Downhill Showdown: Liquigas vs. BMC TdF 2012

[on3m@n@rmy]

This is a 3 man team, right? So the clock would not stop until the last guy crossed the finish line. Team only as strong as the weakest link. Sorry team Nibs.

 

[El Pistolero]

Andy Schleck took time on everyone on the Iozard descent.

That makes him a world class descender under your logic.

(But of course you hate Andy Schleck so you are going to give me an explanation that it was cos they let him)

And to save myself a post I will tell you now that the response to that is that its the same for GIlbert.

So decide. Either Andy is a world class descender or Gilbert isnt. Either one is going to hurt I know but you have to choose one

The peloton didn't chase after Andy on that descend. Besides, it was Monfort who took the descend for him. Andy just followed his line. And that's a fact. And yes, it makes a big difference if you have to descend on your own or if someone shows you the correct line to take. His gap was made on the climb and in the valley by the way, not the actual descend.

As for me having to decide whether Andy is a great descender or not... On the stage to Gap Andy got dropped and lost a minute on the descend while Gilbert was still in the Maillot Jaune group

Gilbert was followed by Samuel Sanchez on the descend of the Tourmalet and he couldn't even hold his wheel. You know, the one you guys often call a great descender.

And here is the official Tour de France live ticker of stage 13 last year:
16:55 - Gilbert At 25km To Go

"Gilbert is chasing a few extra points for the green jersey. He is 8’00" behind Roy with 25km to go. He has attacked the descent like dare-devil and it’s netted a gain of 1’00" on the peloton." He even gained a little bit of time on Hushovd in that descend(who was still a minute or so behind Roy at that point).


It's really simple logic here, Gilbert goes faster on descends because he weights more. Simple and easy logic. I wonder what arguments you have to call Nibbles a better descender. If he was better than Gilbert he would have out-descended him on the descend of the Sormano. But, it was Gilbert who was leading the descend and taking his own line while Nibbles couldn't get passed him and ultimatly crashed. Besides, the other guys in the group still couldn't follow Gilbert and they didn't crash.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Andy Schleck took time on everyone on the Iozard descent.

That makes him a world class descender under your logic.

(But of course you hate Andy Schleck so you are going to give me an explanation that it was cos they let him)

And to save myself a post I will tell you now that the response to that is that its the same for GIlbert.

So decide. Either Andy is a world class descender or Gilbert isnt. Either one is going to hurt I know but you have to choose one

They did let him. That's kinda obvious, Hitch.

 

[hrotha]

Indeed, Phil isn't as good as Nibali. He's much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRi8v7fI6Do&feature=related

Of all the dumb posts in this thread, this one's the dumbest.

 

[El Pistolero]

Of all the dumb posts in this thread, this one's the dumbest.

U mad bro?

As usual you have nothing constructive to add, so just don't post then, ok? Thank you.

 

[hrotha]

U mad bro?

As usual you have nothing constructive to add, so just don't post then, ok? Thank you.

I don't think you know what "u mad bro" means.

Anyway, since you want a more constructive comment: don't you think it's silly to generalize from ONE incident and say Nibali was going above his limits in that descent, and furthermore, to imply that if he hadn't he wouldn't have been able to follow Gilbert? Has Gilbert never crashed in a descend? Ever? There are many factors involved in a crash. Statistically, the many times when Nibali has dropped everyone in a descent hold more weight.

Gilbert is a very good descender. Personally I wouldn't put him above Nibali, but that's open to debate, as they've seldom clashed. But to use one single event to extrapolate and say Gilbert is a better descender because Nibali crashed that one time is just stupid.

 

[El Pistolero]

I don't think you know what "u mad bro" means.

Anyway, since you want a more constructive comment: don't you think it's silly to generalize from ONE incident and say Nibali was going above his limits in that descent, and furthermore, to imply that if he hadn't he wouldn't have been able to follow Gilbert? Has Gilbert never crashed in a descend? Ever? There are many factors involved in a crash. Statistically, the many times when Nibali has dropped everyone in a descent hold more weight.

Gilbert is a very good descender. Personally I wouldn't put him above Nibali, but that's open to debate, as they've seldom clashed. But to use one single event to extrapolate and say Gilbert is a better descender because Nibali crashed that one time is just stupid.

Luckily I haven't used just one descend to extrapolate and say Gilbert is a better descender I've been using numerous descends to show why Nibbles isn't a better descender than Gilbert in this thread. I used that one vid because as far as I'm aware it's the only one on one duel we have. If Nibbles was the better descender, as Hitch says, he wouldn't have let Gilbert dictate the line and pace. Of course, it's open to debate, that's why we're having a debate here

As for Gilbert and crashing. I'm not aware of any crashes on descends and I know for a fact that he never crashed at all in his first 3 years as a pro, but luck played a big part in that.

