Downhill Showdown: Liquigas vs. BMC TdF 2012

[El Pistolero]

It was awesomme team work. When it comes to teamwork they are the best, no one overperforms in tts like they do and they have the 9 straigt gts no withdrawals record.

FRor this reason people expect Liquigas to work as a team and do well in descents.

Also how many times to teams get the opportunity to show a team descent. Very very few. Liqui got the chance and they showed it, which is why they are obliterating this poll.

As for Nibali well theres the Monte Grappa stage. 1 of the people who couldnt catch him was, well look at the poll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yISN7pgfCtY

As for the withdrawel thing, that's irrelevant. Pure luck.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I'm glad to see El P is now back tracking from writing Sagan off permanently.
As for not "being there" at La Vuelta, I would suggest that he was certainly there in Cordoba, Pontevedia and Madrid.

Pure luck.

There you go again: opinion as fact.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm glad to see El P is now back tracking from writing Sagan off permanently.
As for not "being there" at La Vuelta, I would suggest that he was certainly there in Cordoba, Pontevedia and Madrid.

I never wrote of Sagan permanently, where did I do that?

And all of these stages you mention were flat except Pontevedia. I never said Sagan was crap at the entire Vuelta, just on the more hilly and mountainous stages. I'm clearly talking about stages like in the Tour this year. Those are some serious hills/mountains and will be ridden even harder than in the Vuelta. This is a thread about the Tour of 2012 and I never said anything about Sagan never being good enough, etc

I'm just sticking to the topic of the thread: the Tour of 2012. Nibali might well out-descend Evans, but all of his team will have dropped by then and he'll have to do it alone

Not sure if you're reading any of my posts or just assuming I hate Sagan. He's a great cyclist(and can cyclo-cross), but let's be realistic: he's only 21 years old, it's only normal he can't climb with the big boys yet. Not that Sagan is normal, but you get my grip.

 

[Mambo95]

Nibali, Sagan and Capecchi vs. Evans, Hushovd and Gilbert
These two teams can do a lot of damage on these stages against RSNT and Sky.

Sky are no mugs. They've got the likes of Eisel and EBH, for example, who are top notch descenders, too. (Those two ski. A lot of top descenders ski). Maybe they won't be their at the end of those stages, but maybe some of the riders you mention will be either.

 

[El Pistolero]

Mellow Velo


There you go again: opinion as fact.

So if a rider from a team gets blown of his bike by a heavy gust of wind and is forced to abandon the race does that means his team doesn't work well together? That's just silly. Yes, Liquigas work well together as a team(I never denied that), but that's not the reason why they have finished 9 GTs with their entire team intact. That's pure luck. There's no correlation between finishing your GT with an entire team and good team-work. Hitch should have used their TTTs as evidence instead of this irrelevant statistic.

 

[El Pistolero]

Sky are no mugs. They've got the likes of Eisel and EBH, for example, who are top notch descenders, too. (Those two ski. A lot of top descenders ski). Maybe they won't be their at the end of those stages, but maybe some of the riders you mention will be either.

Lol... Cavendish is also a good descender, but he won't be up there anymore. EBH might make it up there on some stages though.

 

[The Hitch]

So if a rider from a team gets blown of his bike by a heavy gust of wind and is forced to abandon the race does that means his team doesn't work well together? That's just silly. Yes, Liquigas work well together as a team(I never denied that), but that's not the reason why they have finished 9 GTs with their entire team intact. That's pure luck. There's no correlation between finishing your GT with an entire team and good team-work.

You just gave a "its not their fault if they lose" analogy to argue for a " they don't deserve credit if they win" situation.

Do you honestly not see the difference

 

[El Pistolero]

You just gave a "its not their fault if they lose" analogy to argue for a " they don't deserve credit if they win" situation.

Do you honestly not see the difference

What did Liqui win this year in the Giro(a stage from a breakaway, I know) and Tour? I barely saw them there. Like I said, just because you finish with an entire team intact doesn't mean you worked well together as a team.

Why would you deserve credit for something that's luck? When a rider crashes, it's mostly not their fault.

 

[Mellow Velo]

You just gave a "its not their fault if they lose" analogy to argue for a " they don't deserve credit if they win" situation.

Do you honestly not see the difference

Apparently not.

Not many around here would argue that luck doesn't play it's part during the course of a race, but to argue, or even suggest that it's the only factor.....

What did Liqui win this year in the Giro(a stage from a breakaway, I know) and Tour? I barely saw them there. Like I said, just because you finish with an entire team intact doesn't mean you worked well together as a team.

Now you choose to be selective.
Over the course of NINE GTs, have they had any success? (apart from Sagan's 3 stage wins at the Vuelta )

 

[Mambo95]

Lol... Cavendish is also a good descender, but he won't be up there anymore. EBH might make it up there on some stages though.

As I said, they may not be their when it matters, but that goes for the descenders from the other teams too. (Eisel is meant to be absolutely exceptional though).

I can't see any team pulling off a coup like Liguigas did at the Vuelta. #vueltaisnotthetour

 

[El Pistolero]

Apparently not.

Not many around here would argue that luck doesn't play it's part during the course of a race, but to argue, or even suggest that it's the only factor.....



