopingTestingFiguresSeptOct2017_Neutral.pdf

 

[yaco]

Ah ! I receive a mention in a thread in which I doubt, I've ever posted - I have little or no knowledge of Winter Sports !

 

[Rider]

But everything changes when russian athlete starts to compete for another country.
Kristina Shaldybina was born in US but their parents returned to Russia where she went for gymnastic. When she was 11 the family emigrated in US.

Before Rio Shaldybina was caught with diuretic. USADA decided that diuretic was from the tap water, very convenient, huh?

All the clean sport lovers from States, Canada, Britain, Czech Republic, Norway, ... somehow did not notice this absolutely disgusting case and kept their mouths shut.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Ah ! I receive a mention in a thread in which I doubt, I've ever posted - I have little or no knowledge of Winter Sports !

Doh!! My sincerely apology Yaco!!! I completely lost my mind. I have no idea what was going on in my head. Must be getting old and seeing things.... SORRY!!!!

 

[Random Direction]

Re: Re:

Funny how the Russians are afforded such credulity here, the most infamous and documented cheaters in the world since the 60’s. Meanwhile, any other country would be absolutely thrashed with similar accusations. I realize that supporting a minority narrative is the edgy choice, but there’s no reason to protect a corrupt system.

You hardly following the sport.
Really useless to spend time answering such stupid post but try to google:
- DDR doping
- doping in baseball
- Bulgary and doping in weightlifting
- history of blood values of norwegian skiers.

Russia participates in all 3 olympic disciplines of horseback riding for 60 years with many gold medals and never ever was a single case of horse doping in Russian team. The only Norwegian Olympic medal in show-jumping (bronze in Seoul) turned out to be a doping case.

Add in doping in American Football. Also the fact that WADA doesn't go anywhere near A. football and baseball. Just look at the Mitchell report that came out in December 2007.

And if we are going to put a blanket ban on the Russians for allegedly tampering with samples or sweeping positive tests under the rug...why didn't we do the same when the USOC was doing exactly the same in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html


Nobody here is saying that the Russians don't have or haven't had problems with doping, that's just nonsense. What is being discussed is extreme hypocrisy and double standards. Quite frankly, that's something that's been discussed in virtually every clinic topic I've spent time reading. So it's par for the course and it's absolutely in the wheel house.

This above is directed towards the Norwegian(s) in the thread, not to you Yaco!

You forgot the cesspool that is the NHL. and US college sports. If the NHL and NFL had to pay for the societal costs of concussions, in part caused by excessive steroids and Hgh they would probably be bankrupt now.

That said, state sponsored and state run like the russians did is rare now. In the US it would be done by free enterprise and in Canada in someone's TV room.

 

[Shardi]

So the Russians lot are not allowed to start in Lillehammer this weekend, yet they are looming around in the hotel lobbys..


https://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/ryssar-stangs-av-fran-varldscupen/

 

[BullsFan22]

So the Russians lot are not allowed to start in Lillehammer this weekend, yet they are looming around in the hotel lobbys..


https://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/ryssar-stangs-av-fran-varldscupen/

They were 'looming' because FIS allowed them to compete from November 1st, since neither WADA nor the IOC came out with more 'evidence.' That was CAS's ruling. They were allowed to compete and would have competed in Lillehammer until FIS read 'some more evidence....' It's crazy how Damsgaard, the head FIS anti doping chief says there is a lack of evidence and he found it strange, to how all of a sudden 'FIS are shocked...' It's clear that FIS is bowing down to their IOC overlords and IOC are bowing to their overlords...Banning skiers because one man who now lives in a land that's been feeding him money said he exchanged samples....wow...That's a heck of a way to do anti-doping, if we can call it 'anti-doping...'

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Funny how the Russians are afforded such credulity here, the most infamous and documented cheaters in the world since the 60’s. Meanwhile, any other country would be absolutely thrashed with similar accusations. I realize that supporting a minority narrative is the edgy choice, but there’s no reason to protect a corrupt system.

You hardly following the sport.
Really useless to spend time answering such stupid post but try to google:
- DDR doping
- doping in baseball
- Bulgary and doping in weightlifting
- history of blood values of norwegian skiers.

Russia participates in all 3 olympic disciplines of horseback riding for 60 years with many gold medals and never ever was a single case of horse doping in Russian team. The only Norwegian Olympic medal in show-jumping (bronze in Seoul) turned out to be a doping case.

Add in doping in American Football. Also the fact that WADA doesn't go anywhere near A. football and baseball. Just look at the Mitchell report that came out in December 2007.

And if we are going to put a blanket ban on the Russians for allegedly tampering with samples or sweeping positive tests under the rug...why didn't we do the same when the USOC was doing exactly the same in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html


Nobody here is saying that the Russians don't have or haven't had problems with doping, that's just nonsense. What is being discussed is extreme hypocrisy and double standards. Quite frankly, that's something that's been discussed in virtually every clinic topic I've spent time reading. So it's par for the course and it's absolutely in the wheel house.

This above is directed towards the Norwegian(s) in the thread, not to you Yaco!

You are arguing something nobody said; nobody said that someone says Russians don't have or haven't had problems with doping. Why are you doing that. Such kind of overreacting just shows what is Oude Geuze hinting.