Statistically, Nibali has dropped eveyone many times more than someone like Hushovd, but that doesn't make him a better descender now does it? Nibali is a climber and is thus able to show off his descending skills a lot more than riders like Gilbert and Hushovd. After all, a descend usually comes after a mountain or hill Every single sprinter in the peloton can out-descend Nibali...

 

[Walkman]

Gilbert and Evans' EPIC descent in 2009 Tour of Romandie >> Must watch!

Is there a longer video were you can see them attack and also were you can see the finish?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Is there a longer video were you can see them attack and also were you can see the finish?

I'll have a look for you.

Can't find it but it is stage 5 of the 2009 tour of romandie. Evans rips the field apart on the climb with Phil in his wheel and they ride away until they are caught close to the finish line and Oscar Freire wins the stage. Was a really good stage.

 

[Walkman]

Yes.

Its already been posted.

That video is the only reason why I consider both Gilbert and EVans to be out of this world descenders. ITs truly special.

But they arent as good as Nibalil.

I am not denying that Nibali is a great descender but didn't Kreuzinger caught up with the top dogs at the Giro after an epic descent were he went downhill much faster than Nibali?

 

[Mellow Velo]

They are both considered, within the peloton, to be two of the best descenders.

Nick Roche:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...-splitting-the-peloton-to-shreds-2858778.html

Although, because Nibali is the superior climber, he has gained better race results than end in a downhill.
In ripost, we have that Gilbert rarely falls on a descent.

It's a kind of apples and pears debate.

Might as well stick with the Hushovd is better than both, but won't be around to make a difference, so what is the point? original, El P post.

I am not denying that Nibali is a great descender but didn't Kreuzinger caught up with the top dogs at the Giro after an epic descent were he went downhill much faster than Nibali?

Serves to highlight that it is often about risks and high stakes.

 

[Panda Claws]

At MSR 2011 Gilbert was having more trouble than Nibali or Cancellara to keep up with the group on the descend.

 

[cineteq]

Statistically, Nibali has dropped eveyone many times more than someone like Hushovd, but that doesn't make him a better descender now does it?

OMG this is so funny!!! Somebody wanna use it as a signature?

 

[The Hitch]

They did let him. That's kinda obvious, Hitch.

But they didn't let Gilbert when he was descending down the aubisque.

 

[El Pistolero]

But they didn't let Gilbert when he was descending down the aubisque.

They did, except Movistar of course. Though I used Aubisque in comparison with Hushovd's descend. Gilbert was going practically as fast as Hushovd, who is considered to be the best descender of the peloton.

 

[trevim]

I am not denying that Nibali is a great descender but didn't Kreuzinger caught up with the top dogs at the Giro after an epic descent were he went downhill much faster than Nibali?

Yes I think it was on the Finestre-Sestriere stage. To be fair, Nibali had cracked before the summit of Finestre and so he wasn't probably on his full capacities for that descent

 

[The Hitch]

Gilbert was going practically as fast as Hushovd, who is considered to be the best descender of the peloton.

Source and data please.

This is a 3 man team, right? So the clock would not stop until the last guy crossed the finish line. Team only as strong as the weakest link. Sorry team Nibs.

Because as Pistolero says

it makes a big difference if you have to descend on your own or if someone shows you the correct line to take.

In this team game Liqui have Nibali to guide them through the corners and thats better than having Hushovd or Gilbert or Cadel do it.

 

[greenedge]

The 3 BMC riders are better descenders but can't make it over the mountains as well. So Liquigas wins.

You honestly don't think Cadel can make it over mountains? Gilbert i would say on his current form would be able to stay with Sagan. And we last year saw that Hushovd won two stages on similar stages with climbs.

Sagan would be too tired 9 after sprinting )to go hunting for glory in the mountains anyways and he would probably have to help Nibali in the mountains . I did not know Capecchi was a good descender. Liquigas would also just set tempo on the climb then let Nibali go on the descent. That would probably mean they would come in 10 minutes later, not exhausting themselves.

In BMC they have 3 of the best descenders named in the thread ( i think ). Therefore i chose BMC.

It will be interesting to see what damage the can inflict on other teams on descents. If no attacks go Hushovd/ Gilbert could also really help Evans. Riders like Valverde, Samu and maybe Contador would also latch on.

