- Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yISN7pgfCtY
As for the withdrawel thing, that's irrelevant. Pure luck.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yISN7pgfCtY
As for the withdrawel thing, that's irrelevant. Pure luck.
- Mar 11, 2009
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I'm glad to see El P is now back tracking from writing Sagan off permanently.
As for not "being there" at La Vuelta, I would suggest that he was certainly there in Cordoba, Pontevedia and Madrid.
There you go again: opinion as fact.
As for not "being there" at La Vuelta, I would suggest that he was certainly there in Cordoba, Pontevedia and Madrid.
El Pistolero said:
There you go again: opinion as fact.
- Jul 16, 2010
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Mellow Velo said:
I never wrote of Sagan permanently, where did I do that?
And all of these stages you mention were flat except Pontevedia. I never said Sagan was crap at the entire Vuelta, just on the more hilly and mountainous stages. I'm clearly talking about stages like in the Tour this year. Those are some serious hills/mountains and will be ridden even harder than in the Vuelta. This is a thread about the Tour of 2012 and I never said anything about Sagan never being good enough, etc
I'm just sticking to the topic of the thread: the Tour of 2012. Nibali might well out-descend Evans, but all of his team will have dropped by then and he'll have to do it alone
Not sure if you're reading any of my posts or just assuming I hate Sagan. He's a great cyclist(and can cyclo-cross), but let's be realistic: he's only 21 years old, it's only normal he can't climb with the big boys yet. Not that Sagan is normal, but you get my grip.
cineteq said:
Sky are no mugs. They've got the likes of Eisel and EBH, for example, who are top notch descenders, too. (Those two ski. A lot of top descenders ski). Maybe they won't be their at the end of those stages, but maybe some of the riders you mention will be either.
- Jul 16, 2010
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So if a rider from a team gets blown of his bike by a heavy gust of wind and is forced to abandon the race does that means his team doesn't work well together? That's just silly. Yes, Liquigas work well together as a team(I never denied that), but that's not the reason why they have finished 9 GTs with their entire team intact. That's pure luck. There's no correlation between finishing your GT with an entire team and good team-work. Hitch should have used their TTTs as evidence instead of this irrelevant statistic.
- Jul 16, 2010
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Mambo95 said:
Lol... Cavendish is also a good descender, but he won't be up there anymore. EBH might make it up there on some stages though.
- Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:You just gave a "its not their fault if they lose" analogy to argue for a " they don't deserve credit if they win" situation.
Do you honestly not see the difference
What did Liqui win this year in the Giro(a stage from a breakaway, I know) and Tour? I barely saw them there. Like I said, just because you finish with an entire team intact doesn't mean you worked well together as a team.
Why would you deserve credit for something that's luck? When a rider crashes, it's mostly not their fault.
- Mar 11, 2009
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The Hitch said:You just gave a "its not their fault if they lose" analogy to argue for a " they don't deserve credit if they win" situation.
Do you honestly not see the difference
Apparently not.
Not many around here would argue that luck doesn't play it's part during the course of a race, but to argue, or even suggest that it's the only factor.....
El Pistolero said:
Now you choose to be selective.
Over the course of NINE GTs, have they had any success? (apart from Sagan's 3 stage wins at the Vuelta
)El Pistolero said:
As I said, they may not be their when it matters, but that goes for the descenders from the other teams too. (Eisel is meant to be absolutely exceptional though).
I can't see any team pulling off a coup like Liguigas did at the Vuelta. #vueltaisnotthetour
- Jul 16, 2010
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Mellow Velo said:Apparently not.
Not many around here would argue that luck doesn't play it's part during the course of a race, but to argue, or even suggest that it's the only factor.....
Now you choose to be selective.
Over the course of NINE GTs, have they had any success? (apart from Sagan's 3 stage wins at the Vuelta
The only way you can completely avoid crashes is by riding up front in the peloton every single day like HTC, but also on mountain stages. Unless they did that, it was luck.
I'm just saying, there's much better evidence you can use to prove a team works well together. Like team time trials, that stage in the Vuelta, etc
I'm not denying here they work well together
I just wouldn't use that statistic as my main evidence for it. They won't be a bad team all of a sudden because Basso breaks his collarbone during the Giro next year 
- Aug 29, 2011
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The Hitch said:
I don't think it's proof for the fact that they're working well together. The biggest factor in that streak is in my opinion luck. I never said they didn't deserve any credit for it. Merely saying their is no correlation between working together as a team and finishing with your full team intact at the end of a GT. Was it not Gesink who crashed when he was "protected" by his entire team during the Tour? Was that Rabobank's fault? No, it was not.
- Mar 18, 2009
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El Pistolero said:
I don't think hitch was quoting the 9 straight GT record solely to prove that they work well together. What I think it shows is that every member of a liquigas GT team is strong, has good bike handling skills to avoid a crash, and knows how to position themselves in a peloton. Each of these are relevant in the OP's question concerning which of the teams would be better at a team descent. (And yes, they had to have some luck in avoiding crashes, but it isn't the only factor in their impressive streak)
- Jun 16, 2009
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The Hitch said:
Indeed, Phil isn't as good as Nibali. He's much better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRi8v7fI6Do&feature=related
- Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
People make mistakes in descends because they're put under pressure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1aRxBPd3uc
How about this then? You can't actually see the descend, but he did take 2.30 minutes on the peloton in the Tourmalet descend.
- Jun 14, 2010
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El Pistolero said:
Ive just told you your analogy is false and so now you give me an example which makes the very same error.
You keep giving me examples of riders doing badly and saying its not the teams fault.
But The fact that its not a teams fault when a rider crashes does not mean teamwork didnt play a part when a gt is finished with 9 men.
The fact that there isnt a correlation for the negative doesn't mean there isnt a correlation for the positive.
Its like arguing that because Gesink came 50th in the Tour there is no correlation between being a great climber and doing well at the TOur.
- Jun 14, 2010
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El Pistolero said:
Andy Schleck took time on everyone on the Iozard descent.
That makes him a world class descender under your logic.
(But of course you hate Andy Schleck so you are going to give me an explanation that it was cos they let him)
And to save myself a post I will tell you now that the response to that is that its the same for GIlbert.
So decide. Either Andy is a world class descender or Gilbert isnt. Either one is going to hurt I know but you have to choose one
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