You Bullsfan22 have very clear double standards for Norwegians and for Russians, that's pretty clear.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

https://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/vintersport/russisk-landslagstrener-antyder-at-ol-mester-har-doping-sladret-paa-kompisene/a/24184516/

now one of their present national team coaches (!) accused chernusov of being an anonymous informant for wada

i can fully imagine the rodchenkov's drive (including some personal experience with the scoundrel) but chernusov ? :surprised:

even if one makes an allowance for him selfishly wanting the olympic gold AFTER vyleg and lego were DQ-ed, it does not jive with several considerations. like if it was a team-wide doping, cherno as one of their strongest assets would have also been 'found'. or it does not connect with how he and vyleg lifted lego into the air soon after alex won the sochi gold. besides, him and lego were known to have a close personal friendship before and particularly during their work with reto and isabel.

but nowadays one cant be sure in anything. particularly b/c cherno fits a different mold from the rest of their team. he is married to a swiss, speaks fluent english and solid german, does not live in russia and even looks more like a sicilian with his dark complexion than a typical blue-eyed russian ....ratting or not, i have a good opinion of cherno as an athlete and a person.

Rodchenkov is a scoundrel, of that there is no doubt.

Why is Rodchenkov scoundrel? Because he told the truth?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

https://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/vintersport/russisk-landslagstrener-antyder-at-ol-mester-har-doping-sladret-paa-kompisene/a/24184516/

now one of their present national team coaches (!) accused chernusov of being an anonymous informant for wada

i can fully imagine the rodchenkov's drive (including some personal experience with the scoundrel) but chernusov ? :surprised:

even if one makes an allowance for him selfishly wanting the olympic gold AFTER vyleg and lego were DQ-ed, it does not jive with several considerations. like if it was a team-wide doping, cherno as one of their strongest assets would have also been 'found'. or it does not connect with how he and vyleg lifted lego into the air soon after alex won the sochi gold. besides, him and lego were known to have a close personal friendship before and particularly during their work with reto and isabel.

but nowadays one cant be sure in anything. particularly b/c cherno fits a different mold from the rest of their team. he is married to a swiss, speaks fluent english and solid german, does not live in russia and even looks more like a sicilian with his dark complexion than a typical blue-eyed russian ....ratting or not, i have a good opinion of cherno as an athlete and a person.

Rodchenkov is a scoundrel, of that there is no doubt.

Why is Rodchenkov scoundrel? Because he told the truth?

What truth? The guy exchanged doping samples because he wasn't getting paid. He obviously had it for some people. He was working in this field for almost 30 years, if he was so 'anti-doping' and concerned about 'clean' sport he would have done something much earlier. He admitted to fraud, blamed his wife and then ran. Should I go on?

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

https://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/vintersport/russisk-landslagstrener-antyder-at-ol-mester-har-doping-sladret-paa-kompisene/a/24184516/

now one of their present national team coaches (!) accused chernusov of being an anonymous informant for wada

i can fully imagine the rodchenkov's drive (including some personal experience with the scoundrel) but chernusov ? :surprised:

even if one makes an allowance for him selfishly wanting the olympic gold AFTER vyleg and lego were DQ-ed, it does not jive with several considerations. like if it was a team-wide doping, cherno as one of their strongest assets would have also been 'found'. or it does not connect with how he and vyleg lifted lego into the air soon after alex won the sochi gold. besides, him and lego were known to have a close personal friendship before and particularly during their work with reto and isabel.

but nowadays one cant be sure in anything. particularly b/c cherno fits a different mold from the rest of their team. he is married to a swiss, speaks fluent english and solid german, does not live in russia and even looks more like a sicilian with his dark complexion than a typical blue-eyed russian ....ratting or not, i have a good opinion of cherno as an athlete and a person.

Rodchenkov is a scoundrel, of that there is no doubt.

Why is Rodchenkov scoundrel? Because he told the truth?

What truth? The guy exchanged doping samples because he wasn't getting paid. He obviously had it for some people. He was working in this field for almost 30 years, if he was so 'anti-doping' and concerned about 'clean' sport he would have done something much earlier. He admitted to fraud, blamed his wife and then ran. Should I go on?

The truth that Russians are doping and manipulating samples.

I know that you know that you have double standard; you chose not to deny that, so...my point was already proven. Are you Russian?

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

https://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/vintersport/russisk-landslagstrener-antyder-at-ol-mester-har-doping-sladret-paa-kompisene/a/24184516/

now one of their present national team coaches (!) accused chernusov of being an anonymous informant for wada

i can fully imagine the rodchenkov's drive (including some personal experience with the scoundrel) but chernusov ? :surprised:

even if one makes an allowance for him selfishly wanting the olympic gold AFTER vyleg and lego were DQ-ed, it does not jive with several considerations. like if it was a team-wide doping, cherno as one of their strongest assets would have also been 'found'. or it does not connect with how he and vyleg lifted lego into the air soon after alex won the sochi gold. besides, him and lego were known to have a close personal friendship before and particularly during their work with reto and isabel.

but nowadays one cant be sure in anything. particularly b/c cherno fits a different mold from the rest of their team. he is married to a swiss, speaks fluent english and solid german, does not live in russia and even looks more like a sicilian with his dark complexion than a typical blue-eyed russian ....ratting or not, i have a good opinion of cherno as an athlete and a person.

Rodchenkov is a scoundrel, of that there is no doubt.

Why is Rodchenkov scoundrel? Because he told the truth?

What truth? The guy exchanged doping samples because he wasn't getting paid. He obviously had it for some people. He was working in this field for almost 30 years, if he was so 'anti-doping' and concerned about 'clean' sport he would have done something much earlier. He admitted to fraud, blamed his wife and then ran. Should I go on?

I don't think he has said to be conserned about clean sport. As far as I've understood, he openly admitted to have been part of the cover up for ages as the head of doping clinic in a way i.e. consulting the athletes when to start and stop using stuff to not get caught.