Now you choose to be selective.
Over the course of NINE GTs, have they had any success? (apart from Sagan's 3 stage wins at the Vuelta )

The only way you can completely avoid crashes is by riding up front in the peloton every single day like HTC, but also on mountain stages. Unless they did that, it was luck.

I'm just saying, there's much better evidence you can use to prove a team works well together. Like team time trials, that stage in the Vuelta, etc

I'm not denying here they work well together I just wouldn't use that statistic as my main evidence for it. They won't be a bad team all of a sudden because Basso breaks his collarbone during the Giro next year

 

[Panda Claws]

Thor for sure won't make it over but Gilbert could, although he would suffer major fatigue the next few days, being useless, so it would have to be wise enough for him to make the sacrifice worthwhile.

Yeah is recuperation is crap.

 

[El Pistolero]

As I said, they may not be their when it matters, but that goes for the descenders from the other teams too. (Eisel is meant to be absolutely exceptional though).

I can't see any team pulling off a coup like Liguigas did at the Vuelta. #vueltaisnotthetour

Well, there we agree.

 

[The Hitch]

What did Liqui win this year in the Giro(a stage from a breakaway, I know) and Tour? I barely saw them there. Like I said, just because you finish with an entire team intact doesn't mean you worked well together as a team.

No you said that if a rider gets blown away by a hurricane thats not the teams fault and then proceeded to act as if this dumb analogy proves that Liquigas don't deserve any credit for their gt streak.

 

[El Pistolero]

No you said that if a rider gets blown away by a hurricane thats not the teams fault and then proceeded to act as if this dumb analogy proves that Liquigas don't deserve any credit for their gt streak.

I don't think it's proof for the fact that they're working well together. The biggest factor in that streak is in my opinion luck. I never said they didn't deserve any credit for it. Merely saying their is no correlation between working together as a team and finishing with your full team intact at the end of a GT. Was it not Gesink who crashed when he was "protected" by his entire team during the Tour? Was that Rabobank's fault? No, it was not.

 

[aarnold517]

I don't think it's proof for the fact that they're working well together. The biggest factor in that streak is in my opinion luck. I never said they didn't deserve any credit for it. Merely saying their is no correlation between working together as a team and finishing with your full team intact at the end of a GT. Was it not Gesink who crashed when he was "protected" by his entire team during the Tour? Was that Rabobank's fault? No, it was not.

I don't think hitch was quoting the 9 straight GT record solely to prove that they work well together. What I think it shows is that every member of a liquigas GT team is strong, has good bike handling skills to avoid a crash, and knows how to position themselves in a peloton. Each of these are relevant in the OP's question concerning which of the teams would be better at a team descent. (And yes, they had to have some luck in avoiding crashes, but it isn't the only factor in their impressive streak)

 

[auscyclefan94]

Gilbert and Evans' EPIC descent in 2009 Tour of Romandie >> Must watch!

 

[The Hitch]

Gilbert and Evans' EPIC descent in 2009 Tour of Romandie >> Must watch!

Yes.

Its already been posted.

That video is the only reason why I consider both Gilbert and EVans to be out of this world descenders. ITs truly special.

But they arent as good as Nibalil.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes.

Its already been posted.

That video is the only reason why I consider both Gilbert and EVans to be out of this world descenders. ITs truly special.

But they arent as good as Nibalil.

Indeed, Phil isn't as good as Nibali. He's much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRi8v7fI6Do&feature=related

 

[The Hitch]

Indeed, Phil isn't as good as Nibali. He's much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRi8v7fI6Do&feature=related

****ing Ivan Basso can outdescend Nibali when Nibali crashes.

 

[El Pistolero]

****ing Ivan Basso can outdescend Nibali when Nibali crashes.

People make mistakes in descends because they're put under pressure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1aRxBPd3uc

How about this then? You can't actually see the descend, but he did take 2.30 minutes on the peloton in the Tourmalet descend.

 

[The Hitch]

Was it not Gesink who crashed when he was "protected" by his entire team during the Tour? Was that Rabobank's fault? No, it was not.

Ive just told you your analogy is false and so now you give me an example which makes the very same error.

You keep giving me examples of riders doing badly and saying its not the teams fault.

But The fact that its not a teams fault when a rider crashes does not mean teamwork didnt play a part when a gt is finished with 9 men.

The fact that there isnt a correlation for the negative doesn't mean there isnt a correlation for the positive.

Its like arguing that because Gesink came 50th in the Tour there is no correlation between being a great climber and doing well at the TOur.

 

[The Hitch]

People make mistakes in descends because they're put under pressure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1aRxBPd3uc

How about this then? You can't actually see the descend, but he did take 2.30 minutes on the peloton in the Tourmalet descend.

Andy Schleck took time on everyone on the Iozard descent.

That makes him a world class descender under your logic.

(But of course you hate Andy Schleck so you are going to give me an explanation that it was cos they let him)

And to save myself a post I will tell you now that the response to that is that its the same for GIlbert.

So decide. Either Andy is a world class descender or Gilbert isnt. Either one is going to hurt I know but you have to choose one

 

[ElChingon]

These guys

Inclusion of the Movistar rider sealed my vote

I just hope the Schleck protest doesn't factor in this time. (first to add Schleck in the thread)

 

[dlwssonic]

These teams can work together. But I don't think nibali is a top contender for the tdf 2012.