 

[greenedge]

Nibali... more guts and surely needs to attack more than Cadel. I hope he skip the Giro this year.

It's interesting that stage 7 is MTF, 9 is the first ITT and the alps coming after stage 10.

I'm starting to think that this parcours are better than many thought. If Bruyneel and Schleck try some epic moves this gonna be good.

Yeah but if Nibali starts to be a danger Cadel would just chase him.
It makes for exciting racing those block of stages

 

[greenedge]

there won't be no downhill showdown

Yes there will not be. It will be the two teams working to try gain time ( with common interests ), dragging along a few others.

 

[greenedge]

Of course, why? Cause Liquigas won't do sh*t in the Tour. No one fears Nibali's descending skills anyway. I had a great laugh with him at the Giro last year. He's no Salvodelli, but sadly gets treaten like one. As for Sagan, he won't be able to follow the big boys uphill. Has proven that many times before. People vote for Liquigas because of that one Vuelta stage.

The poll is moot anyway as Hushovd likely won't do the Tour.

I think Hushovd will ( Ex WC mens' RR ) and he is a good rider who has been signed by BMC to win stages at the TDF and help Cadel ( a bit )

There was no real action on that climb so i see your point but that descent was awesome.

 

[greenedge]

As for Nibali well theres the Monte Grappa stage. 1 of the people who couldnt catch him was, well look at the poll.

Because Cadel was sick, had just been chasing back attacks and did not want to tow Basso to the finish.

 

[greenedge]

Sky are no mugs. They've got the likes of Eisel and EBH, for example, who are top notch descenders, too. (Those two ski. A lot of top descenders ski). Maybe they won't be their at the end of those stages, but maybe some of the riders you mention will be either.

Yeah but Wiggins is not and i am assuming Rogers, Froome, Uran and Porte are not either.

 

[Galic Ho]

Wow. Leave for a couple of months, come back when racing starts and this is what you get. Everyone who didn't vote for BMC is full of s#$t, delusional or on one hell of an acid trip. Seriously, go watch a bloody race and then look at the number of stage wins those 3 BMC guys pulled off last year. Then compare to Liquigas. I know which team has the calibre and records to back it up. They ain't based in Italy.

Going fast downhill at the Tour has produced next to nothing in recent years. It only worked on the Schlecks. No shock as their handling skills are practically the lowest in the entire peloton. If recent Tours are anything to go by Nibali will be too fatigued to go on the attack on a hill at the Tour. This ain't the Giro. He'd gain what...ten to twenty seconds at best on Evans if all his stars aligned and the gods shone their favour upon him. Yeah, real winning move. Ignoring the ignorance that his team would be helping him on a downhill section. Hasn't happened yet so I'll believe it when I see it.

Fairy tales people, fairy tales. Hushovd and Gilbert alone on a stage looking for a win is far more plausible than Liquigas making moves in the Tour. It's hysterical to think there are 40 plus people out there who would defy history and recent results and not back BMC. Liquigas have done sweet f$#k all at the Tour in the past few years. Maybe at the Giro, but the Tour....pull the other one. Sky are more likely to make moves than Liquigas. Nibali is a fine descender, but he ain't dropping Samu, Valverde or Evans. Even AC will keep him pegged nicely.

Keep drinking the bong water dreamers. Makes for a good laugh. Maybe when Liquigas get a Tour stage win from someone else other than Sagan (if they send him) then I'll contemplate them trying to make a move on GC. Stage win is the best they can go for and IMO, mostly a waste of time. They are there to keep up appearances. Focus on the Giro and Vuelta where they have a chance. There is a reason why they keep coming up empty at the Tour...they don't have the stuff to make the moves, so please, try not to convolute history with your delusions.

 

[Panda Claws]

You honestly don't think Cadel can make it over mountains? Gilbert i would say on his current form would be able to stay with Sagan. And we last year saw that Hushovd won two stages on similar stages with climbs.

Sagan would be too tired 9 after sprinting )to go hunting for glory in the mountains anyways and he would probably have to help Nibali in the mountains . I did not know Capecchi was a good descender. Liquigas would also just set tempo on the climb then let Nibali go on the descent. That would probably mean they would come in 10 minutes later, not exhausting themselves.

In BMC they have 3 of the best descenders named in the thread ( i think ). Therefore i chose BMC.

It will be interesting to see what damage the can inflict on other teams on descents. If no attacks go Hushovd/ Gilbert could also really help Evans. Riders like Valverde, Samu and maybe Contador would also latch on.

Sorry my bad. I didn't read the poll right.